Did Jesus ever Live ?

[jeffrey]

Michel, excellent post. I'll do some research myself tonight when I get home. This gets more interesting by the day..

 

[d.]

actually no

thank you, that explains everything.

 

[ProfLogic]

Rob, interesting and eye opening post. But a few questions. If Paul created Christianity, then the gospels where forged by him also? And what would be the purpose of him doing so? Was he not well to do, then with this new religion, cost him his life?

If I might comment, the main reason to write about Jesus, to me a ficticious hero similar to the epics in the pagan religion, (they also had one supreme god - epic on the babylonian creation) is during that time their society was being persecuted and enslaved. In order to get out of their predicament, what would make sense to unite people of the same hardships. Create a model character that the writers can use so that they can silently manipulate people in fighting for their cause. one of the biggest mistake was the writers were not creative enough since most their storyline are similar to earlier pagan writings. To me history has done this again and again and people have not changed. It is a very strong possibility that this was a great strategy to use to manipulate people without them knowing about it. I also talked to people who read the koran and they said there is no really difference in the writings/beliefs than what is in the bible. The big difference is jeus is a prophet. the Koran came 600 years after... It would be interesting to see if religion dissapears and see where it might lead humanity.

 

[Buttercup]

lly mapped, even just a few of his years, than Jesus should have connected to James. Also I have heard claims that the city of Nazareth came into being in 100-150 ad. Anybody have verification on when Nazareth became a town?

Information I found on the historicity of Nazareth. I would like to check the following out further as it sounds interesting. The following is posted another thread but I thought it answered some of your question here as well......


The existence of Nazareth in Jesus’ day had been doubted by critics—until its name showed up in a first-century synagogue inscription at Caesarea. Augustus’ census edicts (in connection with the Nativity) are borne out by an inscription at Ankara, Turkey, his famous Res Gestae ("Things Accomplished"), in which the Roman emperor proudly claims to have taken a census three times. That husbands had to register their families for the Roman census was mandated in census papyri discovered in Egypt.

Dr. Paul L. Maier is professor of Ancient History and chaplain at Western Michigan University-Kalamazoo, MI.



The Nazareth Farm Excavation

On a visit to Nazareth Hospital in November 1996, CSEC’s director Stephen Pfann identified an ancient winepress associated with agricultural terraces on the hospital grounds and the adjacent land. Potsherds found on the surface of the terraces dated from various periods beginning with the early-to-late Roman Period. (Early Roman Period….Late Second Temple Period / 63 BCE - 70 CE….addition, mine.)

A survey of the area was conducted in February 1997 by CSEC’s archaeological staff. Four seasons of excavation, licensed by the Israel Antiquities Authority and under the joint direction of Ross Voss and S. Pfann, have been carried out by CSEC, with the help of students and local volunteers. These excavations have confirmed the land to be a complete Roman Period terrace farm with a winepress, watchtowers, olive crushing stones, irrigation systems, and an ancient quarry, and have illuminated previously unknown aspects of terrace farming in the Galilee.
The character of the site indicates that the valley and its slopes likely comprised the property of a single family’s farm, which produced a variety of crops. Most of the extent of the original farm has been preserved. This farm remains the most important, and perhaps the only, witness to the life and livelihood of the ancient Nazarenes.
http://www.uhl.ac/NazarethVillage/nazareth.html

More……

http://www.comp-archaeology.org/NasarethBurialCult8000BC.htm

 

[d.]

I also talked to people who read the koran

why not read it yourself, prof?

http://www.al-islam.org/quran/

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm

 

[Sunstone]

isn't it possible that the man lived, but the myth around him was invented and borrowed from other traditions (which it in all honesty most probably was)?

actually no

Actually, yes.

(How many posts can we waste this way, one wonders?)

 

[d.]

I don't know if you could have evidence that someone did not exist.

you're probably right.

2) Paul made the story up.

sure. but it doesn't rule out that there was a real man that he built the story on, someone who'd made an impression he could build on. but sure, that's only speculation.

 

[Bishka]

I believe that Jesus Christ existed. Funny enough, the mention of His birthday. The LDS Church believes it was on the 6th of April. If you think about it, if it was really during Christmas, those 'shephard in the fields' wouldn't be out. That's in the middle of winter for goodness sake!

I believe that it was moved to around Christmas because the Catholic Church wanted to mesh the Pagan beliefs with the Christian beliefs as they have done with several holidays.

 

[d.]

