1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Deadbeat Dads

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by Mr. Skittles, Aug 7, 2012.

  1. Mr. Skittles

    Mr. Skittles Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2012
    Messages:
    652
    Ratings:
    +14
    Like I said nothing much to read. Your the one firing shots. I don't need to write a dissertation to respond to someone. What have you said that is relevant? Absolutely nothing. I await for your dissertation like response.
     
  2. Debater Slayer

    Debater Slayer Born-again Glompist
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    19,639
    Ratings:
    +12,088
    Religion:
    Meditation
    QED: If a woman is behaving badly toward a woman, they both aren't being victimized and should know better than to treat a man like crap.

    My.Logic.Rocks.So.Much. :faint:
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Mr. Skittles

    Mr. Skittles Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2012
    Messages:
    652
    Ratings:
    +14
    (Takes a deep breathe)

    If anyone cared to read the subject I spoke heavily on the subject in relation to Gabby Douglas and her calling her father a deadbeat dad....You might want to read the first post.
     
  4. MysticSang'ha

    MysticSang'ha Big Squishy Hugger
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2006
    Messages:
    26,933
    Ratings:
    +6,257
    :biglaugh:

    Awesome. :clap
     
  5. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    69,512
    Ratings:
    +26,166
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    I was meaning to make a general statement. But sense you mentioned it, I've known some man-hating lesbians, and certainly plenty of women hate each other, but I don't think I've met a gay man who hated women. I'm sure they're out there though; but to indulge in an over generalization, it's like women and gay men were naturally meant to be friends. It's a man, so it's not another woman, but a man who doesn't shy away from emotions and can also help you keep you looking good.
     
  6. Mathematician

    Mathematician Reason, and reason again

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,722
    Ratings:
    +612
    Statistically women are far more likely to be deadbeats than men, actually. It's not misogynistic to say that women are more often given a "free pass" by the legal system: from criminal procedures to legal mandates (child care, custody), courts typically favor women. As I mentioned earlier, upwards of 85% of men who owe child care payments are deemed non-negligent, while less than 10% of women can claim the same level of responsibility.
     
  7. Mathematician

    Mathematician Reason, and reason again

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,722
    Ratings:
    +612
    No, I don't believe in court-ordered abortions or mandated pregnancies. I already stated my position extends from the idea that freedom entails responsibility. Men have no freedom during those nine months.

    If the laws were changed, what would happen? More abortions? Oh well. Financing your personal decision with another person's money when he stated he does not want to care for a child in any way is unethical, in my opinion.
     
    #87 Mathematician, Aug 12, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2012
  8. Rakhel

    Rakhel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2009
    Messages:
    7,824
    Ratings:
    +828
    Religion:
    Spiritually Awake
    G-d I miss Paul:(
     
  9. MysticSang'ha

    MysticSang'ha Big Squishy Hugger
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2006
    Messages:
    26,933
    Ratings:
    +6,257
    Still not following you. Let's try this:

    1) An unintended pregnancy occurs. Who's responsible for it?
    2) The man and woman disagree on having the pregnancy continue, the man wants her to have an abortion, the woman wants to carry the child to term and give the baby up for adoption. What is ethically the best decision?
    3) The woman wants to have an abortion, but the man wants to keep the baby. What is the ethical decision here?
    4) The woman wants to keep the baby, but the man wants to give the baby up for adoption. Best decision?

    My take is that these situations are far from simple, since both the man AND the woman are finding themselves in unintended pregnancies in compromised positions, and that choosing to continue in a pregnancy is nothing like choosing to keep a pet when your partner doesn't want it.

    And, sorry....I had to laugh at your sentiment that choosing a pregnancy for a woman is total freedom. You try being free when you're gestating a fetus for nine months. You know....like morning sickness 24/7, mammory glands getting out of control, stretch marks, swollen ankles, gestational diabetes, severe mood swings from the hormone roller coaster, backaches, headaches, heartburn, constipation....and then being REALLY constipated.

    That's the face of freedom? Hilarious.
     
  10. Rakhel

    Rakhel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2009
    Messages:
    7,824
    Ratings:
    +828
    Religion:
    Spiritually Awake
    The weird cravings, the kid kicking you in the butt for the last trimester, dehydration, needles, catheters, and if you Rh don't match... talk about an allergic reaction from hell!!!(or that's what I called it.) Loss of appetite, being forced to eat even though you want to throw it back up.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. kai

    kai ragamuffin

    Joined:
    May 23, 2006
    Messages:
    16,610
    Ratings:
    +1,147
    people are people, Some Fathers do "opt out" and are useless, some mothers use the kids as weapons or bargaining chips.

