stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
This is the Arabic equivalent of saying 'an apple' instead of 'a apple' if I remember correctly. For example, you say ar-rahman instead of al rahman. Is that corrrect?
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Denial by non-Muslims of the Qur'an's commands to commit violence.
- Thread starter stevecanuck
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This is the Arabic equivalent of saying 'an apple' instead of 'a apple' if I remember correctly. For example, you say ar-rahman instead of al rahman. Is that corrrect?
Something on those lines, I'm not a grammar expert.
The Arabic grammar rules were solidified after Quran and Quran played a big role in what they would be. But there is somethings Quran does with singular and plural that are not allowed per conventional Arabic grammar. For example, 5:55 it uses singular instead of plural. In verse 5:12, the translations all have an s at the end of whatever words they use to translate Naqeeb, but the Arabic is singular.
Also, it does things like "The number of luminaries (usually translated as months) with God is Twelve luminary ..." yet the translations don't translate it as "The number of months with God is twelve month", because it would be non-sensical, in the latter translation, however, it makes sense with the luminary translation in the same way 5:55 and 5:12 use singular to denote the unity of the authority, leadership and guidance of the group addressed.
If you see all translations:
They put the second part as "months" when the Arabic goes from plural to singular. Indeed to repeat the words months does not make sense in itself. Why mention it two times anyways?
These things which translators don't recognize and miss are important.
The going from plural to singular, makes sense, if translated as luminaries because then it would be saying there are one luminary from a different perspective. Months being same month has no eloquence.
The verse goes on to say four of them are sacred. Usually, this is why people see it as months, but the sacredness could have to do with the talk before which is about not going into extreme into worshiping the exalted souls like Jesus (a) but also not equating the exalted souls with scholars and following scholars as if they have same authority. If you fall short of exalting them, you deny them their chosen status, and if you go beyond that, it means you are worshiping them. Thus the four sacred has to do with the name "exalted" (Ali) which four of the twelve luminaries would be named. This makes sense why now it emphasized they are a singular luminary, to emphasize they are all sacred in the same way, and the sacredness here is to do with the titles they have, and not that one Imam is actually more sacred than another.
Then it says "that is the upright religion", we have hadiths that argue by this, that it can't be referring to months but must be referring to the twelve Imams (a).
Then there is one more word "Amatan", which a hadith from Imam Mohamad Al-Baqir (a), says refers to Mohammad (S). This that can be referring to one generic founder. They delay a luminary in succession to one generic and they deem the number twelve sacred with one generic founder while not another, this is so they can deny the number made sacred by God.
There is also the case that Arabs followed luminary months and didn't try to play with their number. They accepted them which is why there was agreement on the four sacred months.
There is always a double meaning with respect to verses with designating the Imams (a). But with reflection they always become clear. In this case:
(1) The upright religion can't be months or their number, that's a trivial thing in the religion not a full description of it while submission to God can be seen from another perspective as seeking illumination from the Twelve luminaries as one luminary and exalting them without worshiping them nor falling short of their chosen status, since their authority is one and same with Quran and the Nabi (s).
(2) The emphasis twice with the word from plural to singular, does not make sense in terms of lunar months.
(3) There is no relationship with disbelief and belief and months and historically there was no divisions about the months by Arabs, before and after.
(4) The trickiest thing is to see the four sacred having to do with the name Ali but the verses before give it that context since it talked about going into extreme in worship, and there is verse after close to it that says "the word of God is the most exalted" and the one word amatan being able to be translated as generic. Once both those are seen, the flow is clear.
So to see the only people who can provide illumination and represent the Prophet (s) is the Twelve Successors with four of them having a name to denote sacred territory where the one who goes beyond is a polytheist while the one who falls short is disbelieves in the favor of God as the religion of God makes sense.
Also, the consistency of twelve luminaries is important and the unity of them as one (usage of singular after) makes sense.
Per grammar rules later developed, 9:36 would be a grammar mistake on two grounds: repetition of the same word, and using singular usage of it after it. But since Quran precedes these rules being cannoned, it didn't break grammar rules, but in fact, showed a cool way to use plural and singular, and repeat the same word right after one another when usually it would be deemed wrong. And there is a whole theme to this in Quran.
