Deterministic Chaos

[shunyadragon]

Determinism. Chaos (Fractal in nature), and what is randomness has been the subject os a number of threads. I found a number of recent references and recently published books on Deterministic Chaos. i will provide future references in concerning Deterministic Chaos and how natural order arises from the Quantum World. I will also discuss concepts of 'Order and Disorder' and Entropy concerning the nature of Energy from our physical existence to our everyday world.

In previous threads I have argued that randomness is not observed in the natural world. Some responded saying randomness is described in experiments as unknown variables. I believe that, yes. randomness is used to describe unknown variables, and in observations of some behavior in the Quantum world, but I believe this remains a human perspective of observed unknowns, and not actual random behavior in the natural world.

The references I have read describes nature as having an inherent math nature, and the order of nature found in math arises from a fractal underlying properties, and fractal properties arising from the Quantum world.

The following research describes an example of fractal order arising from the Quantum World in the behavior of electrons.

From: Physicists wrangled electrons into a quantum fractal

Physicists wrangled electrons into a quantum fractal

Electrons within the structure behave as if they live in a fractional number of dimensions
BY
EMILY CONOVER
11:00AM, NOVEMBER 12, 2018

ELECTRONS GO FRACTAL A fractal called a Sierpinski triangle (right) has been fashioned in the quantum realm (left), shown in an image indicating the density of electrons on the surface of copper.

S.N. KEMPKES ET AL/NATURE PHYSICS


Physicists have created an oddity known as a quantum fractal, a structure that could reveal new and strange types of electron behaviors.

Fractals are patterns that repeat themselves on different length scales: Zoom in and the structure looks the same as it does from afar. They’re common in the natural world. For instance, a cauliflower stalk looks like a miniature version of the full head. A lightning stroke splits into many branches, each of which has the same forked structure as the whole bolt.

But in the tiny quantum realm, fractals aren’t so easy to come by. Now scientists have artificially created a quantum fractal by placing carbon monoxide molecules on a copper surface. Confined between the molecules, electrons in the copper form a fractal shape of triangles within triangles called a Sierpinski triangle (SN Online: 12/30/02), the researchers report November 12 in Nature Physics. A full-fledged Sierpinski triangle would contain an infinite number of triangles, so the researchers created an approximation to that shape, with enough triangles for its repeating structure to be evident.

Electrons inhabiting a fractal don’t live in 3-D like the rest of us. Nor do they exist in a flat 2-D world or a one-dimensional line. Instead they occupy an in-between, fractional number of dimensions. In this case, the scientists found that the electrons lived in approximately the number of dimensions expected for a Sierpinski triangle, 1.58.

Quantum particles tend to act in unusual ways when confined to one or two dimensions (SN: 10/20/16, p.6). Scientists don’t yet know how electrons will behave in fractional dimensions, says physicist Cristiane Morais Smith of Utrecht University in the Netherlands. “What can come out of our work is completely uncharted territory.”

 

[David T]

"but I believe this remains a human perspective of observed unknowns, and not actual random behavior in the natural world"

Agreed. A simple walk in nature can teach you that. The term has taken on a characteristic as being explanitory and its not.

 

[frbnsn]

Determinism. Chaos (Fractal in nature), and what is randomness has been the subject os a number of threads. I found a number of recent references and recently published books on Deterministic Chaos. i will provide future references in concerning Deterministic Chaos and how natural order arises from the Quantum World. I will also discuss concepts of 'Order and Disorder' and Entropy concerning the nature of Energy from our physical existence to our everyday world.

In previous threads I have argued that randomness is not observed in the natural world. Some responded saying randomness is described in experiments as unknown variables. I believe that, yes. randomness is used to describe unknown variables, and in observations of some behavior in the Quantum world, but I believe this remains a human perspective of observed unknowns, and not actual random behavior in the natural world.

The references I have read describes nature as having an inherent math nature, and the order of nature found in math arises from a fractal underlying properties, and fractal properties arising from the Quantum world.

The following research describes an example of fractal order arising from the Quantum World in the behavior of electrons.

From: Physicists wrangled electrons into a quantum fractal

Physicists wrangled electrons into a quantum fractal

Electrons within the structure behave as if they live in a fractional number of dimensions
BY
EMILY CONOVER
11:00AM, NOVEMBER 12, 2018

ELECTRONS GO FRACTAL A fractal called a Sierpinski triangle (right) has been fashioned in the quantum realm (left), shown in an image indicating the density of electrons on the surface of copper.