The LDS Church believes it was on the 6th of April.

what do you base that belief on?

 

[Bishka]

what do you base that belief on?

Revelation given to Joseph Smith in the Doctrine and Covenants 20:1

Some take this verse to mean that He was born exactly 1830 years prior to the date, other's don't.

Harold B. Lee (p. 2) and Spencer W. Kimball (p. 54), have reaffirmed that April 6 is the true anniversary of Christ's birth, but have encouraged Church members to join with other Christians in observing Christmas as a special day for remembering Jesus' birth and teachings

 

[ProfLogic]

I believe that it was moved to around Christmas because the Catholic Church wanted to mesh the Pagan beliefs with the Christian beliefs as they have done with several holidays.

Do you happen to know why they did this? In my opinion, it would be easier to convert the pagans to christianity if they have something in common. One of the items that even makes me suspicious about Jesus is that no one ever pinpointed when he was born, as someone noted here the place where he was born did not even exist. The main reason that I can think of is, so no one can ever verify, thus the plan for deception would be easier to carry out. Believing that Jesus exist seems to be harmless to me, but when I talk to christians about my belief, I automatically get labeled as evil, that I can never agree on. If you know of a bible study that allows 2 way communication, let me know because I have a few questions on people that would have opened minds.

 

[d.]

Revelation given to Joseph Smith in the Doctrine and Covenants 20:1

ok, thank you.

 

[ProfLogic]

Does anybody have any information on the NT, when they were writing it that Peter and Paul had a disagreement on what the new religion should entail. If Jesus actually existed and ressurected, wouldn't there be a disagreement at all. Sounded like humans trying to create their own cult. The ressurection of body and soul, another suspicious but brilliant strategy. If there is no body, then no one would ever know. It is more and more sounding like a made up story for people to follow their cult. Jesus never existed.

 

[ProfLogic]

If Jesus existed, when is he ever going to return? The world had gone through numerous periods of violence. Christians once they had the upper hand murdering muslims (proven in history of Jerusalem), the crusades (anyone who had read the historical facts would know), Various inhumane empires, 2 world wars and today's society where even the children are not safe from their own parents. Why would Jesus not return to save the innocence, because he never existed. I would remind everyone one that according to the writings that Jesus came to save us from our sins. I believe with all the events in the past since Jesus time would say we had sinned more. This is why I am sure Jesus never existed.

 

[sojourner]

Does anybody have any information on the NT, when they were writing it that Peter and Paul had a disagreement on what the new religion should entail. If Jesus actually existed and ressurected, wouldn't there be a disagreement at all. Sounded like humans trying to create their own cult. The ressurection of body and soul, another suspicious but brilliant strategy. If there is no body, then no one would ever know. It is more and more sounding like a made up story for people to follow their cult. Jesus never existed.

The disagreement was about whether gentiles could be Christians without having to become Jewish first. This happened after the ascension. Disagreements are part of human interaction, and the Church is a human organism.

 

[sojourner]

If Jesus existed, when is he ever going to return? The world had gone through numerous periods of violence. Christians once they had the upper hand murdering muslims (proven in history of Jerusalem), the crusades (anyone who had read the historical facts would know), Various inhumane empires, 2 world wars and today's society where even the children are not safe from their own parents. Why would Jesus not return to save the innocence, because he never existed. I would remind everyone one that according to the writings that Jesus came to save us from our sins. I believe with all the events in the past since Jesus time would say we had sinned more. This is why I am sure Jesus never existed.

Jesus came to save us from the death that sin brings. He never promised to eradicate sin. As long as there is humanity, there will be sin. Jesus never promised perfection until after the parousia. One cannot measure the veracity of Jesus' existence by the actions of human beings.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

If Paul created Christianity, then the gospels where forged by him also? And what would be the purpose of him doing so?

Do you have any idea when Paul died? Do you have any idea of when the gospels are thought to have been written and by whom? It's really a bit sad ...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

For instance, the Thomas community split prior to the year 40. Their "brand" of Xy is quite different from the Pauline.

Why do you persist in pretending to know what you don't know? The gThom is dated anywhere from 50 to 140 CE, and there is zero evidence of a "Thomas community". Stop fabricating history - it's dishonest.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I believe he definantly lived. Why? Because I believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, and it says that he lived.

Now there's an argument! :no:

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

There are quite a few towns near where I live that have undergone name changes -- just within the last 150 years. Isn't it conceivable that Nazareth had previously been known by other names, as well?

Of course. So what?