Also, it does things like "The number of luminaries (usually translated as months) with God is Twelve luminary ..." yet the translations don't translate it as "The number of months with God is twelve month", because it would be non-sensical, in the latter translation, however, it makes sense with the luminary translation in the same way 5:55 and 5:12 use singular to denote the unity of the authority, leadership and guidance of the group addressed.
If you see all translations:
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation
corpus.quran.com
They put the second part as "months" when the Arabic goes from plural to singular. Indeed to repeat the words months does not make sense in itself. Why mention it two times anyways?
These things which translators don't recognize and miss are important.
The going from plural to singular, makes sense, if translated as luminaries because then it would be saying there are one luminary from a different perspective. Months being same month has no eloquence.
The verse goes on to say four of them are sacred. Usually, this is why people see it as months, but the sacredness could have to do with the talk before which is about not going into extreme into worshiping the exalted souls like Jesus (a) but also not equating the exalted souls with scholars and following scholars as if they have same authority. If you fall short of exalting them, you deny them their chosen status, and if you go beyond that, it means you are worshiping them. Thus the four sacred has to do with the name "exalted" (Ali) which four of the twelve luminaries would be named. This makes sense why now it emphasized they are a singular luminary, to emphasize they are all sacred in the same way, and the sacredness here is to do with the titles they have, and not that one Imam is actually more sacred than another.
Then it says "that is the upright religion", we have hadiths that argue by this, that it can't be referring to months but must be referring to the twelve Imams (a).
Then there is one more word "Amatan", which a hadith from Imam Mohamad Al-Baqir (a), says refers to Mohammad (S). This that can be referring to one generic founder. They delay a luminary in succession to one generic and they deem the number twelve sacred with one generic founder while not another, this is so they can deny the number made sacred by God.
There is also the case that Arabs followed luminary months and didn't try to play with their number. They accepted them which is why there was agreement on the four sacred months.
There is always a double meaning with respect to verses with designating the Imams (a). But with reflection they always become clear. In this case:
(1) The upright religion can't be months or their number, that's a trivial thing in the religion not a full description of it while submission to God can be seen from another perspective as seeking illumination from the Twelve luminaries as one luminary and exalting them without worshiping them nor falling short of their chosen status, since their authority is one and same with Quran and the Nabi (s).
(2) The emphasis twice with the word from plural to singular, does not make sense in terms of lunar months.
(3) There is no relationship with disbelief and belief and months and historically there was no divisions about the months by Arabs, before and after.
(4) The trickiest thing is to see the four sacred having to do with the name Ali but the verses before give it that context since it talked about going into extreme in worship, and there is verse after close to it that says "the word of God is the most exalted" and the one word amatan being able to be translated as generic. Once both those are seen, the flow is clear.
So to see the only people who can provide illumination and represent the Prophet (s) is the Twelve Successors with four of them having a name to denote sacred territory where the one who goes beyond is a polytheist while the one who falls short is disbelieves in the favor of God as the religion of God makes sense.
Also, the consistency of twelve luminaries is important and the unity of them as one (usage of singular after) makes sense.
Per grammar rules later developed, 9:36 would be a grammar mistake on two grounds: repetition of the same word, and using singular usage of it after it. But since Quran precedes these rules being cannoned, it didn't break grammar rules, but in fact, showed a cool way to use plural and singular, and repeat the same word right after one another when usually it would be deemed wrong. And there is a whole theme to this in Quran.
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
Ok. You mention dust and ashes. I can see Ashes is different than dust.
The association of ashes with along with cattle/heifer, and brass tells me more about it.
So Ashes would go into the highlighted first column position along with brass and cattle.
Bread - Oil - Wine
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Brass - Silver - Gold
I see Ashes as bread which further verifies the positioning.
For I have eaten ashes like bread, and mingled my drink with weeping. Psalm.
With the positioning clear the ashes could be considered as being brass.
While the dust is as silver.
Though he heap up silver as the dust, and prepare raiment as the clay; Job
Brass - Silver - Gold
So:
Brass = Ashes.