S.N. KEMPKES ET AL/NATURE PHYSICS


Physicists have created an oddity known as a quantum fractal, a structure that could reveal new and strange types of electron behaviors.

Fractals are patterns that repeat themselves on different length scales: Zoom in and the structure looks the same as it does from afar. They’re common in the natural world. For instance, a cauliflower stalk looks like a miniature version of the full head. A lightning stroke splits into many branches, each of which has the same forked structure as the whole bolt.

But in the tiny quantum realm, fractals aren’t so easy to come by. Now scientists have artificially created a quantum fractal by placing carbon monoxide molecules on a copper surface. Confined between the molecules, electrons in the copper form a fractal shape of triangles within triangles called a Sierpinski triangle (SN Online: 12/30/02), the researchers report November 12 in Nature Physics. A full-fledged Sierpinski triangle would contain an infinite number of triangles, so the researchers created an approximation to that shape, with enough triangles for its repeating structure to be evident.

Electrons inhabiting a fractal don’t live in 3-D like the rest of us. Nor do they exist in a flat 2-D world or a one-dimensional line. Instead they occupy an in-between, fractional number of dimensions. In this case, the scientists found that the electrons lived in approximately the number of dimensions expected for a Sierpinski triangle, 1.58.

Quantum particles tend to act in unusual ways when confined to one or two dimensions (SN: 10/20/16, p.6). Scientists don’t yet know how electrons will behave in fractional dimensions, says physicist Cristiane Morais Smith of Utrecht University in the Netherlands. “What can come out of our work is completely uncharted territory.”

I am sure science found out that electrons also act in a law.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Electrons inhabiting a fractal don’t live in 3-D like the rest of us. Nor do they exist in a flat 2-D world or a one-dimensional line. Instead they occupy an in-between, fractional number of dimensions. In this case, the scientists found that the electrons lived in approximately the number of dimensions expected for a Sierpinski triangle, 1.58.

I have heard something about that. There is some Math that measures the dimensionality of geometric shapes. What that means I do not remember. Are you saying that it anticipates some property of the electrons in this formation?

 

[shunyadragon]

I have heard something about that. There is some Math that measures the dimensionality of geometric shapes. What that means I do not remember. Are you saying that it anticipates some property of the electrons in this formation?

Uncertain as to the word anticipates (?), but the experiment observed fractal behavior in the interface between the Quantum World and the Macro World by the behavior of the electrons, and than the behavior of the molecules.

This an other research points to the underlying relationship between Quantum Mechanics behavior of the Quantum and the fractal math underlying the Macro World. and math that we observe in the Macro World like the Golden Mean. The fundamentals of our math is what we discover math in the natural world.

 

[shunyadragon]

I am sure science found out that electrons also act in a law.

Needs clarification. Yes, electrons and a matter of fact all of nature behave according to Natural Laws. Science developed our Natural Laws, theories and hypothesis based on the underlying Natural Laws of our physical existence. Science is descriptive of the nature of our physical existence and is neutral to the ultimate source of the nature of our physical existence concerning God or no God.

Math developed first with the discovery of the math in the Natural World, and modern math develops a broader range of types of math and proofs, but it remains the tools of science and the most functional math remains that which is descriptive of the behavior of the Natural World.

 

[Nous]

Determinism. Chaos (Fractal in nature), and what is randomness has been the subject os a number of threads. I found a number of recent references and recently published books on Deterministic Chaos. i will provide future references in concerning Deterministic Chaos and how natural order arises from the Quantum World. I will also discuss concepts of 'Order and Disorder' and Entropy concerning the nature of Energy from our physical existence to our everyday world.

In previous threads I have argued that randomness is not observed in the natural world. Some responded saying randomness is described in experiments as unknown variables. I believe that, yes. randomness is used to describe unknown variables, and in observations of some behavior in the Quantum world, but I believe this remains a human perspective of observed unknowns, and not actual random behavior in the natural world.

The references I have read describes nature as having an inherent math nature, and the order of nature found in math arises from a fractal underlying properties, and fractal properties arising from the Quantum world.

The following research describes an example of fractal order arising from the Quantum World in the behavior of electrons.

