Did God create evil?

[johnhanks]

Didn't those people worship God(s)? They must've gotten the idea from somewhere.

I don't think Tlaloc and Quetzalcoatl had a great deal in common with Yahweh.

Apparently...yes it was the best way to communicate with his people. The 3 major religions of the world are Abrahamic religions.

And yet while god was chatting with Moses and Samuel and Elijah, elsewhere in the world entire civilisations came and went without ever hearing the word...

 

[Tranquil Servant]

And yet while god was chatting with Moses and Samuel and Elijah, elsewhere in the world entire civilisations came and went without ever hearing the word...

If its not evident by now, then I should mention that I do believe in the Bible and I do believe there were Prophets before Noah and obviously after; I also believe, since God is our creator and did communicate directly with humans before (even before Noah), mankind has always had an natural inclination to believe in God.
I hate to disappoint but I do believe this story....
Genesis 11:9 That is why it was called Babel—because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth.
Romans 5:13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

 

[johnhanks]

If its not evident by now, then I should mention that I do believe in the Bible and I do believe there were Prophets before Noah and obviously after; I also believe, since God is our creator and did communicate directly with humans before (even before Noah), mankind has always had an natural inclination to believe in God.

A natural inclination to believe in supernatural higher powers, certainly. If the biblical despot you believe in really is and always has been the only real one in existence, I reiterate that he's made a pretty poor job of making himself known to humankind.

I hate to disappoint but I do believe this story....
Genesis 11:9 That is why it was called Babel—because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth.

You don't disappoint, I assure you. So you really believe that Native Australians, the Chinese, the Maya and the Polynesians got where they did by being supernaturally dispersed from the Middle East? And that all their own oral and written histories (not to mention the researches of modern ethnographers) count for nothing in the face of one particular myth from the scripture of some Middle Eastern Bronze Age nomads?

Romans 5:13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

If I interpret you correctly here - and I'm sure you'll correct me if I don't - then it really didn't matter if the vast majority of the world never heard god's word, because they wouldn't be punished for disobeying it. That raises the intriguing question of what good is done by anyone hearing it.

You do seem to be trying to have it both ways here. One the one hand you tell us how important it is that

he communicated with mankind in the many ways that he did in the past and left us his laws and words.

and on the other you tell us that the instances when he didn't do that really didn't matter.

 

[Rev Hydrogen]

Evil is a created (manmade term) for what is not good for ones self or creed. What is good for one is bad for another such is the law of the universe.

The only sin is ignorance.
Transcendence, the only salvation

 

[Hufflechuff]

1) It is a nonsensical claim..God is not merely human therefore he is not limited to the human perception and senses. 2) Yes he does know what it's like to experience being outside of God. 3) Yes he understands those who have no knowledge of God. That is why he communicated with mankind in the many ways that he did in the past and left us his laws and words.

1) If it doesn't make sense then it doesn't matter what He is 2) Firstly, you seem to know a lot about God that was not revealed in the Bible. Anyway, he cannot know what it feels like to personally experience being outside God 3) I didn't say "understand those who" I asked if he knows, that is personally and experientially. He obviously cannot.

Your right again...He does set the standards of what's good and evil which is whatever he approves or disapproves of.

So right and wrong do not exist, only a desire to please a superior being. How immoral.

Thanx for correcting my spelling error. Clearly you are sophisticated and educated. AND yes I do believe God knows the future because his Will (or plan) will be accomplished no matter what choices we make but he arranges or allows (with the help of Satan) our situation so that we can make our choices and our choices will determine our fate but God arranges our fate according to the choices we make. Our life is a spiritual test but our choices don't affect his plan because since he prearranges all our situations, our choices will still result in fulfilling his plan. AND how does the greatest Creator "get bored"?

That is a very confused argument. You say God (with the 'help of Satan'!?! :slap arranges our lives, but lets us choose, but he has already decided what we will choose. Having a plan and knowing the future are not the same thing.
How does the greatest (you mean 'only' surely?) Creator NOT get bored? You say He knows everything that could ever be, and that is the way He planned it. He faces no challenges, never has to strive, never fails or succeeds, gets no surprises, has no peers, has nothing new to learn, will not fall in love. Never, for all eternity.
:sleep:

 

[Ouroboros]

How does the greatest (you mean 'only' surely?) Creator NOT get bored? You say He knows everything that could ever be, and that is the way He planned it. He faces no challenges, never has to strive, never fails or succeeds, gets no surprises, has no peers, has nothing new to learn, will not fall in love. Never, for all eternity.
:sleep:

I've argued that exact same point before. I hope you get through better than I ever did.