Silver = Dust.
Dimi95
Χριστός ἀνέστη
You don't quit , do you..
I think you should read the whole Bible , then ask yourself the same questions.
I can go into everything you said , but you will ignore most of it.
The good can't be evil , and the evil can't be good.They don't work together , untill the evil repents and comes to the good.(John announces the kingdom of God with repentence)
There is no other way , my friend.
Good overpowers evil
God is good or?
Let me give you something to look up , maybe you will like it.
This is the first ever hyperlinked book
To know more something about it visit the source:
Chris Harrison | BibleViz
www.chrisharrison.net
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
Should I quit? I've wanted to. I really dont like being here trying to talk about this.
You are assuming that I havent. While at school as a small child my reading and comprehension was tested showing to be above average for an adult. We were given stories to read and then answer questions selecting from multichoice answers to show comprehension. So not just knowing the words, but understanding them. I liked to read a lot as a child. It was as an adult that I picked up a bible to read it out of interest of what it says.
I could say you are just assuming that I wouldnt listen to you, but this just seems to be a 'I could......, but you wouldn't........." statement.
Why not? The bible is full of nonsense verses and if they only make sense as combinations of good verses and evil verses then it is how it works. Regardless of how you feel about it.
Dimi95
Χριστός ἀνέστη
I don't like when i am confronted with the reason on gift , because i used to do that and it helped me , but was not enough.That road has strange expirience.. That is why i am walking with everything , not only with something.
Don't take it as offence please, try taking it as advice.
Don't overvalue it too much , it helps yes - it's reliable yes , but there is something more.
I just wanted to say that Questions and Answers can go to infinite, but at some point we will have to cut that out , and askourself what is the truth?
Well Jesus said : "I am the truth".
I understand that you have questions , and you should have them , if you don't question , you would not know.
But at some point you have to cut and put your armor down.
Christianity armor is faith , Christian Sword is the Spirit
John 14:26:
"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."
Romans 8:26:
"Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words."
Through the power of the Holy Spirit, believers are saved, filled, sealed, and sanctified. The Holy Spirit reveals God’s thoughts, teaches, and guides believers into all truth, including knowledge of what is to come. The Holy Spirit also helps Christians in their weakness and intercedes for them.
Who is the Holy Spirit?
The Holy Spirit, or Holy Ghost, is God, the third Person of the Holy Trinity, who eternally "proceeds" from the Father (John 15:26). The Holy Spirit is co-equal with the Father and the Son. The word "Spirit" commonly translates the Greek New Testament word pneuma.
What Does the Holy Spirit Do?
The Spirit dwells inside every true Christian. The body of faithful Christians becomes His temple (1 Corinthians 3:16). He is described as a 'Counsellor' or 'Helper' (paraclete in Greek, guiding them in the way of the truth.) The 'Fruit of the Spirit' (the result of His work) is "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control" (Galatians 5:22). The Spirit is also believed to give gifts (natural and supernatural) to Christians as is found in the life of Christ and His disciples healing the sick, raising the dead, and more.
The Holy Spirit in the New Testament
Christians believe that it was the Holy Spirit whom Jesus mentioned as the promised "Comforter" in John 14:26. After His resurrection, Christ told his disciples that they would be "baptized with the Holy Ghost," and would receive power or endowment (Acts 1:4-8). This promise was fulfilled in the events recounted in Acts 2. On the first Pentecost, Jesus' disciples were gathered in Jerusalem when a mighty wind was heard, and tongues of fire appeared over their heads.A multilingual crowd heard the disciples speaking, and each heard them speaking in their native language.
Understanding the Holy Spirit: 10 Roles in Our Lives:
1.The Holy Spirit is a Helper Who Teaches and Reminds
2.He Convicts the World of Sin
3.The Holy Spirit Dwells in Believers and Fills Us
4.He is a Source of Revelation, Wisdom, and Power
5.He Guides to All Truth and Knowledge of What Is to Come
6.The Holy Spirit Gives Spiritual Gifts to Believers
7.He is a Seal in the Lives of Believers
8.He Helps in Our Weakness and Intercedes for Us
9.He Makes Believers New and Grants Us Eternal Life
10.The Holy Spirit Sanctifies and Enables Good Fruit in Our Lives
These pieces are described in Ephesians as follows: loins girt with truth (belt of truth), breastplate of righteousness, shoes with the preparation of the gospel of peace (peace), shield of faith, helmet of salvation, and the sword of the spirit/word of God.
