Did Christ really exist ?

[Audie]

Paul didn't write Acts though, that was 'Luke'.

Dubious historicity or not, someone else writing about you long after you were dead is hardly a 'self-promoting lie'.

Makes sense.

Still a made up story in the infallible book

 

[Audie]

To compare Trump with the likes of Carrier, Price, and Thompson does not even rise to the level of stupid.


As do I. You're embarrassing yourself.

What exactly is meant by " historical figure"?

 

[Skywalker]

Mark's Jesus is an ordinary Jew, not descended from David, who becomes the son of God only when JtB washes away his sins; at which point the heavens open and God declares that Jesus is now [his] son, in the same manner that [he] had adopted David (Psalm 2:7, Acts 13:33).

The Jesus of Matthew and the Jesus of Luke are both born of a virgin who conceives by divine insemination. Angels foretell, untenable and incompatible genealogies to show Jesus as descended from David are provided, and other colorful fictions are provided like Matthew's 'taxation census' and 'Massacre of the Innocents' in order to move Jesus through various episodes that the authors regard as "messianic prophecy".

The Jesus of Paul and the Jesus of John pre-exist in heaven with God, and regardless of Genesis, each of them creates the material universe, which is what the gnostic demiurge does because the gnostic god is absolutely pure spirit unsullied by materiality. They are both descended from David, so it appears they were born in the usual way to Jewish parents, but there are no details.

However, all five of them deny that they're God and never once claim to be God. The Trinity doctrine isn't devised until the 4th century CE.

The genealogies in Matthew mention that Jesus descended from David.

 

[blü 2]

Jesus saying the Father is greater than I would be like me saying that the president of the United States is greater than me. He's greater in military capability but he's no more of a man than me.

You asked for the quotations where Jesus denies he's God, and I provided a suitable sample of them.

There are no occasions where Jesus claims that he's God.

The Trinity doctrine doesn't exist until three hundred years later. So it's not in the NT.

Simple as that.

 

[YoursTrue]

The Ten commandments support Jesus rising from the dead and because they were given to people so that they would know that they are sinners who need a Savior.

Also in order for Jesus to be a savior, we need to be repentant. We can't just say we're sorry and let it go like that. Repentance is more than that. And some people are not repentant yet claim to believe in Jesus. Similarly with others who observe certain rituals yet are flagrantly going against God's commandments. (adultery being one.)

 

[Aupmanyav]

"Jürgen Habermas (UK: /ˈhɑːbərmæs/, US: /-mɑːs/;[4] German: [ˈjʏʁɡn̩ ˈhaːbɐmaːs];[5][6] born 18 June 1929) is a German philosopher and sociologist in the tradition of critical theory and pragmatism. His work addresses communicative rationality and the public sphere." - Jürgen Habermas - Wikipedia

I need to check on that, though I think 'the positive social role of religion' (Christianity) is not genuine and is a feint. Proselytizers adopt all kind of strategies.
Feint: 1. a movement made in order to deceive an adversary; an attack aimed at one place or point merely as a distraction from the real place or point of attack: military feints; the feints of a skilled fencer. 2. a feigned or assumed appearance.

 

[YoursTrue]

The genealogies in Matthew mention that Jesus descended from David.

Yes.

 

[Skywalker]

Also in order for Jesus to be a savior, we need to be repentant. We can't just say we're sorry and let it go like that. Repentance is more than that. And some people are not repentant yet claim to believe in Jesus. Similarly with others who observe certain rituals yet are flagrantly going against God's commandments. (adultery being one.)

What do you think repentance is?

 

[YoursTrue]

I need to check on that, though I think 'the positive social role of religion' (Christianity) is not genuine and is a feint. Proselytizers adopt all kind of strategies.
Feint: 1. a movement made in order to deceive an adversary; an attack aimed at one place or point merely as a distraction from the real place or point of attack: military feints; the feints of a skilled fencer. 2. a feigned or assumed appearance.

I'd certainly have to agree but that is also in the scriptures, even about misleading inspired utterances. Matthew 24:11 - "Many false prophets will arise and mislead many." Clearly many were led astray after Jesus left this earth. And many rejected him.

 

[YoursTrue]

The Ten commandments support Jesus rising from the dead and because they were given to people so that they would know that they are sinners who need a Savior.

