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Did Christ really exist ?

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Skywalker

Well-Known Member
And wrote his dissertation. Is not that a little funny?Gary Robert Habermas is an American New Testament scholar and Christian apologist who frequently writes and lectures on the resurrection of Jesus. He is a Distinguished Professor of Philosophy and Theology at Liberty University. Wikipedia

Liberty University (LU) is a private evangelical Christian university in Lynchburg, Virginia. It was founded by Jerry Falwell and Elmer L. Towns in 1971. Although the university's physical campus is in Lynchburg, most of its students are online. It is one of the largest evangelical Christian universities in the world and one of the largest private non-profit universities in the United States, measured by student enrollment.

I confused him with psychologist Gary Collins because they have a similar name and beliefs.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
The Bible is not unreliable. It was written by sixty six different authors with the same message of seeking God. The Old and New Testament have the same message of an advocate redeemer mediator messiah.
Your response to ONE WORD while ignoring the content of my post is somehow adequate?
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Paul lost the world and gained his soul. He didn't gain the world by following Jesus. That's why Paul is credible.

So some say if they decided to believe no matter what.
Why the phony snake story ? If he was real.
Why is he special and all the thousands of other self styled holy men are self seeking fakes, or crazy?

What do other "holy men" get that isn't true for Paul ?
 

Regiomontanus

Ματαιοδοξία ματαιοδοξιών! Όλα είναι ματαιοδοξία.
In fact, the historicity of each has been questioned.
In fact, being 'real' in no way insures that the attendant story is real.

Sure, just like Trump questions the recent election outcome- does not make the allegation true. :)

Seriously, nearly all scholars of eary Christianity (even atheists like Bart Ehrman) think Jesus of Nazareth was an historical figure.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
So some say if they decided to believe no matter what.
Why the phony snake story ? If he was real.
Why is he special and all the thousands of other self styled holy men are self seeking fakes, or crazy?

What do other "holy men" get that isn't true for Paul ?

Paul talked about God loving His creation so much that He made a way for them to be reconciled. The Bible is the only holy book that talks about us being sinners who need a Savior. Mythology doesn't talk about the holiness of God and the sinfulness of people.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Paul talked about God loving His creation so much that He made a way for them to be reconciled. The Bible is the only holy book that talks about us being sinners who need a Savior. Mythology doesn't talk about the holiness of God and the sinfulness of people.

In all kindness, I have to wonder how you
process what you read, there is very little contact between what I say and your responses.

God reconciled the snake story into a true story?

What are you even talking about?
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
In all kindness, I have to wonder how you
process what you read, there is very little contact between what I say and your responses.

God reconciled the snake story into a true story?

What are you even talking about?

The snake is the devil. God used the snake to test Adam and Eve. Without a test they couldn't really have free will.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I don't think he's a Christian and if he is, he's no less reliable than the atheist sources you believe.

You don't know if you're Christian?

You think it is atheist sources that point out there are no vipers on the island where he was "bitten "? ;D

Weird
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Paul lost the world and gained his soul. He didn't gain the world by following Jesus. That's why Paul is credible.
He had the leadership of Christians till he lived more than even the apostles. What he wrote was a blurb, and it was good (Corinthians). I am an atheist.I do not believe in existence of soul.
I confused him with psychologist Gary Collins because they have a similar name and beliefs.
Yeah, Gary Collins: These include Christian Counseling: A Comprehensive Guide, How to be a People Helper, The Biblical Basis of Christian Counseling, and Christian Coaching: Helping Others Turn Potential into Reality. Gary was general editor of the thirty-volume Resources for Christian Counseling series of professional counseling books mostly published in the 1980s, the Word Christian Counseling Library of cassette tapes, and the twelve-volume Contemporary Christian Counseling series of books that appeared in the early 1990s. In December 2001 NavPress published Gary's book Christian Coaching, a book that was revised and updated for publication in 2009. The third edition of Christian Counseling (revised, expanded and completely updated) was published by Thomas Nelson publishers in 2007, followed by an accompanying Casebook of Christian Counseling, also published by Nelson.