We can discuss separatly every one of them if you like.
The Armor and the Sword give you salvation , and when you recive salvation you become truth and righteousness.
You think that this path is easy?
You think that everything is gone when we say Lord , Lord?
No my friend , you earn salvation threw manifest.
You persecute , persecute , i reply again and again and you are not letting your focus of the evil , regerdless of how many good reasons i will give you.
There is no compromise between good and evil , good is good - evil is evil.
I choose the good and i justify it.
How many goods will have to be said untill we have some end?
All of them , i say no problem - but can you?
So you see when you started with three , i said ok i will commit myself in answering with precision.
So i give you 1/3 , the Holy Spirit.
You see people don't focus so much on the Gospel of Mark , but i do read everything
Mark 3:28–30:
"Truly I tell you, people will be forgiven for their sins and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit can never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin for they had said, "He has an unclean spirit.""
That's why i wanted to cut , regerdless of what you belive.
I was like that , i was full with questions and it led me to a point where i overvalued it and it came back on my shoulders.
So if you want to achieve the end , you have one more step , but you have to go alone on that road.
You decide it how it goes further , your choice, mine is finished.
I said to you once , you take that 1 % it's enough for me.
I will be happy if you take some advice from what i wrote.
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WonderingWorrier
Active Member
But Jesus also said multiple times that people couldnt understand what he was saying.
Like "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word".
Ok. You are saying the Holy Spirit is the sword. That is a specific thing to say.
Besides this one verse are there any other direct connections which might possibly verify that the Holy Spirit is in fact the sword?
I am listening to what you say. I can see there is a possible connection between the sword and the holy spirit. The connection of the Chaldeans.
The Lord hath opened his armoury, and hath brought forth the weapons of his indignation: for this is the work of the Lord God of hosts in the land of the Chaldeans. Jeremiah.
Connected to the Sword:
"A sword is upon the Chaldeans, saith the Lord, and upon the inhabitants of Babylon, and upon her princes, and upon her wise men". Jeremiah.
Connected to the Spirit of God:
"Afterwards the spirit took me up, and brought me in a vision by the Spirit of God into Chaldea, to them of the captivity. So the vision that I had seen went up from me". Ezekiel.
I notice the Chaldeans also have other connections to the sword. Chaldea has connections to the goat, the wilderness, and the dust position that I have mentioned earlier which share the same sword position.
Spear - Sword - Bow
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Desert - Wilderness - Mountain
Straw - Dust - Stubble
So it could be true the Holy Spirit is the sword as you are saying. There are multiple possible reasons connecting it to consider.
The Holy Spirit could be considered as being the Oil of these three:
Bread - Oil - Wine.
Thank you for teaching me about the Holy Spirit. Thank you for teaching me your 1/3.
Dimi95
Χριστός ἀνέστη
Hmmm.
Read the last Two Books of the Old Testament , i think that will help you a little bit..
This first hyperlinked Book - The Bible.
Can you assume , how many verses are connected to each other?
And how can that have effect on our conversation?
I read The Bible every day , and i study the same material over and over again.
Every time i learn something new - every time.
Your questions are vague , you are consistent on both ways(good and evil).
The Bible is different from that.
The effect of this conversation is infinite regression.
I don't want that, do you?
Look at this verses
Isaiah 5:20
"Woe to those who call evil good,and good evil,who put darkness for light and light for darkness,who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter."
Jeremiah 29:11
"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope."
Titus 2:11-12
"For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in this present age..."
Amos 5:14-15
"Seek good, not evil, that you may live. Then the Lord God Almighty will be with you, just as you say he is. Hate evil, love good; maintain justice in the courts."
Ephesians 6:12-13
"Our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand."