They were originally given only to the Jews. Then after Jesus gave up his life, Christians are still supposed to follow a righteous course set by God. Yes, the Law brought out that no matter how hard we try we are not perfect. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice for those with faith. And who understand what it means to follow scriptural guidelines.

 

[YoursTrue]

What do you think repentance is?

It's not only feeling bad and sorrowful about something but following Jesus counsel about sin. Changing our ways. We also have to know what sin is. For instance, homosexuality is not in harmony with the scriptures on yet some claiming to be Christian practice that.

 

[YoursTrue]

Adam and Eve/Garden of Eden is a myth found in many different and older religions. Each with their own version. These are definitely shared stories that exist to teach lessons and have deep metaphors, not to take literal.

"Like the Genesis flood narrative, the Genesis creation narrative and the account of the Tower of Babel, the story of Eden echoes the Mesopotamian myth of a king, as a primordial man, who is placed in a divine garden to guard the Tree of Life.[10] The Hebrew Bible depicts Adam and Eve as walking around the Garden of Eden naked due to their sinlessness.[11]

The Garden of Eden is considered to be mythological by most scholars."
Garden of Eden - Wikipedia

The human fossil line shows millions of years of slow evolution from an ape that began walking more than climbing, to slowly growing larger brains, losing body hair, using basic tools and basic language and eventually basic language and about 70,000 years ago, modern humans. All in Africa. Eden is a story first made up in Mesopotamia or possible Summer as humans began creating more elaborate stories with inner meaning.

Metaphors have nothing to do with the creation of man.

 

[YoursTrue]

Nope. At least not according to his own writings. He had a hallucination (vision), probably due to an epileptic episode.

A vision is not a hallucination. I have seen nothing in the Bible suggesting that Paul had epileptic episodes, although some commentators say that. One definition of hallucination does not meet up with the Bible account.
"perception of having seen, heard, touched, tasted, or smelled something that wasn't actually there." Jesus was there. Not seen by anyone but Paul at that moment. I've read those accusations about Paul by others, but I don't believe them.

 

[Skywalker]

I'd certainly have to agree but that is also in the scriptures, even about misleading inspired utterances. Matthew 24:11 - "Many false prophets will arise and mislead many." Clearly many were led astray after Jesus left this earth. And many rejected him.

Jesus referenced people believing in the false teachings of Jesus being a prophet and the Hindu and Buddhist Jesus.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. even about misleading inspired utterances. Matthew 24:11 - "Many false prophets will arise and mislead many." Clearly many were led astray after Jesus left this earth. And many rejected him.

What proves that God is not an imagination and Jesus was genuine (virgin birth and resurrection, of course, Lazarus and walking on water)?
You have to take that on faith, since there is no proof.

Bhagirath revived 60,000 of his uncles by bringing River Ganges from heaven to earth. And from heaven River Ganges fell into the coils of Shiva's matted hair, where it got lost and Shiva had to squeeze his hair to get Rive Ganges out. It is in Hindu scriptures. Would you believe that?
If you do not believe that, why would anyone believe in the fables of Bible?

The day when Gods visit Varanasi: Varanasi / Benares yesterday on the occasion of Diwali of Gods (Dev Diwali). dev diwali varanasi - Google Search

 

[joelr]

How charmingly imaginative.

You said using knowledge gained from PhD Carrier is not being informed. Seems to imply Carrier's work is uninformative. That would be an attack on a PhD historian.
After calling me a "Carrier-groupie" as if reading scholarship is a bad thing.

 

[joelr]

The Bible is not a scanty and unreliable record. The idea that stories about Christ emerged from mythology about gods dying and rising doesn't withstand scrutiny.

It completely withstands scrutiny. The messianic world savior was taken from the Persians in 5BC and there are at least 6 dying/rising savior demigods who pre-date Christianity. This is all backed up by scholarship.
Also the bible is a bit unreliable because the gospels are not eyewitness and the others sourced from Mark. Mark uses a literary style that is used in metaphorical fiction and even copies OT narratives line by line to create new Jesus stories.
There are all kinds of excellent books by PhDs on these topics so to say it doesn't withstand scrutiny is incorrect.

