Deadbeat Dads

[MysticSang'ha]

I can sympathize with Rakhel's position. My ex and I met, fell in love, got married, had two kids, and I divorced him because of his alcohol abuse and refusing to get help for his addiction.

After our divorce, he refused child support payments because he had stated that I was in no position to ask for any since I was "using the system" by being a stay at home mom. He explicitly threatened ME with sole custody because....and I quote....."You're an unfit mom since you stay home with the kids all day long."

During that time, he moved in with a girlfriend, got kicked out of her house because of his addiction, became homeless and disappeared for two years, and only called me to talk to me and not the kids - and harassed me for divorcing him. I continued throughout the time asking him to get help for his addiction, and he refused for years.

He eventually hit rock bottom and got help for his alcohol addiction. He got a job, met and married his current wife, they had two children, and now pays child support. I encourage the kids to see him whenever they can and whenever he asks. He and his wife recently moved two hours away from us, and we all have been able to coordinate visitation more often.

If I hear of a man who says his ex is "threatening him with child support", that would be as if I heard somebody said they were being threatened with paying sales tax for an item they purchased. Paying child support is the law, and the state encourages birth parents of children who still retain parental rights to have a bond together. It's in the child's best interest, which is what really matters.

Child support isn't a war between what's best for either of the parents, you know. For years I received $128 a month for two kids from my ex after he started paying, and I didn't ask for more because I knew my ex was struggling while rebuilding his life. It wasn't until he got his full time job when we communicated about how to create a better life for the kids we made together.

It's all about the kids. That's why the statements on the radio show anger many people, because the guys are wanting to make it all about them.

 

[Mathematician]

It's all anecdotal. There are men who are lazy bums who could care less about children they once fathered, and there are women who are vindictive about the relationship failing who could care less about their children.

Gender doesn't matter. A lot of people just are selfish.

 

[ChristineES]

If men don't want to take care of any children, then he can get a vasectomy. Women don't get pregnant by themselves. If a man makes a baby, he needs to take care of that child- emotionally and financially until the child is an adult, the same as mother does.

 

[idav]

It's all anecdotal. There are men who are lazy bums who could care less about children they once fathered, and there are women who are vindictive about the relationship failing who could care less about their children.

Gender doesn't matter. A lot of people just are selfish.

This is true. A system has developed that targets dead-beat dads but it is also a system that gets taken advantage of just like welfare. As people take advantage it just ends up hurting the people who really need the services.

 

[Mathematician]

If men don't want to take care of any children, then he can get a vasectomy. Women don't get pregnant by themselves. If a man makes a baby, he needs to take care of that child- emotionally and financially until the child is an adult, the same as mother does.

Why can't he just pay for half the cost of an abortion if that's what he would have elected?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Blaming women for having kids with a deadbeat is like blaming women who end up in abusive relationships. Sometimes it is their fault, like how many women set out with the goal of changing the guy, but many times it doesn't start out that way.
I do wonder about the callers though. If their relationship with their ex was that rough, then why did they not go through the court for child support, to ensure it would be documented when they did pay child support or provide monetary assistance for the child?

What world are you living in? Sure they do. Women do this all the time. I see this at the hospital all the time. Parents fight and if the children live with the mother the disgruntled mother can influence their children to hate their father out of spite it happens. How do women know they are going to be deadbeat? There are signs:

1) Is he doing something with his life?
2) Does he want to have a family? If so at what point does he want a family?
3) Does he want a long term relationship?
4) Is he a responsible person?

I take it you don't have much experience in the area? Sometimes there are warning signs, but other times he is only working fast food because he is on rough times, he dropped out of high school because of family problems, and many of them do want a long term relationship. And many, many, many times you have to be with someone for several months, maybe longer, before it can be realized just how lame he is. If it was really that easy, few women would end up with deadbeats, and few women would end up in abusive relationships (again a situation in which there often are no warning signs).

I'm sorry that you went through that and that dude was a jerk. But I agree with Lyekis on the show in that there are tale tale signs. Now yeah, there are some signals you may not see but Lyekis' point was that in getting to know someone one must see whether the man you choose wants kids and at what point does he want kids. Some men will say "sure I want kids" but you gotta be careful cause some men say that to get in the good graces of a woman only to deceive her. However, as Lyekis said on the show which is quite crude but I agree is that if a woman doesn't want a deadbeat don't have sex.