1 Corinthians 13:6-7
"Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."
Luke 11:13
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask for him."
Proverbs 12:13
"An evil man is trapped by his sinful talk, but a righteous man escapes trouble."
and ................
I just want to show you with what i stand against what you say.
And about Jesus and understanding:
Mark 11:27-33
"And they come again to Jerusalem: and as he was walking in the temple, there come to him the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders,
And say unto him, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority to do these things?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things.
The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me."
And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then did ye not believe him?
But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed.
And they answered and said unto Jesus, We cannot tell. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things."
Compare: Matthew 21:23-27; Luke 20:1-8
We need to go slowly , so you can find reasonable answers..
Verse by verse , story by story , meaning by meaning and we have to include circumstances also.
We may have to go back to already resolved discussions.
That is a long procces , but if you have time , i am here.
It's not a direct answer to what you said , but it is connected to what we discuss.
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WonderingWorrier
Active Member
Could the Holy Spirit be considered as a good thing? and could a sword be considered an evil thing? As you say the Holy Spirit is the sword.
Did you not know there are verses in the Bible that are considered as being violent and evil?
"Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?" Lamentations.
To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings. Proverbs.
As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the Lord our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth. Daniel.
To understand the words is to know both good and evil.
Because in this way even the nonsense of the Bible also makes sense.
"Rebuke the company of spearmen, the multitude of the bulls, with the calves of the people, till every one submit himself with pieces of silver: scatter thou the people that delight in war". Psalm.
Brass - Silver - Gold
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Spear - Sword - Bow
There is no war in the bible. Thinking of war is misunderstanding what the words are saying.
Dimi95
Χριστός ἀνέστη
Holy Spirit is good , and his sword is good.
The crucial thing is that you use the sword as weapon to attach it to the Holy Spirit.It has a different meaning when you use it with the Holy Spirit , it is different from how you define it.
You can look at the many verses that i showed you , how the good is separate from the evil.
"To understand the words is to know both good and evil." - you said
What will a man be if he use "sword" differently? Surely not a beliver , and Jesus explained this before he was arrested :
Matthew 26:50-56
"Jesus replied - Do what you came for, friend.”
Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him.With that, one of Jesus’ companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way? In that hour Jesus said to the crowd: Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me.But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled.
Then all the disciples deserted him and fled. "
Do you see the difference?
When someone as Peter uses the sword to harm someone , regardless of the purpose he does not follow Christ.
So , is he really leading a rebbelion ?
To understand the Old Testament you have to read The New.
And then you can go back to the Old.
John 1:17
"because while the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."
Romans 8:3:
“For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.”
Paul thinks of sin as a cosmic tyrant. It's not just an individual problem, but a problem of essential mode existence for the world. The law, or divine command, was supposed to be an opportunity for humans to realize their true calling of acting in God’s image voluntarily. Instead, we chose and choose to disobey and now live “enslaved” to our decision(s).
Deuteronomy 6:4-8:
"Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one! You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up. You shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as frontals on your forehead. You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates."
These passages mirror each other, as they teach that acting wisely fulfills the law.
Paul showed how he continued to use the laws as wisdom literature.
1 Corinthians 9:9-12:
"For it is written in the Law of Moses, 'You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing.' God is not concerned about oxen, is He? Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, for our sake it was written, because the plowman ought to plow in hope, and the thresher to thresh in hope of sharing the crops. If we sowed spiritual things in you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? If others share the right over you, do we not more? Nevertheless, we did not use this right, but we endure all things so that we will cause no hindrance to the gospel of Christ."
I will quote Richard B. Hays to explain :
"This is often cited as an example of arbitrary prooftexting on Paul’s part, but closer observation demonstrates a more complex hermeneutical strategy at play here. First of all, Paul is operating with an explicitly stated hermeneutical principle that God is really concerned about human beings, not oxen, and that the text should be read accordingly (vv. 9–10). Second, a careful look at the context of Deuteronomy 25:4 lends some credence to Paul’s claim about this particular text. The surrounding laws in Deuteronomy 24 and 25 (especially Deut. 24:6–7, 10–22; 25:1–3) almost all serve to promote dignity and justice for human beings; the one verse about the threshing ox sits oddly in this context. It is not surprising that Paul would have read this verse also as suggesting something about justice in human economic affairs.”