First thing we do is to check the source. Half the things become clear on checking the source. What else could Gary Habermas or Gary Collins would write!
Paul talked about God loving His creation so much that He made a way for them to be reconciled. The Bible is the only holy book that talks about us being sinners who need a Savior. Mythology doesn't talk about the holiness of God and the sinfulness of people.
Yeah, all Christians being sinners right from birth and need a savior - who else but Jesus. Paul was good at frightening the people.
 
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Audie

Veteran Member
I thought you were talking about Genesis. Paul had a thorn in the flesh that God used to keep him humble.

So what about Paul's phony snake story that I mentioned two or three times already?

Self promoting lie that it was.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Sure, just like Trump questions the recent election outcome- does not make the allegation true.
To compare Trump with the likes of Carrier, Price, and Thompson does not even rise to the level of stupid.

Seriously, nearly all scholars of eary Christianity (even atheists like Bart Ehrman) think Jesus of Nazareth was an historical figure.
As do I. You're embarrassing yourself.
 
So what about Paul's phony snake story that I mentioned two or three times already?

Self promoting lie that it was.

Paul didn't write Acts though, that was 'Luke'.

Dubious historicity or not, someone else writing about you long after you were dead is hardly a 'self-promoting lie'.
 
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Skywalker

Well-Known Member
So what about Paul's phony snake story that I mentioned two or three times already?

Self promoting lie that it was.

Paul's teachings line up with first century sources and he said embarrassing details about himself as a person and he never bragged about his crazy life. Paul was humble. God allowed him to have strongholds to keep him humble. Even some Muslims support Paul being an apostle. The Historical Case for Paul’s Apostleship: And a Critique of Muslim Arguments

The Historical Case for Paul’s Apostleship
And a Critique of Muslim Arguments

Keith Thompson

Introduction
Section 1. Positive Historical Case for Paul’s Apostleship
Section 2. Critiquing the Muslim Misuse of the Ebionites
Section 3. Early Muslim Sources Affirming the Apostleship of Paul
Conclusion


Introduction

Many Muslim critics assert that the Apostle Paul was not a true Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ. They erroneously argue that Paul came in after the real Apostles and took over the scene corrupting Christianity with new foreign teachings. Many Muslims assert that the original message of Jesus and his true followers, their supposed Islamic teaching, was in complete disagreement with Paul’s “new” theology. In contrast to this modern Islamic view the Christian position is that history demonstrates Paul was truly converted to Christianity. Christians argue that the evidence shows he was accepted by the original Apostles and by the earliest Christians as a genuine convert with sound theology who was given an important mission from Christ himself.

In this article I will weigh the evidence that both sides offer. When investigating historical issues it is important to use a reliable method to come to truth. I will be appealing to what is known as the historical method in this article as I argue that there are many strong reasons to affirm Paul’s apostleship and no strong reasons to deny Paul’s apostleship. I will utilize historical principles including the concept of multiple independent attestation, early accounts (i.e., the oldest source material), eyewitness testimony, disinterest statements, and the criterion of embarrassment. It is also important to speak to the lack of early reliable evidence for the modern Muslim view concerning Paul. Lastly I will demonstrate that the modern Islamic polemic against Paul is not consistent with many early Muslim traditions which affirm that Paul was in fact viewed as a true Apostle. I believe that Muslims are forced to reject Paul and blame him in trying to explain why their Quran affirms Christian Scriptures(1) and yet teaches that Christianity has false teachings. To the Muslim Paul corrupting Christianity serves as reconciliation to this problem. However, we will see that their rejection of Paul and their accusations are completely erroneous.

Section 1. Positive Historical Case for Paul’s Apostleship
When historians use the historical method they will consult the earliest sources regarding the historical issue in question. The earliest sources pertaining to Paul are the 1st century documents that were canonized into the Bible in the 4th century. The Bible is not one source - it is a compiled collection of many separate documents written over a span of about 1400 years. The 1st century texts that were canonized into the New Testament have much to say concerning the Apostle Paul and are thus very important to our study. Some Muslims may object and assert that one can not use the Bible to prove Paul. However, such a surface level objection is based on ignorance since, again, the New Testament is a collection of valuable early historical documents, many of which speak directly to this issue. To discard the 1st century documents that are in the Bible and not include them in our study would be to neglect the earliest sources we have concerning this issue. That method would essentially be to irresponsibly throw away important data, which no serious historian or researcher would ever do. If historical sources don’t count then we can’t know anything about history.