Imagine, God knowing what he will do tomorrow, how can he choose anything different than he already knows he will do? His foreknowledge about his own actions makes him deterministic (like a robot). Only by being presented by challenges (as you said) and surprises can a being have a choice or present free will. Knowing the future will undo the freedom. There's a freedom in not knowing.

 

[Pappillion001]

Because he's omniscient.Which means he knows everything; he knows the past, present, and future; he knows all; he knows everything known and unknown to us human. He is not mere human. AND he knows the affects of our causes. I personally don't know of anyone else who knows that much.

He appears to have not known man would be such a disappointment. God decided that all flesh should be killed for ironically, being to violent. God was sorry or regretted that his creation had become this way. Did he not know this would be the outcome? If so then why was it necessary to permit so many to be born only to be drowned or live a life in such a violent world? If he did not know then he is not omniscient

 

[Tranquil Servant]

A natural inclination to believe in supernatural higher powers, certainly. If the biblical despot you believe in really is and always has been the only real one in existence, I reiterate that he's made a pretty poor job of making himself known to humankind.

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

You don't disappoint, I assure you. So you really believe that Native Australians, the Chinese, the Maya and the Polynesians got where they did by being supernaturally dispersed from the Middle East? And that all their own oral and written histories (not to mention the researches of modern ethnographers) count for nothing in the face of one particular myth from the scripture of some Middle Eastern Bronze Age nomads?

Yes I do believe in the story of the Tower of Babel. However my understanding or interpretation could be incorrect. From what I know the oldest known civilization was the Sumerian; maybe people did occupy others parts of the world before that; maybe they didn't; maybe they got the idea for worshiping God(s) from stories passed down by Noah; maybe they didn't. Either way it is irrelevant; I only know what the Bible tells me. I can't determine whether or not God communicated enough with mankind throughout the world during ancient times because I only know what the Bible tells me. Obviously, the earliest stories of the Bible were not recorded as they happened; they were the stories which were passed down throughout generations and the stories that God wanted the prophets to remember and record. We don't know if there were other times in which he communicated with mankind; we only know what was recorded. All I can say is IMO in this day and age it is evident that God did communicate enough with mankind because as I said, the three major religions of the world are Abrahamic.

If I interpret you correctly here - and I'm sure you'll correct me if I don't - then it really didn't matter if the vast majority of the world never heard god's word, because they wouldn't be punished for disobeying it.

I believe everyone will be judged by God justly and with mercy.

That raises the intriguing question of what good is done by anyone hearing it.

.....It's not good for God; it's good for us.If the teachings and laws of God were never taught, we would still have human sacrifices and all kinds of savagery ravaging the world. Mankind would've destroyed itself a long time ago. Even now, with all the laws, education, and moral teachings we have and we're only a nuclear war away from destroying the world.

You do seem to be trying to have it both ways here. One the one hand you tell us how important it is that.....
and on the other you tell us that the instances when he didn't do that really didn't matter.

I didn't tell anyone it didn't matter. I gave a verse from the Bible which means a person can't be accused of disobeying a law they don't have. Also, God allowed his teachings, words, and laws to survive for this long whether people agree on it's inerrancy and interpretations or not; the majority of people agree that the majority of it is God's attempt to communicate with mankind; so if God allowed it to survive and spread to this extent, then it is important and does matter. But then again that's just my POV.

 

[johnhanks]

From what I know the oldest known civilization was the Sumerian; maybe people did occupy others parts of the world before that; maybe they didn't;

No maybes: there were people living in Australia, China and the Americas long before the rise of Sumerian civilisation.

... maybe they got the idea for worshiping God(s) from stories passed down by Noah; maybe they didn't.

Let's for a moment stretch credulity to its limit and pretend that they did. If so, the conception of god that was passed on had been distorted out of all recognition by the time it got to China or Mesoamerica. Just backs up my original point - that god made a pretty poor job of making himself known to humankind.

All I can say is IMO in this day and age it is evident that God did communicate enough with mankind because as I said, the three major religions of the world are Abrahamic.

This leaves a little under half of the world's population following non-Abrahamic (presumably false) religions or no religion at all. You and your god seem easily satisfied: complacent might be a better word.

If the teachings and laws of God were never taught, we would still have human sacrifices and all kinds of savagery ravaging the world.

Several Mesoamerican civilisations were heavily into human sacrifice, over 1000 years after the alleged crucifixion (human sacrifice?) of Jesus. Somehow "the teachings and laws of God" had passed them by. At risk of tedious repetition, it seems god made a pretty poor job of making himself known to humankind.