    I used to pay my ex "unofficially" every month on the dot , it was an informal arrangement between us .When i found someone else she took me to court for child support saying i didn't pay anything, and i had no proof i paid her, it didn't matter much though the judge ordered i pay the same amount i was already paying.

    The whole court experience was nothing but a tit for tat slanging match, not a good experience and for some reason i felt like people were viewing me as "deadbeat dad" just by being there.

    In my case it was ,if i didn't have my daughter when she said , i didn't get her at all. So all in all her taking me to court all worked out in my favour in the end ,and back fired on her.

    I ended up with official paperwork stating contact days etc which ended the emotional blackmail.

    for years here in the UK the courts were unevenly balanced in favour of the Mother,and everyone knew it. but its getting better now slowly.


    In my experience men and women are both capable of being selfish, vindictive, and controlling when it comes to children.
     
    #91 kai, Aug 12, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2012
  12. MysticSang'ha

    MysticSang'ha Big Squishy Hugger
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2006
    Messages:
    26,933
    Ratings:
    +6,257
    EXACTLY.

    To say that one gender is more selfish, more vindictive, or more controlling when it comes to children is the very definition of sexism.
     
  13. MysticSang'ha

    MysticSang'ha Big Squishy Hugger
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2006
    Messages:
    26,933
    Ratings:
    +6,257
    *ahem*

    Oh, and I'm reposting this with an unemotional facial expression. I am so channeling the spirit of Epictetus.
     
  14. Draka

    Draka Wonder Woman

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2005
    Messages:
    19,120
    Ratings:
    +4,787
    Religion:
    Lasso of Truth
    Then he should not have made the personal decision to do something which could have resulted in a possible child. That was his personal decision. He should not expect her to have an abortion just because he doesn't want to care for a child. He should have thought about that beforehand. Pregnancy is always a risk of sex and anyone who has sex should be prepared to deal with the consequences attached to it. Isn't this why we tell our kids to wait until they are old enough to handle the consequences?
     
  15. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    69,512
    Ratings:
    +26,166
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    Criminal proceedings depends more on the specific crime. There are certain crimes that women are more likely than men to commit (such as property damage), and there are crimes that men are more likely to commit than women (such as violence). When you commit a crime that is more normal for your sex, then you are more likely to be punished.

    Why is it a man should be able to freely have sex, and not have to assume the responsibility should one of his sperm join with an ovum and produce a baby? But yet the woman is just stuck with all the responsibility just because she is the one that has to carry and deliver the baby? Why is it that having a penis gives you an excuse to abandon the responsibility of taking care of the child that you are 50% responsible for making, but the woman must carry the entire burden even though she too is 50% responsible for making the child?
     
    #95 Shadow Wolf, Aug 12, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2012
  16. Mathematician

    Mathematician Reason, and reason again

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,722
    Ratings:
    +612
    Er, a small correction: men aren't more likely to commit violent crime. Countless studies demonstrate women abuse their partners just as often as men. In most domestic violence relationships both partners are guilty (for example Rihanna and Chris Brown - Rihanna admited to hitting men with blunt objects until they bruised as a "joke," etc.). Usually less damage is inflicted by women due to size difference and the legal/penal system are more lenient, but the idea men are typically more violent is simply untrue. Our society just laughs off violence against men and beholds them to remain silent.

    I said a man is ethically responsible for half of the cost of an abortion, not completely free to wash his hands. Retaining the child is completely the choice of the woman and requires more medical supervision than a first or second trimester abortion (even if it's natural and not a C-section). She can use that money however she wishes, but after that, it's her responsibility. He didn't want the child. She did. If she didn't, she would have opted for an abortion or adoption. If you need to rely on an unwilling father to finance a child, you shouldn't have a child. Single parenthood is more often than not a bane on society. The current state of affairs just subsidizes a huge bureaucratic machine that targets men and lets women off the hook. Refer back to my two posts on how women get away with child support. There's nothing immoral about abortion.
     
    #96 Mathematician, Aug 12, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2012
  17. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    59,053
    Ratings:
    +16,909
    Religion:
    None (atheist)
    This is the difference between getting off free and getting off cheap. You're splitting hairs.

    And in a place like Canada, where abortion is funded by our public health care system, you are talking about letting the man off the hook completely.

    And if the man didn't want a child, he would have opted for contraception. How is there any ethical difference at all? I've asked you this before, but AFAICT, you never really addressed it.