From: Physicists wrangled electrons into a quantum fractal

Physicists wrangled electrons into a quantum fractal

Electrons within the structure behave as if they live in a fractional number of dimensions
BY
EMILY CONOVER
11:00AM, NOVEMBER 12, 2018

ELECTRONS GO FRACTAL A fractal called a Sierpinski triangle (right) has been fashioned in the quantum realm (left), shown in an image indicating the density of electrons on the surface of copper.

S.N. KEMPKES ET AL/NATURE PHYSICS


Physicists have created an oddity known as a quantum fractal, a structure that could reveal new and strange types of electron behaviors.

Fractals are patterns that repeat themselves on different length scales: Zoom in and the structure looks the same as it does from afar. They’re common in the natural world. For instance, a cauliflower stalk looks like a miniature version of the full head. A lightning stroke splits into many branches, each of which has the same forked structure as the whole bolt.

But in the tiny quantum realm, fractals aren’t so easy to come by. Now scientists have artificially created a quantum fractal by placing carbon monoxide molecules on a copper surface. Confined between the molecules, electrons in the copper form a fractal shape of triangles within triangles called a Sierpinski triangle (SN Online: 12/30/02), the researchers report November 12 in Nature Physics. A full-fledged Sierpinski triangle would contain an infinite number of triangles, so the researchers created an approximation to that shape, with enough triangles for its repeating structure to be evident.

Electrons inhabiting a fractal don’t live in 3-D like the rest of us. Nor do they exist in a flat 2-D world or a one-dimensional line. Instead they occupy an in-between, fractional number of dimensions. In this case, the scientists found that the electrons lived in approximately the number of dimensions expected for a Sierpinski triangle, 1.58.

Quantum particles tend to act in unusual ways when confined to one or two dimensions (SN: 10/20/16, p.6). Scientists don’t yet know how electrons will behave in fractional dimensions, says physicist Cristiane Morais Smith of Utrecht University in the Netherlands. “What can come out of our work is completely uncharted territory.”

Definition of the thesis of determinism:

Determinism: The world is governed by (or is under the sway of) determinism if and only if, given a specified way things are at a time t, the way things go thereafter is fixed as a matter of natural law.​

Causal Determinism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

The scientific evidence demonstrates that the thesis of determinism is false due to the fact that the properties of quanta do not exist in any definite state in the absence of or prior to a measurement. The Leggett-Garg inequality is experimentally violated, and thereby the realism postulate fails. In light of the failure of the realism postulate, “the way things go” after time t is not fixed at time t.

Testing Leggett's Inequality Using Aharonov-Casher Effect

Bell's inequality is established based on local realism. The violation of Bell's inequality by quantum mechanics implies either locality or realism or both are untenable. Leggett's inequality is derived based on nonlocal realism. The violation of Leggett's inequality implies that quantum mechanics is neither local realistic nor nonlocal realistic. The incompatibility of nonlocal realism and quantum mechanics has been currently confirmed by photon experiments.​

Violation of the Leggett-Garg Inequality in Neutrino Oscillations

The original goal of LGI [Leggett-Garg Inequality] tests was to demonstrate macroscopic coherence -- that is, that quantum mechanics applies on macroscopic scales up to the level at which many-particle systems exhibit decoherence [3, 8–12]. For this reason, a major focus of recent LGI research has been scaling up to tests with macroscopic systems. Notably, Zhou et al. [9] recently reported finding LGI violation caused by quantum coherence in macroscopic crystals.

LGI tests have another purpose: to test “realism,” the notion that physical systems possess complete sets of definite values for various parameters prior to, and independent of, measurement. “Realism” is often encoded in hidden-variable theories, which allow for systems that are treated as identical according to quantum mechanics to be fundamentally distinguishable through a hidden set of parameters that they possess, such that any measurement on a system reveals a pre-existing value [13]. LGI violations imply that such hidden-variable (or “realistic”) alternatives to quantum mechanics cannot adequately describe a system’s time evolution. Experiments using few-particle systems can test “realism” even if they do not directly address macrorealism [13–18].​

Violation of the Leggett-Garg Inequality in Neutrino Oscillations

The Leggett-Garg inequality, an analogue of Bell’s inequality involving correlations of measurements on a system at different times, stands as one of the hallmark tests of quantum mechanics against classical predictions. The phenomenon of neutrino oscillations should adhere to quantum-mechanical predictions and provide an observable violation of the Leggett-Garg inequality. We demonstrate how oscillation phenomena can be used to test for violations of the classical bound by performing measurements on an ensemble of neutrinos at distinct energies, as opposed to a single neutrino at distinct times. A study of the MINOS experiment’s data shows a greater than 6σ violation over a distance of 735 km, representing the longest distance over which either the Leggett-Garg inequality or Bell’s inequality has been tested.​

The fact that certain macroscopic (or at least larger-than-mere-quantum) systems are adequately described by the theories (mathematics) of nonlinear mechanics does not refute experimental failure of the realism postulate. Nor does empirical reality consist of a dualism of non-interacting “levels” or “worlds”--a world or level where the thesis of determinism is true and a world or level where the thesis of determinism is not true.

