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Defining Free Will

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There are a lot of debates regarding whether people have free will or not. I've never seen a definition of free will that I find to be satisfactory, though. I feel that if it's not properly defined, the question of whether people have something is not very meaningful.

For those here that believe in free will, can you please provide your definition of free will? For clarity, depending on your position it may help to define what a will is, and then to explain how a free will is different than a will that is not free.

Thanks.
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
I consider myself to be a Causal Determinist with regards to the question of free will.
I wrote an article about that very subject some time ago in which I had to try to come up with a working definition of what free will is and this is what I decided was a useful way of putting it:

"To me free will can only mean that we are, as it were, free agents in the sense that any decision we make is our own, based on several internal factors, not dictated by an external entity, but still dependant upon the external information of our current situation."

For those who are interested here is the full article: Random thoughts about Science and the World - Do we have free will?
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
I don't think we have it, we may choose the cause but we don't choose the effect.

Isn't Will our destiny? We don't choose our destiny, just our actions to get that destiny, and sometimes we fail.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
And no one knows when their actions are their own?

Someone twisting your arm that you do something?

If so....the guy twisting your arm has no will?...someone twisting his arm?

(so to speak)

Perhaps the respondents here are simply overwhelmed by life....
and feel they have no control.

Many things inhibit our preferences.
We make choices of circumstances at hand.

I say you are as free as you are able.

Ever hear is said?....
'The spirit is WILLING....but the flesh is weak.'
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
And no one knows when their actions are their own?
That's it in a nutshell. That there is an "I" that "does things" is free will.

"I" is the recognition of an agent.

"Will" is the recognition of agency. That implies possession --possession of thought, possession of what the "I" does, possession of intent, and of the consequences.

All this takes place in thought.
 

EverChanging

Well-Known Member
As I understand it, free will must involve some kind of self-causal agency, but I reject the concept of causality. I also don't believe in the idea of a continuous self. No one is causing the brain and the biological machine to do anything. It does as it was evolved to do.

I can give a definition of what I call volition, however. The behavior of an organism is volitional. This gives it a range of flexibility so as to make the behavior of even one well-known human-being somewhat unpredictable. This gives us an illusion of "freedom," and it can be a healthy one. But freedom is still an illusion, for the brain is acting according to the laws of physics, biochemistry, and electricity, as it has evolved to do according to natural laws. Though we cannot predict every variable of an on-coming storm, this does not make the activity of the storm exempt from natural laws of behavior. So it is with volitional behavior of an organism.

Free will seems to be grounded in the belief that free will exists or else determinism is true. I reject this. I am not a determinist. The idea of causality is an a priori assumption for which there is no proof. Yes, I understand that it is a helpful assumption in practice. The scientific method could not exist without this assumption. But philosophically speaking, this is still an assumption. As physicists learn more about the nature of time and begin to peer into the apparent lack of causality on the quantum realm and knowledge of the brain and psychology continues to increase, I begin to suspect that causality may be a result of how we perceive the world. That is, we have evolved to perceive causality, but it may be an illusion. That is not to say that it is not real, but that it is not what it seems to be. Indeed, I suspect that what exists is in reality a causal loop, not a causal chain.

And if this is the case, everything is written in stone in a causal loop, but it is not determined in the traditional sense of that word. Every event in my life simultaneously exists in different spatio-temporal locations, and whereas there is the illusion of movement, no movement is actually occurring. Time is an "eternal instance." Some of this is still highly theoretical, of course.

In any case, in order to consider questions of causality, determinism, and free will, I still have to deal with the issues of the nature of time, the nature of the self, the nature of causality, and the nature of movement.

These particular questions come to me about the nature of movement through space: How can anything possibly be moving? How can a bit of matter move through a point of infinite space? Is the fact that particles seem to disappear and reappear in different locations on the microscopic realm evidence that movement is an illusion?

All of these questions are relevant to the ideas of causality and free will. I have never come across an adequate definition of free will, and I've never read anything from legitimate scientific sources that convinced me of its existence, whatever it is.
 
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The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
How do we "choose a cause"? Can you give an example? Do you mean assign a cause?

Basically that.

Like I have the freewill of assigning the cause, but not freewill of assigning the affect.

Example: I'm going to run, but I don't know the outcome so I don't have freewill over the outcome.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
As I understand it, free will must involve some kind of self-causal agency, but I reject the concept of causality.