 

[Vouthon]

I would say "No", God did not create evil because in itself evil does not "exist".

Consider light and darkness, often used to describe good and evil.

Light is a real property of the universe. There are light particles - or more properly called photons - and we can measure them in units. There are no particles or units of darkness. One cannot measure darkness because it doesn't actually exist, it is actually just the lack of light in a specific place.

In the same way: heat and hold.

There is no such thing as coldness. We can measure and calculate heat, according to degrees or Celsius because it is real. Heat is given off from the sun. Coldness is not a thing in itself, rather it is a human being's perception of the lack of heat, just as darkness is a human being's perception of the lack of light.

In the same way we must not fall under the illusion that God created evil. It is non-existence, in reality there is only good and everything in creation in essence is pure goodness. However human beings can become deprived of our inherent goodness; we can become ill and sick of heart and therefore we become deprived of the good.

Evil is not natural. It is the deprivation, lack or absence of natural good. One who lacks goodness, lacks being and becomes something less than himself; what he or she was created to be. The less good one is, the less truly human one is.

There is no such thing as evil. It is the human mind's perception of the lack of good in a person, situation or existent reality.

God did not cause nor create evil; it is rather a lack or deficiency of his created natural order - however he is just as much present in evil acts and the people committing them as he is anywhere. There is no duality. God is is Existence Itself, Being Itself, ISNESS. So God is present even in the absence of good.

"...God presents himself in the inmost depths of my soul. I understand not only that he is present, but also how he is present. I have seen the One who is, and how He is the Being of all creatures. God is present in everything that exists, in a devil and a good angel, in heaven and hell, in good deeds and in adultery and murder, in the beautiful and the ugly. Therefore, while I am in this Truth, I take as much delight in seeing and understanding his presence in a devil and the act of adultery as I do in an angel and a good deed. The world is pregnant with God...He who loves with not only a part of himself, but the whole, transforms himself into the thing beloved..."

- Blessed Angela of Foligna (c. 1248 – 1309), Catholic mystic

The whole point, nonetheless, is that evil is not a thing; it does not actually exist. It is not even nothingness - which means not being anything created - but it is actually not real. There is no evil. Evil acts are acts where goodness is absent. By this I do not mean nothingness, but rather that it is a person who lacks what is truly proper to him and God-given, to be good.

Is God in darkness? Surely, but he did not create darkness. He created light, and he created space, and darkness is a space which lacks light, and so the human eye perceives it as a thing, when it is in fact not real.

So God is fully present in the space which lacks light but he is not present in darkness as a concept because darkness is a human seeing of space which lacks light and wrongly perceiving it as a thing in opposition to light when it is in fact only a space lacking light.

Darkness is not a creation of God but a subjective human experience of the lack of light in a place. In the same way, evil is the subjective human experience of a lack of good in a person or situation, the good being natural and God-created just like light.

The human mind misunderstands this and thinks that there is a thing called darkness which is the opposite from light, just like the colours white and black, and so the erroneous belief in "dualism" is born - Light vs Darkness, Good God vs bad god (devil), rather than perceiving the underlying unity of all reality in God, in Oneness, in wholeness.

 

[Hufflechuff]

Nice post Vouthon. But I think some of it isn't sound.

You are right - darkness is an absence of visible light. Light is simply a range of radiation waves that our eyes have developed to be able to see. There is a whole spectrum that our eyes do not see. But some creatures can see 'colours' that we cannot. If we had developed differently we might see, say, ultraviolet rays, x-rays, microwaves. What we see as darkness could be visible to some other creature that had developed differently. These waves are everywhere - so 'light' is everywhere, we just can't see most of it. In effect then much light appears to us as darkness. If darkness does not exist then neither does light - there is only varying waves of radiation.

We can draw comparisons to good and evil but we must remember it is only a comparison, not exactly the same thing. If we say that evil does not exist because it is only an action that does not meet our current, subjective, sensitivities, then we must say the same for good - it is not good it just happens to meet our current morals. Slavery used to be considered good, now it isn't. Old men marrying children used to be (and in some places still is) considered good, but most places now feel it isn't. As I have previously said in this thread, if good is simply what God (or man) approves of then there is no good and no evil, only pleasing or displeasing.

You seem to take a deist view - god is existence, ISNESS. This is different to the concept of God expressed elsewhere in this thread. Giving the name 'God' to existence makes the word meaningless. Why not stick with 'consciousness' or 'life'. There is no reason to conflate a voyeuristic isness-god with a god who judges right and wrong and takes an interest in peoples' lives.

This discussion (I think) is centred around the argument that if god created everything then he created evil. You might draw the comparison that he created 'light' that we cannot see.