 

[shunyadragon]

Definition of the thesis of determinism:

Determinism: The world is governed by (or is under the sway of) determinism if and only if, given a specified way things are at a time t, the way things go thereafter is fixed as a matter of natural law.​

Causal Determinism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

This a rather mechanistic limited definition of determinism. The concept of Deterministic Chaos is NOT defined in the manner of the above definition.

[/quote]
The scientific evidence demonstrates that the thesis of determinism is false due to the fact that the properties of quanta do not exist in any definite state in the absence of or prior to a measurement. The Leggett-Garg inequality is experimentally violated, and thereby the realism postulate fails. In light of the failure of the realism postulate, “the way things go” after time t is not fixed at time t.[/quote]

Agreed, based on the older Newtonian definition of Determinism provided above, but Deterministic Chaos is NOT defined as in the older definition.

Testing Leggett's Inequality Using Aharonov-Casher Effect

Bell's inequality is established based on local realism. The violation of Bell's inequality by quantum mechanics implies either locality or realism or both are untenable. Leggett's inequality is derived based on nonlocal realism. The violation of Leggett's inequality implies that quantum mechanics is neither local realistic nor nonlocal realistic. The incompatibility of nonlocal realism and quantum mechanics has been currently confirmed by photon experiments.​

Your Arguing from Ignorance of unknowns concerning the behavior in the Quantum World. It remains a fact, despite unknowns, that Quantum behavior is predicable, including the 'nonlocal realism and quantum mechanics has been currently confirmed by photon experiments.'​

Despite your objections there is no evidence that Quantum behavior falls outside the limits of natural laws.

The following is more contemporary view of the relationship of Quantum Mechanics and determinism/

From:Quantum theory and determinism

Quantum theory and determinism

Quantum theory and determinism usually do not go together. A natural combination is quantum theory and randomness. Indeed, when in the end of ninenteenth century physics seemed to be close to provide a very good deterministic explanation of all observed phenomena, Lord Kelvin identified “two clouds” on “the beauty and clearness of the dynamical theory”. One of this “clouds” was the quantum theory which brought a consensus that there is randomness in physics. Recently, we even “certify” randomness using quantum experiments [1].

I do not think that there is anything wrong with these experiments. They create numbers which we can safely consider “random” for various cryptographic tasks. But I feel that we should not give up the idea that the Universe is governed by a deterministic law. Quantum theory is correct, but determinism is correct too. I will argue that the quantum theory of the wave function of the Universe is a very successful deterministic theory fully consistent with our experimental evidence. However, it requires accepting that the world we experience is only part of the reality and there are numerous parallel worlds. The existence of parallel worlds allows us to have a clear deterministic and local physical theory.

Before presenting this view I review how quantum theory led to believe that Nature is random. I give a critical review of attempts to construct theories with randomness underlying quantum theory. I discuss modifications of the standard formalism suggesting physical mechanisms for collapse. Then I turn to options for deterministic theories by discussing Bohmian mechanics and its variations, in particular a many Bohmian worlds proposal. Finally, I present the many-worlds interpretation and explain how one can deal with its most serious difficulty, the issue of probability.

Violation of the Leggett-Garg Inequality in Neutrino Oscillations

The original goal of LGI [Leggett-Garg Inequality] tests was to demonstrate macroscopic coherence -- that is, that quantum mechanics applies on macroscopic scales up to the level at which many-particle systems exhibit decoherence [3, 8–12]. For this reason, a major focus of recent LGI research has been scaling up to tests with macroscopic systems. Notably, Zhou et al. [9] recently reported finding LGI violation caused by quantum coherence in macroscopic crystals.