 

[Skywalker]

It completely withstands scrutiny. The messianic world savior was taken from the Persians in 5BC and there are at least 6 dying/rising savior demigods who pre-date Christianity. This is all backed up by scholarship.
Also the bible is a bit unreliable because the gospels are not eyewitness and the others sourced from Mark. Mark uses a literary style that is used in metaphorical fiction and even copies OT narratives line by line to create new Jesus stories.
There are all kinds of excellent books by PhDs on these topics so to say it doesn't withstand scrutiny is incorrect.

The second coming of Jesus is mentioned 11 times in the Old Testament.

 

[joelr]

Jesus is a real person. King Arthur's existence is questionable.

Jesus scores higher on the Rank Ragalin mythotype scale than King Arthur:

1. Mother is a royal virgin
2. Father is a king
3. Father often a near relative to mother
4. Unusual conception
5. Hero reputed to be son of god
6. Attempt to kill hero as an infant, often by father or maternal grandfather
7. Hero spirited away as a child
8. Reared by foster parents in a far country
9. No details of childhood
10. Returns or goes to future kingdom
11. Is victor over king, giant, dragon or wild beast
12. Marries a princess (often daughter of predecessor)
13. Becomes king
14. For a time he reigns uneventfully
15. He prescribes laws
16. Later loses favor with gods or his subjects
17. Driven from throne and city
18. Meets with mysterious death
19. Often at the top of a hill
20. His children, if any, do not succeed him
21. His body is not buried
22. Has one or more holy sepulchers or tombs

 

[Skywalker]

It completely withstands scrutiny. The messianic world savior was taken from the Persians in 5BC and there are at least 6 dying/rising savior demigods who pre-date Christianity. This is all backed up by scholarship.
Also the bible is a bit unreliable because the gospels are not eyewitness and the others sourced from Mark. Mark uses a literary style that is used in metaphorical fiction and even copies OT narratives line by line to create new Jesus stories.
There are all kinds of excellent books by PhDs on these topics so to say it doesn't withstand scrutiny is incorrect.

There are verses in the Tanakh that talk about the second coming of Jesus. The prophecies about the second coming of Jesus arent mentioned there by Christians to make Jesus look credible-they were already there in the Jewish Bible. Does the Old Testament truly predict a second advent of the Messiah? | GotQuestions.org

"Question: "Does the Old Testament truly predict a second advent of the Messiah?"

Answer: The Old Testament does prophesy the second coming of Christ, also referred to as the second advent of the Messiah. Some Old Testament prophecies concern the first advent, when Christ was born as a human being. Others concern the second advent, which is the ultimate triumph of this Messiah. It’s important to remember that prophecy does not describe the future in the same detail as history describes the past. So, while the prophecies of the Old Testament certainly describe both the first and second advents, most early interpretations of these prophecies melded them into a single event. Particularly during the years leading up to Jesus’ birth, it was assumed Messiah would be a political/military figure with an immediate worldly kingdom (Luke 19:11). In the light of Jesus’ ministry, it is possible to understand the true purpose of Christ and the real nature of His kingdom.

A careful look at Old Testament prophecies shows an underlying assumption of two advents. Micah 5:2 and Isaiah 7:14 predict the first advent. Separately, Isaiah 53:8–9 predicts a suffering and dying Messiah, who will be given life and greatness according to Isaiah 53:11–12. Daniel 9:26 describes the Messiah being killed after His appearance. At the same time, prophets such as Zechariah (Zechariah 12:10) say this same “pierced” Messiah will be seen again by His enemies. So the clues are there.

Many Old Testament prophecies foretell the ultimate triumph of Christ, which will occur at the second advent. These include statements from the books of Zechariah (Zechariah 9:14–15; 12:10–14; 13:1; 9:14–15); Amos (Amos 9:11–15); Jeremiah (Jeremiah 30:18; 32:44; 33:11, 26); and Joel (Joel 3:1); which describe the Messiah coming in triumph to lead Israel into salvation. Note that these are in the context of passages such as Deuteronomy 30:3–5and so are predictions of the time of Messiah’s final victory.

Also, Scripture records Jesus making direct comparisons to Old Testament prophecies when making His own claims to a second advent. For example, His words in Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27parallel the descriptions of Isaiah 52:15 and Isaiah 59—62.

All in all, the Hebrew Scriptures indicate that the Promised One would appear, be cut off, and then reappear in victory. The first advent has occurred; the second is still future. Both the New and Old Testaments predict a second advent of the Messiah."