 

[natasha levchenko]

Nice post Vouthon. But I think some of it isn't sound.

You are right - darkness is an absence of visible light. Light is simply a range of radiation waves that our eyes have developed to be able to see. There is a whole spectrum that our eyes do not see. But some creatures can see 'colours' that we cannot. If we had developed differently we might see, say, ultraviolet rays, x-rays, microwaves. What we see as darkness could be visible to some other creature that had developed differently. These waves are everywhere - so 'light' is everywhere, we just can't see most of it. In effect then much light appears to us as darkness. If darkness does not exist then neither does light - there is only varying waves of radiation.

We can draw comparisons to good and evil but we must remember it is only a comparison, not exactly the same thing. If we say that evil does not exist because it is only an action that does not meet our current, subjective, sensitivities, then we must say the same for good - it is not good it just happens to meet our current morals. Slavery used to be considered good, now it isn't. Old men marrying children used to be (and in some places still is) considered good, but most places now feel it isn't. As I have previously said in this thread, if good is simply what God (or man) approves of then there is no good and no evil, only pleasing or displeasing.

You seem to take a deist view - god is existence, ISNESS. This is different to the concept of God expressed elsewhere in this thread. Giving the name 'God' to existence makes the word meaningless. Why not stick with 'consciousness' or 'life'. There is no reason to conflate a voyeuristic isness-god with a god who judges right and wrong and takes an interest in peoples' lives.

This discussion (I think) is centred around the argument that if god created everything then he created evil. You might draw the comparison that he created 'light' that we cannot see.

really unexpected. God created evil...? I suppose, since he gave us the choice what to do or not . if we have a bad choice it often results in misdemeanor. if we had no choice we would be like robots.

 

[Tranquil Servant]

......it seems god made a pretty poor job of making himself known to humankind.

OK ......like I said, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I can't convince you and It seems as though you don't even believe in God. I will say this, you shouldn't worry about those who never received the word of God 'cause I'm sure they will be judged by God accordingly (if in fact people will not be held accountable for disobeying a law they never new); rather you should worry about yourself and prepare your justification in case you are judged by God.

 

[Tranquil Servant]

1) If it doesn't make sense then it doesn't matter what He is 2) Firstly, you seem to know a lot about God that was not revealed in the Bible. Anyway, he cannot know what it feels like to personally experience being outside God 3) I didn't say "understand those who" I asked if he knows, that is personally and experientially. He obviously cannot.

1) It doesn't make sense to you....and who or what God is, does matter to me.
2) 1 Corinthians 2:9-11
9 However, as it is written:
“What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived” [a] —the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
3) He could know if he himself became man.

So right and wrong do not exist, only a desire to please a superior being. How immoral.
That is a very confused argument. You say God (with the 'help of Satan'!?! :slap arranges our lives, but lets us choose, but he has already decided what we will choose. Having a plan and knowing the future are not the same thing.

History repeats itself and mankind or human nature is predictable. Who would know this more than God.
Matthew 7:13 [ The Narrow and Wide Gates ] “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
Matthew 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
God always sets the paths before us but the decisions are ours to make. Plus, what would really be immoral is if we had a Creator who struck us dead anytime anyone disobeyed him; like the way many (human) rulers have done throughout history.

How does the greatest (you mean 'only' surely?) Creator NOT get bored? You say He knows everything that could ever be, and that is the way He planned it. He faces no challenges, never has to strive, never fails or succeeds, gets no surprises, has no peers, has nothing new to learn, will not fall in love. Never, for all eternity.
:sleep:

Humans are creative too but God is the most creative. I believe God is (the best way to explain) a step (or two) ahead of us which would mean that he has a lot of responsibility but even if that's not the case and he made everything and is now just watching everything play out; it would be like watching a movie...I like watching movies (just kidding). Anyway, time doesn't exist for God and how free will and God's will balance out is something we will never know. God willing we'll find out after death.

 

[johnhanks]

OK ......like I said, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

No offence, but this is a rather weak response. More than just stating an opinion, I've given numerous counter-examples which contradict your assertions, and you haven't addressed these at all.

I can't convince you and It seems as though you don't even believe in God.

I had assumed that was obvious.

I will say this, you shouldn't worry about those who never received the word of God 'cause I'm sure they will be judged by God accordingly (if in fact people will not be held accountable for disobeying a law they never new);

Oh, I don't worry about them, as the judgement you refer to will not take place. I still find it puzzling, though, that you tell us how wonderful and important it is that god has communicated his laws to the peoples of the world, while tacitly acknowledging that not only have most people through history never heard of them, but they will have suffered no consequences from being overlooked.

