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Featured Did Christ really exist ?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Neuropteron, Nov 26, 2020.

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  1. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

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    "Jürgen Habermas (UK: /ˈhɑːbərmæs/, US: /-mɑːs/;[4] German: [ˈjʏʁɡn̩ ˈhaːbɐmaːs];[5][6] born 18 June 1929) is a German philosopher and sociologist in the tradition of critical theory and pragmatism. His work addresses communicative rationality and the public sphere." - Jürgen Habermas - Wikipedia
     
  2. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Three kings didn't visit Horus when he was born. The Bible doesn't actually state the number of magi that came to visit Jesus when he was born. Horus didnt have 12 disciples. He wasn't betrayed by a friend.
     
  3. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

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    Isn't it clear by now that @Skywalker is a bot (or has serious mental difficulties)? No sane person can be that non sequitur.
     
  4. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Paul was healed by God. The miracles in the New Testament were done for the glory of God, not for the glory of people.
     
  5. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Mark's Jesus is an ordinary Jew, not descended from David, who becomes the son of God only when JtB washes away his sins; at which point the heavens open and God declares that Jesus is now [his] son, in the same manner that [he] had adopted David (Psalm 2:7, Acts 13:33).

    The Jesus of Matthew and the Jesus of Luke are both born of a virgin who conceives by divine insemination. Angels foretell, untenable and incompatible genealogies to show Jesus as descended from David are provided, and other colorful fictions are provided like Matthew's 'taxation census' and 'Massacre of the Innocents' in order to move Jesus through various episodes that the authors regard as "messianic prophecy".

    The Jesus of Paul and the Jesus of John pre-exist in heaven with God, and regardless of Genesis, each of them creates the material universe, which is what the gnostic demiurge does because the gnostic god is absolutely pure spirit unsullied by materiality. They are both descended from David, so it appears they were born in the usual way to Jewish parents, but there are no details.

    However, all five of them deny that they're God and never once claim to be God. The Trinity doctrine isn't devised until the 4th century CE.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  6. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    I don't think our views are identical, but they're not that far apart.
     
  7. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The same language is used about Jesus that is used about Yahweh in the Old Testament. Did Jesus Claim to Be God When He Ascribed to Himself Divine Titles and Attributes?

     
    #227 Skywalker, Nov 30, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
  8. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    As I said, all five versions of Jesus (those of Paul and the respective authors of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John) deny that they're God and never once claim to be God.

    (I can't read the rest of your post. Likely you have a format error ─ start by checking that all [/quote] commands have exactly that form, then the format of and square brackets around identifiers.)
     
  9. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    commands have exactly that form, then the format of and square brackets around identifiers.)[/QUOTE]
    Click on click to expand.

    Where do the four gospels have Jesus denying that He is God?
     
  10. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    commands have exactly that form, then the format of and square brackets around identifiers.)[/QUOTE]

    What post has format error with quotes?
     
  11. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Paul:

    I Corinthians 8:6 Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

    Philippians 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

    Mark:

    Mark 12:29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; 30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ [...]
    32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;​

    Matthew:

    Matthew 20:23 He said to them, “You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

    Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”
    Luke:

    Luke 18: And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”
    John:

    John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

    John 10:29My Father [...] is greater than all”.

    John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

    John 20:17I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
     
  12. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The Bible verse about God the Father doesn't contradict that Jesus is part of the Trinity. Jesus talking about God the Father doesn't mean He isn't God the Son.
     
  13. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was trying to influence the person to recognize Christ's divinity. Jesus was saying the God the Father sent him. which doesnt deny the Trinity. The Father being greater than Jesus is a reference to office not essence. The only true God is a reference to seeking and having a relationship with God and not following religious rituals. John 20:17 is similar to Jesus praying not my will by thine be done. That affirms, not denies, the Trinity.
     
  14. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Why do you think they are fictional and not compatible? I think they can be compatible, but neither of them is not the whole story.
     
  15. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus is a circumcised Jew and we're talking about the single God of the Jews, the God of the covenant, not the God of the Christians. The Christians don't invent the Trinity doctrine till the 4th century CE.

    So don't expect Jesus in the NT to discuss the Trinity. The idea of a triune god does not exist in the first century CE and accordingly is not found in the NT.
     
  16. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Some Christians dont believe in the Trinity.
     
  17. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    First, if they're genealogies of Joseph then they're irrelevant since in Matthew and Luke, Joseph is expressly NOT Jesus' father. Genealogies are for the father. There's nothing to suggest either is for Mary. There's nothing to suggest they're historical instead of clumsy attempts to have the Christian messiah descended from David. Into the bargain, as two genealogies of the same person, they're entirely incompatible.

    Note too that Mark's Jesus, unlike the Jesuses of Paul, Matthew, Luke and John, is not descended from David and says you don't have to be.
     
  18. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, that's the smart call ─ the Trinity doctrine is called, by the churches themselves, a "mystery in the strict sense", which means it "cannot be known by unaided reason apart from revelation nor cogently demonstrated by reason once it has been revealed" ─ their words, not mine ─ ie is incoherent.
     
  19. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    In kindness and regret, I am putting you on ig.
     
  20. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Jesus saying the Father is greater than I would be like me saying that the president of the United States is greater than me. He's greater in military capability but he's no more of a man than me.
     
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