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Did jesus die...???

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by killah247, Dec 4, 2004.

  1. killah247

    killah247 New Member

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    The Bible says that Jesus did not die on the cross, that his loving creator saved Jesus from the cross as confirmed in the Koran. God loves Jesus.
    The Jews claimed they killed him to prove he was a false prophet which they still believe...
    The Koran is here to unite the Jews and Christians and to have them submit their will to God, to be Muslims.
    Who are we to believe...???
     
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  2. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Which Bible says this? Not the one that the Christians use.

    Jesus died both spiritually and physically as a sacrifice for me.

    Romans 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
     
  3. Dadball

    Dadball Member

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    Matthew 27:50
    And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
    Mark 15:37
    With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last.
    Luke 23:46
    Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.
    John 19:33-34
    But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
     
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  4. croak

    croak Trickster

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    Well, you are saying that God puts His spirit in God? I thought they were the same.

    And one thing I'm wondering: Why would Jesus (as) pray to God if he was God? Why did he even pray at all?
     
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  5. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    If we understood EVERYTHING we would be God. I'll try to remember to ask him when I get to heaven.
     
  6. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    Speaking to Christians, you almost have a point!
    But not all are Christian, Yeshua was the Son of God, not Y H V H! He was flesh and blood, a mortal being. He died, was in the grave/tomb/hell for three days and three nights, his Father Y H V H raised him from the DEAD.
    Why did he pray? Because he was a Torah observant Jew! Obedient to his Father.:)
     
  7. Peace

    Peace Quran & Sunnah

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    Peace be with you,

    I will ask, why God needs somebody to die for the sake of His servants? And why God needs a son?
    God is so Great and so Just and so Merciful, you need no mediator to attain His pardon. All your sins would be erased once you ask His forgiveness with sincerity.
    God doesn't need a son nor a wife, otherwise He will have human characteristics. Allah is so above to have a son. Jesus peace be upon him is a Messenger of God and His servant.
    If Jesus pbuh as you said were god, how come that a god dies??!
     
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  8. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Peace,

    There are numerous scriptures that give us some insight into this. The book of Romans, the book of Hebrews and the Gospel of John would be great places to start.

    I don't pretend to fully understand the ancient issues, but blood had to be shed for our sins. It's either mine or Jesus'. Jesus loved me enough to do this for me, and for that I am eternally grateful.
     
  9. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    Netdoc do you have a non biblical source we can cross reference with? I have never actually seen a secondary collaborating source that did not draw from the Bible as its primary source and I was wondering if yall had any better luck than I?
     
  10. Dadball

    Dadball Member

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    [font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]Why Did Jesus Have To Die?

    [font=Arial,Helvetica]C.S. Lewis Explains the Atonement[/font]

    If you have wondered why God chose to redeem us in the way he did, why Jesus had to suffer and die, then perhaps this extract from CS Lewis' Mere Christianity (Fount Paperbacks, 1977) will help. The extract is from Chapter 4, The Perfect Penitent.[/size][/font]



    • [font=Arial,Helvetica]"We are told that Christ was killed for us, that His death has washed out our sins, and that by dying He disabled death itself. That is the formula. That is Christianity. That is what has to be believed. Any theories we build up as to how Christ's death did all this are, in my view, quite secondary: mere plans or diagrams to be left alone if they do not help us, and, even if they do help us, not to be confused with the thing itself. All the same, some of these theories are worth looking at.[/font]

      [font=Arial,Helvetica]The one most people have heard is the one about our being let off because Christ volunteered to bear a punishment instead of us. Now on the face of it that is a very silly theory. If God was prepared to let us off, why on earth did He not do so? And what possible point could there be in punishing an innocent person instead? None at all that I can see, if you are thinking of punishment in the police-court sense. On the other hand, if you think of a debt, there is plenty of point in a person who has some assets paying it on behalf of someone who has not. Or if you take "paying the penalty," not in the sense of being punished, but in the more general sense of "footing the bill," then, of course, it is a matter of common experience that, when one person has got himself into a hole, the trouble of getting him out usually falls on a kind friend.[/font]

      [font=Arial,Helvetica]Now what was the sort of "hole" man had gotten himself into? He had tried to set up on his own, to behave as if he belonged to himself. In other words, fallen man is not simply an imperfect creature who needs improvement: he is a rebel who must lay down his arms. Laying down your arms, surrendering, saying you are sorry, realising that you have been on the wrong track and getting ready to start life over again from the ground floor - that is the only way out of a "hole." This process of surrender - this movement full speed astern - is what Christians call repentance. Now repentance is no fun at all. It is something much harder than merely eating humble pie. It means unlearning all the self-conceit and self-will that we have been training ourselves into for thousands of years. It means undergoing a kind of death. In fact, it needs a good man to repent. And here's the catch. Only a bad person needs to repent: only a good person can repent perfectly. The worse you are the more you need it and the less you can do it. The only person who could do it perfectly would be a perfect person - and he would not need it.[/font]