    I kind of see what you're getting at here, but I think you're being wrong-headed: mitigation of damages is the legal principle that says that a person who has been wronged has an obligation act in a reasonable way to limit the amount of damages that occur... for instance, if you discover that your ceiling is dripping water because of a problem with the plumbing of the apartment above, you still have to do things like let the superintendent know, move your valuables out of the way, and put a bucket under the drip. If you don't do these things, then the guy upstairs is still only liable for the amount that would have been damaged if you had acted reasonably.

    It seems to me that the implicit message in your argument is that abortion is the "reasonable" thing to do in the case of a pregnancy that the man doesn't want... or rather, that if the man doesn't want the pregnancy, it's unreasonable for the woman not to get an abortion. Just as we consider you to be acting unreasonably if you don't move your antique whatsit up off the floor before the water dripping from upstairs hits it, you're implying that we should consider a woman to be acting unreasonably if she doesn't get an abortion.

    Like I said, I think this is wrong-headed. I think both having an abortion and not having one are reasonable approaches to the situation, and therefore neither one should be used as some sort of trigger to end the man's responsibility.

    And if you don't want a kid but need to rely on the woman to make sure that contraception is taken care of, then you shouldn't be having sex.

    The issue isn't with the morality of abortion itself; the issue is with the morality of creating a financial penalty to push women into abortion.
     
    #97 9-10ths_Penguin, Aug 12, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2012
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    69,512
    Ratings:
    +26,166
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    Even half of the abortion is still refusing to "man up" and take the responsibility of your own actions. If he didn't want the child, he shouldn't have been having sex.
    But I can say, you may not be a deadbeat, but I surely would not want to have a child with someone with your mentality, that is of being only responsible for covering half of an abortion which is something I do not consider an option. Actually I think I'd prefer the deadbeat because they may feel they are powerless when it comes to being forced to accept responsibility. Actually trying to pass off responsibility like you seem to think is acceptable is, in my books, one of the characteristics of a dead beat.
    I know drug dealers that don't exactly qualify for a dad of the year coffee mug, but even they realize it is their child and thus they have a responsibility towards their child.
    And you can be assured, if some man tried to throw me money to get the baby aborted that would be the quickest way to ensure I do go after him in court, and for everything I could get out of him.
     
    #98 Shadow Wolf, Aug 12, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2012
  19. Draka

    Draka Wonder Woman

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2005
    Messages:
    19,120
    Ratings:
    +4,787
    Religion:
    Lasso of Truth
    :clap Exactly!

    :clap And again!


    Also, perhaps it might be a good idea to actually find out about a woman and how she feels about abortion before one starts knockin boots with her in the first place. Even many women who are pro-choice wouldn't have an abortion themselves. Even though they may support the right of a woman to choose that option doesn't mean it is something they would do for themselves. Therefore, their way of "taking responsibility" for a pregnancy is to do just that...have the child. Whether or not they keep the child or put it up for adoption is something to be worked out.
     
  20. Mathematician

    Mathematician Reason, and reason again

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,722
    Ratings:
    +612
    Why is it assumed that the male failed or even complicity rejected use of a contraceptive? Most unintentional pregnancies occur because contraceptive's inherent statistical failure rate or the woman was negligent with her pill/patch schedule. Until the male birth control becomes widely available it's really hard for a man to be negligent without the woman's implicit consent. Condoms are visible to both partners. And why is it accepted fact that a man must accept whatever decision a woman decides regardless of the repercussions to his financial and emotional well-being?

    Again I reiterate: this line of reasoning is dissociated from reality and can be reversed in statements such as women shouldn't be having sex willy-nilly if she wants a reliable father figure.

    I'm not offended by your remark, but your mindset is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. It's also a logical fallacy many women use on men to make them feel guilty, as if they're betraying their role. I'm not susceptible to such feelings anymore. I don't regularly have sex with pro-life women. If the discussion of what would occur in case of a pregnancy progresses, I straight-up tell my partners that I would be emotionally and financially supportive of an abortion or adoption, but nothing more. The decision to retain a child would have been completely hers. I didn't want a child. I wouldn't have paid for her decision.

    As a sidenote: I'm at a point where I would support my partner retaining a child. I purposely used past tense. But that would be my personal decision.

    Users are insisting that the man is rejecting his responsibility. I reject that notion entirely. It's not even an example of natural distinction.

    Penguin:
    No, the woman doesn't have to provide for financial service either in such cases.
     
    #100 Mathematician, Aug 12, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2012
Loading...