LGI tests have another purpose: to test “realism,” the notion that physical systems possess complete sets of definite values for various parameters prior to, and independent of, measurement. “Realism” is often encoded in hidden-variable theories, which allow for systems that are treated as identical according to quantum mechanics to be fundamentally distinguishable through a hidden set of parameters that they possess, such that any measurement on a system reveals a pre-existing value [13]. LGI violations imply that such hidden-variable (or “realistic”) alternatives to quantum mechanics cannot adequately describe a system’s time evolution. Experiments using few-particle systems can test “realism” even if they do not directly address macrorealism [13–18].​

Violation of the Leggett-Garg Inequality in Neutrino Oscillations

The Leggett-Garg inequality, an analogue of Bell’s inequality involving correlations of measurements on a system at different times, stands as one of the hallmark tests of quantum mechanics against classical predictions. The phenomenon of neutrino oscillations should adhere to quantum-mechanical predictions and provide an observable violation of the Leggett-Garg inequality. We demonstrate how oscillation phenomena can be used to test for violations of the classical bound by performing measurements on an ensemble of neutrinos at distinct energies, as opposed to a single neutrino at distinct times. A study of the MINOS experiment’s data shows a greater than 6σ violation over a distance of 735 km, representing the longest distance over which either the Leggett-Garg inequality or Bell’s inequality has been tested.​

All of the above is only true of the older narrow Newtonian definition of strict 'Determinism' provided above. The above research you cited fits well within the concept of Deterministic Chaos.

I may revise this proposed definition and tweak it, but for discussion here it is.

Deterministic Chaos - The world is governed by (or is under the sway of) deterministic chaos if and only if, given a specified way things are at a time t, the way things go thereafter are fixed [within a range of possible outcomes based on fractal relationships and limited by natural laws] .

What is described above do not describe anything where the outcomes of cause and effect relationships to outcomes are outside the limits of natural laws.​

 

[Nous]

This a rather mechanistic limited definition of determinism. The concept of Deterministic Chaos is NOT defined in the manner of the above definition.

I may revise this proposed definition and tweak it, but for discussion here it is.

Deterministic Chaos - The world is governed by (or is under the sway of) deterministic chaos if and only if, given a specified way things are at a time t, the way things go thereafter are fixed [within a range of possible outcomes based on fractal relationships and limited by natural laws] .

What is described above do not describe anything where the outcomes of cause and effect relationships to outcomes are outside the limits of natural laws.​

Define "deterministic chaos," and provide the evidence that the Leggett-Garg inequality is not experimentally violated in a "world . . governed (or under sway of) deterministic chaos."

 

[shunyadragon]

Define "deterministic chaos," and provide the evidence that the Leggett-Garg inequality is not experimentally violated in a "world . . governed (or under sway of) deterministic chaos."

I already defined Deterministic Chaos. I see not violation of Deterministic Chaos. I see no reason that Leggett-Garg inequality violates NAtural LAws nor the concept of Deterministic Chaos.

Experimentally violate? It is not a criteria for positive hypothesis concerning the nature of the claim of the Leggett-Garg inequality Problem concerning the new view of Deterministic Chaos. Your asking me to provide evidence for a negative hypothesis. Does not compute concerning science. There is absolutely no evidence that the Leggett-Garg inequality violates Natural Laws. It only presents the problem of observed inequalities.

Please note the addition in the previous post which I will repeat here:

The following is more contemporary view of the relationship of Quantum Mechanics and determinism/

From:Quantum theory and determinism

Quantum theory and determinism

Quantum theory and determinism usually do not go together. A natural combination is quantum theory and randomness. Indeed, when in the end of ninenteenth century physics seemed to be close to provide a very good deterministic explanation of all observed phenomena, Lord Kelvin identified “two clouds” on “the beauty and clearness of the dynamical theory”. One of this “clouds” was the quantum theory which brought a consensus that there is randomness in physics. Recently, we even “certify” randomness using quantum experiments [1].

I do not think that there is anything wrong with these experiments. They create numbers which we can safely consider “random” for various cryptographic tasks. But I feel that we should not give up the idea that the Universe is governed by a deterministic law. Quantum theory is correct, but determinism is correct too. I will argue that the quantum theory of the wave function of the Universe is a very successful deterministic theory fully consistent with our experimental evidence. However, it requires accepting that the world we experience is only part of the reality and there are numerous parallel worlds. The existence of parallel worlds allows us to have a clear deterministic and local physical theory.