1st Century Biblical Sources

With respect to the 1st century Biblical evidence concerning Paul we have Paul’s writings (Romans; 1 & 2 Corinthians; Galatians; Ephesians; Philippians; Colossians; 1 & 2 Thessalonians; 1 & 2 Timothy; Titus; and Philemon), the history of the 1st century church known as “Acts” or “Acts of the Apostles,” and a Christian epistle known as 2 Peter. So, with respect to 1st century Biblical writings we have Paul’s epistles as well as two other independent documents to work with. All of the 1st century Biblical sources that mention Paul affirm that Paul was a genuine Apostle. None of them question that.

All through out the book of Acts we see Paul identified as a true Apostle. And so we could quote numerous passages affirming this from Acts. However, one striking feature is that in the Acts 15 Jerusalem Council Paul played a leading role with the other Apostles such as James and Peter in answering the question about Gentiles being under the law. As the council was in session we see the following:

“And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.” (Acts 15:12)

Paul and Barnabas spoke after Peter (vv. 7-11) and right before James (vv. 13-21) who concluded the council and gave the final decision that Gentiles are not under the law. This demonstrates that there was 1st century recognition of Paul’s acceptance by the early church and by the Apostles themselves as an authoritative voice.

The book 2 Peter is rejected by many liberal scholars and Muslims but there is a strong case for its authority and for Petrine authorship.(2) This text is another 1st century source that not only affirms that Paul was a true Apostle, but it also identifies Paul’s writings as Scripture:

"15And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures." (2 Peter 3:15-16)

The best case scenario is that Peter wrote this and is accepting Paul. I believe this is the case. The worst case scenario is that this is another independent 1st century attestation affirming the reliability of Paul which we can add to the list. Even if it were not from Peter, it is still an early attestation which was accepted by the church and even added to the Canon of Scripture. Historians look for the earliest 1st century writings when it comes to Jesus and early Christianity. That there are no early 1st century writings asserting that Paul was a false Apostle discredits the Muslim position severely. The historical principles of early sources and multiple independent attestation is thus met with respect to 1st century Biblical evidence for Paul.

If Paul was a true Apostle we would expect his own letters to confirm that this was so. It must be asked: is there anything in Paul’s writings that historians would accept as proving that he was genuine? There are many things to consider. For example it is important to consider the principle of embarrassment which is the principle that something or someone is more likely to be authentic if there are embarrassing themes that you wouldn’t expect to be openly talked about. We see that Paul was quite open about his shortcomings, disputes with other Apostles, and his flaws. Such things persuade historians of Paul’s integrity and honesty, and thus his claims to apostleship gain credibility.

Paul was open about his humanity and imperfection

"8Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith-- 10that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own." (Philippians 3:8-12)

"12And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; 13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting." (1 Timothy 1:12-16)

"7So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me." (2 Corinthians 12:7-9)

This information meets the principle of embarrassment which historians look for. Christ and the Apostles had a very high view of holiness or sanctification(3) and so therefore we wouldn’t expect Paul to admit his imperfection and need for grace if he was an imposter trying to usurp or lead people away from the moral teachers Jesus and the Apostles. It is a human tendency to want to appear morally good in religious settings. This is especially true of those times. Although Paul was a sanctified model for morality and exhorted others to be moral, he was honest in admitting that he, like everyone else except Christ, was not perfect and that he, like everyone else, relied on God’s grace in his life. We know from history that later untrustworthy people who claimed to follow Christ, such as Pelagius, dishonestly claimed to be completely morally perfect(4). One would naturally expect something like this from Paul if he was trying to usurp Jesus and the Apostles who taught holiness and sanctification. But Paul, being genuine, admitted his imperfection, as did the other Prophets and Apostles either explicitly or implicitly(5), and taught that one ought to strive for holiness in light of being imperfect. In being honest about his imperfection and his reliance on God’s grace Paul was in fact doing the right thing according to Jesus’ teachings on salvation.(6) Hence, this kind of material demonstrates that Paul was genuine since if he was not then there would be no reason to include these types of admissions in his epistles – admissions that critics may twist or use against Paul.
 
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