-- Richard B. Hays, First Corinthians, Interpretation, a Bible Commentary for Teaching and Preaching (Louisville, KY: John Knox Press, 1997), 151.
You should read the whole Lamentations, don't just put it as a single verse.Read Lamentations 3 from the beggining to understand it.
It has a different message.
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
I am not understanding you saying "sword is good". How can a sword be good. It is an instrument of violence and death.
Are you just saying the sword is good because you think the Holy Spirit is good. That doesnt make a sword into a good thing. And some could think a spirit with a sword doesnt sound friendly.
Do you think that the sword is good because you think the Holy Spirit on your side? Good vs evil.
There is no connection there. In battle both sides will think that they are the good side, fighting for what is right. History shows wars between Christians and Christians, all killing each other in the name of Jesus.
Do you think the sword is good when it is a defensive sword?
There is no connection there. Two wrongs dont make a good.
Can you explain exactly why the sword is good.
Jesus also said those without a sword should sell their garments and buy one, and he specifically said he didnt come to bring peace, he came to bring the sword. So some might think killing others in the name of Jesus is a good thing, and some do.
Consider the good and the evil mentioned in the bible as being the blessing and the cursing of the law.
And afterward he read all the words of the law, the blessings and cursings, according to all that is written in the book of the law. Joshua
Consider the curses (evil) and the blessings (good) are saying the same things.
If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the Lord of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart. Malachi
Consider if in this way every curse could in fact be a blessing.
Dimi95
Χριστός ἀνέστη
Again , guidence is Spiritual , not materialized.
Again , please read my answers and don't ignore them.
Sword is a spiritual weapon in Christianity , so to accept Christ is to accept the Bible , every word of it , 66 Books , 1200 pages.
That means , greatest commandment is love.
You have your choice , given be God , Yes or No.
Again:
Matthew 26:47-56
Jessus Arrested
"While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: "The one I kiss is the man; arrest him."Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him.
Jesus replied, “Do what you came for, friend.”
Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him.With that, one of Jesus’ companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear."Put your sword back in its place,"Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”In that hour Jesus said to the crowd, “Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me.But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled.Then all the disciples deserted him and fled."
So you see , Jesus clearly says that who uses the sword for violience , with violence will die,but it also means that whoever uses the sword for good ... well we will found out one day , or not?
Read Ecclesiastes to know something more...
In Jesus the curse becomes a blessing.
In the Christian religion, the Resurrection is Jesus Christ's return to life after his death.
So the sin becomes a blessing , Christ triumphed over sin and death by being physically resurrected, so that all who trust in him are raised to new life in this world and to everlasting life in the world to come.
Do you not see the connection with "the Fall of Man"?
Who can plan this , except God?
There you see the wisdom of
2 Corinthians 12:10
"Therefore I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities for the sake of Christ; for whenever I am weak, then I am strong."
Where was Christ weakest according to scripture?
Crucifixion
Matthew 27:38-44
"Two rebels were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads and saying, "You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!" In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him."He saved others," they said, "but he can’t save himself! He’s the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him.He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’"In the same way the rebels who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him."
So you see you ignore the fact what he was accused of , and how did he answer to that.
INRI
"Iesus Nazarenus Rex Iudaeorum'' meaning ''Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews''.
This was the notice Pontius Pilate nailed over Jesus as he lay dying on the cross.
In the New Testament, Pilate writes "Jesus the Nazarene, King of the Jews" as a sign to be affixed to the cross of Jesus. John 19:21 states that the Jews told Pilate: "Do not write King of the Jews" but instead write that Jesus had merely claimed that title, but Pilate wrote it anyway.
How do you go around this?
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WonderingWorrier
Active Member
We have words in the physical form of a book with the guidance that we are discussing.
I read your answers, I am still requesting clarification of you saying the sword is good. Why is the sword good? Where is the connection?