All of these questions are relevant to the ideas of causality and free will. I have never come across an adequate definition of free will, and I've never read anything from legitimate scientific sources that convinced me of its existence, whatever it is.
Well, how about the will then. What is that?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
That's it in a nutshell. That there is an "I" that "does things" is free will.

"I" is the recognition of an agent.

"Will" is the recognition of agency. That implies possession --possession of thought, possession of what the "I" does, possession of intent, and of the consequences.

All this takes place in thought.

Aren't you then saying there there is no free will, but that there is an illusion of same as a side-effect of the sense of identity?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
That there is an "I" that "does things" is free will.
So what is a will that isn't free, an "I" that "doesn't do things"?

Will" is the recognition of agency. That implies possession --possession of thought, possession of what the "I" does, possession of intent, and of the consequences.

All this takes place in thought.
At what age then do you suppose an organism, say a human, gets a free will? When it finally recognizes an agency (whatever that is)? At 2 years old? 5 years old? In high school or later? Do people who are mentally retarded and lack the ability to recognizes an agency also lack a free will?
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Aren't you then saying there there is no free will, but that there is an illusion of same as a side-effect of the sense of identity?
I would never make a claim of "no existence" of a thing. I don't believe in non-existents, and avoid wording things that way. I do believe free will exists in the manner I described. I am saying there is free will.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Perhaps someone could start by clearly identifying the difference between free will and plain old will.

Far as I know, the only one that has ever been proposed is that free will does not come (directly?) from God. That is why it is called free - because everything else is supposedly shaped by God's Will, according to those who propose the existence of free will.

I may easily be mistaken, but that IS the closest to a working knowledge of the concept that I have.
 

EverChanging

Well-Known Member
Well, how about the will then. What is that?

I have yet to be convinced that it is not an illusion. First of all, whose will? The brain acts as it has evolved to act by natural laws -- that is, according to the laws of physics, biochemistry, and electricity, and it is this brain that volitional behavior is rooted in. There need not be any ghost in the machine pushing buttons and pulling levers, telling the brain how to create volitional behavior. It creates volitional behavior in the way it has naturally evolved to do.

Secondly, scientific experiments have revealed that humans are at times unable to say whether an event was caused by their own volition or by an external agent. Indeed, humans invent false intentions in retrospect and often find themselves mistaken about what they had really intended. References to such experiments are made in this article.

I suggest reading the book The Illusion of Conscious Will, by Daniel Wegner.

It makes sense that our perceptions of our own intentions are not objective. Of course they aren't objective. Nothing about perception is objective. This gives rise to the illusion of free will or choice.

In truth, I can't tell you what a "will" is any more than I can tell you what a "free will" is. The concept simply is not coherent to me at all.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I would never make a claim of "no existence" of a thing. I don't believe in non-existents, and avoid wording things that way. I do believe free will exists in the manner I described. I am saying there is free will.

You are? It sure looked like an alternate name for the sense of identity - and implicitly, therefore also not a true free will but rather an illusion.


To put it in another way: I understood that you are saying that when one thinks of himself as "I" he is acting as if he believe that he had free will. But is that enough to justify the existence of the concept, much less to define it?
 
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Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
So what is a will that isn't free, an "I" that "doesn't do things"?
There is "will," and there is "against my will." Will is free as long as there's "I" in the picture. If it wasn't "I" that "did a thing," there's no ownership.

All it takes is to word a sequence of events to eliminate the "I" and we rob the picture of any trace of ownership.

At what age then do you suppose an organism, say a human, gets a free will? When it finally recognizes an agency (whatever that is)? At 2 years old? 5 years old? In high school or later? Do people who are mentally retarded and lack the ability to recognizes an agency also lack a free will?
I'm clueless about babies. I'd guess within the first year.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
You are? It sure looked like an alternate name for the sense of identity - and implicitly, therefore also not a true free will but rather an illusion.


To put it in another way: I understood that you are saying that when one thinks of himself as "I" he is acting as if he believe that he had free will. But is that enough to justify the existence of the concept, much less to define it?
Yup. :)
 

EverChanging

Well-Known Member
Really? Because it looks quite speculative a concept to me. At best.
That's because it is. I am still not convinced that my self-hood is not an illusion, much less causality or anything else I've discussed thus far.
 
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