Before presenting this view I review how quantum theory led to believe that Nature is random. I give a critical review of attempts to construct theories with randomness underlying quantum theory. I discuss modifications of the standard formalism suggesting physical mechanisms for collapse. Then I turn to options for deterministic theories by discussing Bohmian mechanics and its variations, in particular a many Bohmian worlds proposal. Finally, I present the many-worlds interpretation and explain how one can deal with its most serious difficulty, the issue of probability.

 

[Nous]

I already defined Deterministic Chaos.

You said:

Deterministic Chaos - The world is governed by (or is under the sway of) deterministic chaos if and only if, given a specified way things are at a time t, the way things go thereafter are fixed [within a range of possible outcomes based on fractal relationships and limited by natural laws] .​

Then, the world is not governed by deterministic chaos because the experimental evidence remains true: The Leggett-Garg inequality remains experimentally violated. The way things go after time t is not fixed at time t. Nonlinear dynamics doesn't change that.

 

[shunyadragon]

You said:

Deterministic Chaos - The world is governed by (or is under the sway of) deterministic chaos if and only if, given a specified way things are at a time t, the way things go thereafter are fixed [within a range of possible outcomes based on fractal relationships and limited by natural laws] .​

Then, the world is not governed by deterministic chaos because the experimental evidence remains true: The Leggett-Garg inequality remains experimentally violated. The way things go after time t is not fixed at time t. Nonlinear dynamics doesn't change that.

Your being stoically stubborn from a Newtonian physics perspective, and not acknowledges my sources. You are really out of date concerning the contemporary concepts of physics. The view that Leggett-Garg inequality describes a set of inequalities obeyed by classical systems but violated in quantum theory to challenge determinism is based on a limited knowledge of Quantum Mechanics, which is an 'argument from ignorance,' at best to argue that the unknowns are a basis for rejecting determinism. Based on our present knowledge of Quantum Mechanics it is unreasonable to expect the Natural Laws of the macro world to apply to the Quantum World, because of what is described in the literature as unknown 'hidden classical variables' between the macro-world and the Quantum World.

In contemporary physics the Bell and Leggett-Garg inequalities are not used as an effort to disprove determinism. They are used to understand and test the differences between the macro world and the Quantum World. You are taking adversarial approach based on your agenda. Contemporary scientists do not go there.

From: https://web.physics.ucsb.edu/~martinisgroup/theses/White2015.pdfFrom

Preserving entanglement during weak measurement demonstrated with a violation of the Bell-Leggett-Garg inequality by Theodore C. White

Abstract

Quantum mechanics makes many predictions, such as superposition, projective measurement, and entanglement, which defy classical intuition. For many years it remained unclear if these predictions were real physical phenomena, or the result of an incomplete understanding of hidden classical variables. For quantum entanglement, the Bell inequality provided the first experimental bound on such hidden variable theories by considering correlated measurements between spatially separated photons. Following a similar logic, the Leggett-Garg inequality provides an experimental test of projective measurement by correlating sequential measurements of the same object. More recently, these inequalities have become important benchmarks for the “quantumness” of novel systems, measurement techniques, or methods of generating entanglement. In this work we describe a continuous and controlled exchange of extracted state information and two-qubit entanglement collapse, demonstrated using the hybrid Bell-Leggett-Garg inequality. This effect is quantified by correlating weak measurement results with subsequent projective readout to collect all the statistics of a Bell inequality experiment in a single quantum circuit. This result was made possible by technological advances in superconducting quantum processors which allow precise control and measurement in multi-qubit systems. Additionally we discuss the central role of superconducting Josephson parametric amplifiers, which are a requirement for high fidelity single shot qubit readout. We demonstrate the ability to measure average Bell state information with minimal entanglement collapse, by violating this hybrid Bell-Leggett-Garg inequality at the weakest measurement strengths. This result indicates that it is possible to learn about the dynamics of large entangled systems without significantly affecting their evolution

1.5 Conclusion The inequalities as detailed were originally conceived of as tests for the validity of quantum theory. As the evidence for quantum mechanics grows more overwhelming, these tests have begun to fill a different role. More modern implementations of both inequalities have been used as verification that a system is behaving quantum mechanically. For instance a violation of the Leggett-Garg inequality could be used to verify a new method method of state measurement. Similarly a violation of bells inequality provides evidence that an entangling gate is in fact entangling. It is this method of validation through violation that we are interested in for this work.

 

[Nous]

Your being stoically stubborn from a Newtonian physics perspective, and not acknowledges my sources.