The word "sword" appears 404 times in the Bible. Does your understanding of the Holy Spirit being the sword also include the Holy Spirit being mentioned in the other 403 sword verses? And does your understanding of the sword being good also include every time it is mentioned in the Bible?
No. I do not see.
I showed you other verses of Jesus speaking towards violence. How do you explain that?
Now you are saying Jesus clearly says....... But can you show me at what point is the "whoever uses the sword for good"? I have read the verses you quoted and I have put repeated extra attention on your highlights. But I still cant see it.
Saying well we will find out one day or not, seems to imply you dont know how a sword is good.
Being unable to provide simple clear connections could be regarded as assumption. Do you assume the sword is good?
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
Jesus was weakest when he said that he was the bread.
He wasnt speaking highly of himself. He sacrificed himself heavenly.
Bread - Oil - Wine
Spear - Sword - Bow
The bread who was pierced by a spear.
Dimi95
Χριστός ἀνέστη
I think we talked about words in previous discussion, do we need to talk about it again?
Sword
Revelation 19:15
"Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter."He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty."
And let's go to previous discussed topic
Luke 22:36-38
Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"
"Nothing,” they answered.He said to them - "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."
The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
“That’s enough!” he replied.
The saying is heavily ironical, for Jesus knew that now He would have to face universal opposition and be put to death. But the disciples misunderstood Him and produced weapons. 'That is enough', said Jesus to end a conversation which they had failed to understand.Jesus' command to His disciples to “sell your cloak and buy a sword” entails metaphorical advice to prepare them for the perils of ministry after His crucifixion and ascension; others take this Bible verse literally as divine permission to carry arms and use them.
So here you can find more answers about the sword and what is the meaning of the sword in Christianity
Sword of the Spirit: How the Word of God Puts Satan on Defense
The sword of the Spirit is how Paul describes the word of God and its role in driving back the forces of spiritual darkness.
renew.org
I tought you knew that the One who comes will speak in parabels.
Matthew 13:34-35
"All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world."
Witch fullfils the prophecy of Isaiah
He said, “Go and tell this people:
‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding;be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’
Make the heart of this people calloused;make their ears dull and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,hear with their ears,understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”
Jeremiah 29:13
"And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart."
So let's go to heart
God’s greatest commandment to us it to “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ Mark12:30
Many of the following Bible verses about the heart are related to one’s personal health and wellness.
Proverbs 4:23 – Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life.
Proverbs 14:30 – A heart at peace gives life to the body, but envy rots the bones.
Proverbs 15:13 – A happy heart makes the face cheerful, but heartache crushes the spirit.
Proverbs 17:22 – A cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones.
Proverbs 27:19 – As water reflects a face, so a man’s heart reflects the man.
Proverbs 28:14 – Blessed is the man who always fears the LORD, but he who hardens his heart falls into trouble.
Matthew 9:22 – Jesus turned and saw her. “Take heart, daughter,” he said, “your faith has healed you.” And the woman was healed from that moment.
Matthew 11:29 – Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
Matthew 12:34 – You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.
Luke 6:45 – The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.
Matthew 13:15 – For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’
Matthew 15:18 – But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man ‘unclean.’
Matthew 15:19 – For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.
Matthew 18:35 – ”This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”
Matthew 22:37 – Jesus replied: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
Mark 7:21-22 – For from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.
Luke 21:34 – “Watch out! Don’t let your hearts be dulled by carousing and drunkenness, and by the worries of this life.
John 7:38 – Anyone who believes in me may come and drink! For the Scriptures declare, ‘Rivers of living water will flow from his heart.’”
John 14:1 – [ Jesus, the Way to the Father ] “Don’t let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God, and trust also in me.
John 14:27 – “I am leaving you with a gift—peace of mind and heart. And the peace I give is a gift the world cannot give. So don’t be troubled or afraid.
Romans 5:5 – And this hope will not lead to disappointment. For we know how dearly God loves us, because he has given us the Holy Spirit to fill our hearts with his love.
Romans 10:9-10 – If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.
*And this is not simple as you think , people strugle untill words are said.