      [font=Arial,Helvetica]Remember, this repentance, this willing submission to humiliation and a kind of death, is not something God demands of you before He will take you back and which He could let you off of if He chose: it is simply a description of what going back to Him is like. If you ask God to take you back without it, you are really asking Him to let you go back without going back. It cannot happen. Very well, then, we must go through with it. But the same badness which makes us need it, makes us unable to do it. Can we do it if God helps us? Yes, but what do we mean when we talk of God helping us? We mean God putting into us a bit of Himself, so to speak. He lends us a little of His reasoning powers and that is how we think: He puts a little of His love into us and that is how we love one another. When you teach a child writing, you hold its hand while it forms the letters: that is, it forms the letters because you are forming them. We love and reason because God loves and reasons and holds our hand while we do it. Now if we had not fallen, that would all be plain sailing. But unfortunately we now need God's help in order to do something which God, in His own nature, never does at all - to surrender, to suffer, to submit, to die. Nothing in God's nature corresponds to this process at all. So that the one road for which we now need God's leadership most of all is a road God, in His own nature, has never walked. God can share only what He has: this thing, in His own nature, He has not.[/font] [font=Arial,Helvetica]But supposing God became a man - suppose our human nature which can suffer and die was amalgamated with God's nature in one person - then that person could help us. He could surrender His will, and suffer and die, because He was man; and He could do it perfectly because He was God. You and I can go through this process only if God does it in us; but God can do it only if He becomes man. Our attempts at this dying will succeed only if we men share in God's dying, just as our thinking can succeed only because it is a drop out of the ocean of His intelligence: but we cannot share God's dying unless God dies; and he cannot die except by being a man. That is the sense in which He pays our debt, and suffers for us what He Himself need not suffer at all."[/font]
     
  11. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    Y H V H made provision for the downfall of man, Adam was perfect when Y H V H created him, but he succumbed to sin, we, then are born in sin, Yeshua is the Perfect(firster/second Adam), never sinned having the Holy Blood of the Father was the perfect atonement for mankinds sin.
    Y H V H needs nothing! man needed redemption. God provided what we needed.

    If Islamics have the same God, this is for you also. :162:
     
  12. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    We did?:sarcastic
     
  13. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    By default, they(Jews)chose Bar-Rabas.
     
  14. Peace

    Peace Quran & Sunnah

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    Of course we have the same God, we do worship the same God that you Christians worship as well as the Jews worship, for there is one and only one God who created us and the whole universe.

    Peace
     
  15. Peace

    Peace Quran & Sunnah

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    Could you tell me who wrote the book of Romans, the book of Hebrews...? They all have differents authors, John, Mathew...they are not the original text that God revealed to Prophet Jesus peace be upon him. Different men came and added what they want to the original text, they are the ones who introduced the trinity creed.
    Adam pbuh was created without parents, and Jesus Christ pbuh was created without a father, they are both created by a single word from our God which is "Be" and they were.
    God the Merciful had chosen Jesus pbuh among many to be a Prophet of God, to guide people to the right path, to call people to worship God the One who has no associate.

    Be sure, that on the day of the judgement Prophet Jesus peace be upon him will deny all the godly attributes you attribute to him.


    Peace
     
  16. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    do you have a source for that statement?
     
  17. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Hey Peace...

    God always works through faulty men to show us his real power.

    You might not accept it now, but during the final judgment you will see the mistake you made.
     
  18. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    Netdoc pretty please show us an example to accomodate that statement.
     
  19. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    if this were true, then i would have to ask why our canon does not prove the trinity at all.
     
  20. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    Other than the bible is there any independant collaborating source of Jesus death that does not use the Bible as a primary source? I ask this cause I have yet to find one and one of the biggest arguements I have seen in cyber space around Jesus death (cruxifiction) is the lack of collarborating sources outside of the Bible. In addition it is important to note that Paul, the one who reported on his death did not do so until years after the incident. Damn I was looking on religoustolerance.org for a source..but I cant find it ..out the door to work .....try to find one later....

    www.whychristanity.com/qa/about_thebible/wasnt_the_nt_written_hundreds_of_years_after_christ.htm

    that is a christian source. Maybe that will fly
     
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