You haven't cited any sources that conclude that the thesis of determinism is true.

The thesis of determinism stated in the SEP article implies that even a single random event occurring anywhere and any time in the universe refutes that the world is governed by determinism. And your jimmying with the SEP's definition of determinism doesn't in any way obviate that.

In contemporary physics the Bell and Leggett-Garg inequalities are not used as an effort to disprove determinism. They are used to understand and test the differences between the macro world and the Quantum World.

Utterly false ignorant nonsense! Empirical reality does not consist of 2 different "worlds--"the macro world and the Quantum World". And nothing you have ever quoted even vaguely suggests the existence of such a dualism of "worlds". You can't even define those terms.

And to maintain that the thesis of determinism is true of "the macro world" would mean that the two alleged "worlds" are non-interacting. Such an idea is total incomprehensible ignorance. You won't find any such suggestion in the peer-reviewed literature.

 

[shunyadragon]

You haven't cited any sources that conclude that the thesis of determinism is true.

My references stand as cited and you have failed to respond coherently. Especially the fact that scientists DO NOT take your adversary view concerning the relationship between the Quantum World and the macro world. If you have no constructive response to references cited please leave the thread.

The thesis of determinism stated in the SEP article implies that even a single random event occurring anywhere and any time in the universe refutes that the world is governed by determinism. And your jimmying with the SEP's definition of determinism doesn't in any way obviate that.

Again . . . I am not proposing your 'older narrow definition for 'Deterministic Chaos, and you have failed to respond to the new definition, by ignoring the references, and repeating your monotonous mantra over and over based only on your agenda and not science

Utterly false ignorant nonsense! Empirical reality does not consist of 2 different "worlds--"the macro world and the Quantum World". And nothing you have ever quoted even vaguely suggests the existence of such a dualism of "worlds". You can't even define those terms.

You are falsely equating dualism with the scale difference and other differences between the macro world and the Quantum World. There are many Quantum behaviors that can be observed at the interface between the Quantum World and the macro world. The Gravity we have in the macro world does not apply to the Quantum World. In the Quantum World we have Quantum Gravity.

And to maintain that the thesis of determinism is true of "the macro world" would mean that the two alleged "worlds" are non-interacting. Such an idea is total incomprehensible ignorance. You won't find any such suggestion in the peer-reviewed literature.

The two worlds most definitely interact and yes the Thesis of Deterministic Chaos is valid for the macro world, and possibly for the Quantum World. 'Arguing from Ignorance' by selective references bares no resemblance of the present view of scientists as cited,

I cited an article of an example of interaction between the Quantum World and the macro world. There are more forthcoming.

 

[Nous]

My references stand as cited and you have failed to respond coherently. Especially the fact that scientists DO NOT take your adversary view concerning the relationship between the Quantum World and the macro world. If you have no constructive response to references cited please leave the thread.



Again . . . I am not proposing your 'older narrow definition for 'Deterministic Chaos, and you have failed to respond to the new definition, by ignoring the references, and repeating your monotonous mantra over and over based only on your agenda and not science



You are falsely equating dualism with the scale difference and other differences between the macro world and the Quantum World. There are many Quantum behaviors that can be observed at the interface between the Quantum World and the macro world. The Gravity we have in the macro world does not apply to the Quantum World. In the Quantum World we have Quantum Gravity.



The two worlds most definitely interact and yes the Thesis of Deterministic Chaos is valid for the macro world, and possibly for the Quantum World. 'Arguing from Ignorance' by selective references bares no resemblance of the present view of scientists as cited,

I cited an article of an example of interaction between the Quantum World and the macro world. There are more forthcoming.

Nothing you have said here changes anything of this:

You haven't cited any sources that conclude that the thesis of determinism is true.

The thesis of determinism stated in the SEP article implies that even a single random event occurring anywhere and any time in the universe refutes that the world is governed by determinism. And your jimmying with the SEP's definition of determinism doesn't in any way obviate that.

Empirical reality does not consist of 2 different "worlds--"the macro world and the Quantum World". And nothing you have ever quoted even vaguely suggests the existence of such a dualism of "worlds". You can't even define those terms.

And to maintain that the thesis of determinism is true of "the macro world" would mean that the two alleged "worlds" are non-interacting. Such an idea is total incomprehensible ignorance. You won't find any such suggestion in the peer-reviewed literature.