Ephesians 1:18 – I pray that your hearts will be flooded with light so that you can understand the confident hope he has given to those he called—his holy people who are his rich and glorious inheritance.
Philippians 4:7 – Then you will experience God’s peace, which exceeds anything we can understand. His peace will guard your hearts and minds as you live in Christ Jesus.
Philippians 2:1 – [ Have the Attitude of Christ ] Is there any encouragement from belonging to Christ? Any comfort from his love? Any fellowship together in the Spirit? Are your hearts tender and compassionate?
Colossians 3:15 – And let the peace that comes from Christ rule in your hearts. For as members of one body you are called to live in peace. And always be thankful.
Hebrews 10:22 – Let us go right into the presence of God with sincere hearts fully trusting him. For our guilty consciences have been sprinkled with Christ’s blood to make us clean, and our bodies have been washed with pure water.
Ephesians 3:16-18 – I pray that from his glorious, unlimited resources he will empower you with inner strength through his Spirit. Then Christ will make his home in your hearts as you trust in him. Your roots will grow down into God’s love and keep you strong. And may you have the power to understand, as all God’s people should, how wide, how long, how high, and how deep his love is.
What troubles you with this , tell me ?
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
Yes please. I am trying to understand what you are saying.
Can you answer this for me:
Because I would like to know if you are being consistent or selective when you say the Holy Spirit is the sword, the sword is good.
Like you now say
You are showing me a sword that strikes down nations. So are you saying this is a good thing?
Are you saying the sword is the Holy Spirit that strikes down nations?
That could be considered a fair point if you could explain the sword that they fail to understand. If you cant explain it that could seem the reason you think differently about the sword is only because you have to accept every word of the bible so you twist the words to make you feel comfortable.
These "others" will also think the sword is good too.
Dimi95
Χριστός ἀνέστη
Ephesians 6:17
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God."
What is here twisted my friend?
You are ignoring circumstences in OT , and you are consistent on verses of the OT,anything that is in the NT - you are ignoring it.And i give you a little bit only , not too much...
You are writing passages that are meaningless without previous explenations.
Whenever i had something explained to you it was threw few verses from chapters.
1 Peter 3:10-12
"For, 'Whoever would love life and see good days must keep their tongue from evil and their lips from deceitful speech. They must turn from evil and do good; they must seek peace and pursue it."
What is here twisted and not understandable?
Mark 16:17
"And these signs will follow those who believe… they will speak with new tongues."
The first time anybody spoke in tongues was on the day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit was poured out on the apostles, as related in Acts 2:1-12. The apostles spoke the gospel to the crowds in Jerusalem, and what they said could be understood by people speaking many different languages: “… we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.” Acts 2:11.
Later Paul also writes about the gift of speaking in tongues, in 1 Corinthians 12 and 14. However, here he writes that the person speaking in tongues doesn’t speak in an understandable language: “no one understands him; however in his spirit he speaks mysteries.”
1 Corinthians 14:2.
"Yet this gift that has been given to believers can be of benefit to the recipients and used to edify others in Christian gatherings."
Jesus strikes the nations - yes.
He used parables and stories to teach us about the kingdom of God. But his greatest method is teaching by example. His deeds taught us about many Christian values, such as kindness and compassion. He accepted disciples from all walks of life.
But i want to ask you something , who is really here with spears , swords and bowls ?
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
I'm not ignoring the bible. I am listening to your explanation of it.
The good and evil is twisted and not understandable. With contradicting verses it would come down to personal perspective. One mans good is another mans evil. But a man will not think of himself as evil. Even Hitler would have thought he was a good person doing the right thing.
The answer is simple. Nobody. There are no spears, swords, or bows.
Dimi95
Χριστός ἀνέστη
Look , i can tell you what the book teaches , but perspective is another thing..
I would agree on that with you.
But the bible in it's full message condemns that
Matthew 7:12
"...So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."
I think this verse is simple but with deep wisdom.
At the end , guidence needs commitment , dedication and faith.
I think that it's fair to say:
"Your actions – the ones that others will judge – will ensure that you are defined by others in exactly the same way you have deliberately and thoughtfully defined yourself."