... rather you should worry about yourself and prepare your justification in case you are judged by God.

But what if we're both wrong and the One True God turns out to be Quetzalcoatl? He's going to be pretty miffed at your failure to sacrifice your neighbours to him...

I think it's pretty clear now that this exchange has run its course and neither of us is saying anything new. Feel free to have the last word.

 

[Hufflechuff]

1) It doesn't make sense to you....and who or what God is, does matter to me.
2) 1 Corinthians 2:9-11
9 However, as it is written:
“What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived” [a] —the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
3) He could know if he himself became man.
History repeats itself and mankind or human nature is predictable. Who would know this more than God.
Matthew 7:13 [ The Narrow and Wide Gates ] “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
Matthew 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
God always sets the paths before us but the decisions are ours to make. Plus, what would really be immoral is if we had a Creator who struck us dead anytime anyone disobeyed him; like the way many (human) rulers have done throughout history.
Humans are creative too but God is the most creative. I believe God is (the best way to explain) a step (or two) ahead of us which would mean that he has a lot of responsibility but even if that's not the case and he made everything and is now just watching everything play out; it would be like watching a movie...I like watching movies (just kidding). Anyway, time doesn't exist for God and how free will and God's will balance out is something we will never know. God willing we'll find out after death.

No, sorry, you've chanegd the arguments. Even if God made himself man, he would not be unaware of his existence. If he observed the life of this man and felt was this man ws feeling he would still be experiencing that as a deity, aware of his own exostence.
You say god sets a path before us but doesn't know what will happen. In that case then he doesn't know the future - but you said he does. Which is it?

According to the Bible God struck plenty of people dead. Even worse he condemns many to an eternity in Hell. No man ever did that to another man.

What do yuo mean by time doesn't exist for God. It must otherwise he could not interact with us. All you are doing is trying to place god outside of any argument in an attempt to make him un-disprovable.

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

OK ......like I said, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I can't convince you and It seems as though you don't even believe in God. I will say this, you shouldn't worry about those who never received the word of God 'cause I'm sure they will be judged by God accordingly (if in fact people will not be held accountable for disobeying a law they never new); rather you should worry about yourself and prepare your justification in case you are judged by God.

If I disbelieve in an all-powerful Elf, should I be afraid that he might someday pay me a visit and pay the price for my disbelief?

 

[Tranquil Servant]

If I disbelieve in an all-powerful Elf, should I be afraid that he might someday pay me a visit and pay the price for my disbelief?

...I wouldn't know since the Almighty I believe in isn't an elf but you're entitled to believe in whatever you want; just like I'm entitled.

 

[gnostic]

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

If God is the ultimate source, first cause, and the One of everything, beginning, duration, end, and so forth, then God is the source of good and evil. Nothing can exist outside of God, or God will be less than the greatest.

The problem is rather what the term "evil" means. Evil seems to mean more than just harm to humans. Evil is also chaos, calamity, disruption, separation, etc. In essence, I think it mostly means "whatever we currently don't like or approve of in society." During the Inquisition, people didn't (in general, or publicly) declare torture being evil, but rather means necessary to a good end (salvation of the soul). So "what is evil?" is probably

I was going to use the quote from Isaiah, but I don't I could have said it better.

Well, done. Here, is a frubal...on the house. :coffee2: Just don't choke on it. :spit:

 

[gnostic]

I was going to start on a new topic on the question of evil.

Could god have created evil?

I would say "yes", if you seriously believe that god created everything.

I agreed with everything that ouroboros wrote in post #2 (which I had already quote from him. Bit I would like to add the following points.

When I look at it, good and evil are really abstract.

God, and I mean any deity, and not just the abrahamic god, can be evil, just as much as good. God (generic god) can even be both good and evil. God can also be destroyer (like Genesis 6-8, the Flood, and the bringer of the apocalypse in Revelation) as well as the creator.

In some other ancient religions, there have been deities for good and deities for evil. Just because one side were evil, doesn't make the evil deities any less of a "god".

But to define a god by its goodness or wickedness seem futile and meaningless since a) there are no evidence to support their existences, and b) good and evil are subjective attributes, like the words - perfect, beauty, opinion.

Evil is also chaos, calamity, disruption, separation, etc.

Yeah, I can agree that evil might mean calamity or chaos.

But I believed that chaos is just as natural as order, perhaps even more so than order.

Calamity can also be natural too. Dangerous, yes, and we do fear calamity, but nevertheless quite natural. Calamity, like earthquake, tsunami, thunderstorm, tornado and hurricane may all be natural disasters, they are still natural.