This Lyekis individual is apparently oblivious to the fact that almost everyone comes preprogrammed with an instinctive biological drive to produce offspring. If a man says yes, he might be honest, or he might be lying. You can't go on that alone. If a man says he doesn't know, he may be honest and responsible, or he may just be trying to fake it. Or if he says no, you still have nothing real to go on.
Not too mention the segment sounded terribly biased and slanted.

This is true. A system has developed that targets dead-beat dads but it is also a system that gets taken advantage of just like welfare. As people take advantage it just ends up hurting the people who really need the services.

But like welfare fraud, it is a small minority that is far from being a majority. But I do agree the laws do need to be reformed to be more balanced, and limits put in place so a parent is never paying so much in support the other parent can comfortably live for the next 20+ years without working, and lower limits that do not cause the paying parent to struggle paying bills or acquiring food.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why can't he just pay for half the cost of an abortion if that's what he would have elected?

Because abortion is a medical procedure performed on the woman, and a woman, just like a man, has a right to bodily security.

 

[MoonWater]

It's no secret that in general custodial issues typically favor women; the research indicates "deadbeat moms/housewives" are far less likely to be prosecuted for delinquent child care and alimony payments, assuming the initial court even applied the law in such a way.

I believe that unless arranged through marriage (where all costs are theoretically shared matters) or consent, a man is not morally responsible for payments that exceed the cost of an abortion (technically half) regardless of what the law states. In the United States women have nearly complete control over the future of the infant and should shoulder the same responsibility if she elects to retain the child under her care. There are women who both purposely deceive partners about their birth control usage/fertility and alternate from pro-choice to pro-life upon conception. I have no sympathy for these women in their attempt to make their decisions absolute.

As aforementioned, family courts dis-proportionally favor women in both the U.S. and U.K - from my understanding, the situation is worse across the "pond." Shared custody should always be the first means of resolve, and any claims of abuse or indiscretion that appear at the end of a marriage should be viewed with the utmost scrutiny. There are truly deadbeat fathers, yes. There are also fathers who lost custody of their children (or only retained the dreadful "visitation rights" which aren't always enforced) and who refuse to pay child care because it's only being used by their former spouse to inflict pain. Courts really need to amend procedures to stop this abuse. The rate of depression after divorce for men is alarming compared to that of women. I believe the law is mostly at fault.

We can drag out all the anecdotes, but all I'm saying is that shared custody isn't pushed hard enough, and unless the man was married or consented to a child, he is only responsible for abortion costs. The current system is bloated, ineffective, and results in the only existing form of debt slavery (imprisonment) for delinquent parents.

So morally speaking you think only women should be required to bare any and all responsibilities of child rearing? That if a a father says "well I never wanted children to begin with" that should exonerate him of all responsibility to said children?

I would consider that morally reprehensible.

 

[MoonWater]

What world are you living in? Sure they do. Women do this all the time. I see this at the hospital all the time. Parents fight and if the children live with the mother the disgruntled mother can influence their children to hate their father out of spite it happens. How do women know they are going to be deadbeat? There are signs:

1) Is he doing something with his life?
2) Does he want to have a family? If so at what point does he want a family?
3) Does he want a long term relationship?
4) Is he a responsible person?

I don't know too many men who fit the above are deadbeats? Most responsible men who suddenly have an unexpected pregnancy don't bail. I know many men who tell a woman they don't want kids and have kids and bail. There are tale tale signs.

Oh I'm sure it happens but you're making it sound like it's a regular occurance and that it's the only reason any mother would have for demanding child support which is not the case. in most cases if someone is asking for child support it's because they need it not because they want to manipulate the other party.

And as for your "tell tale signs" hind sight is always 20/20. That which may be obvious after the fact is often not so obvious during. Women don't pick up deadbeats deliberately any more than men do, barring rare instances where they're just not looking for a serious relationship of course. This whole thing is not as black and white or simple as you are trying to make it and when it comes to the scenarios you are presenting we are only given one side of the story which will always be somewhat skewed. We can't automatically assume the women in these instances are being manipulative and vindictive as we don't have the whole picture.

 

[Mr. Skittles]

Oh I'm sure it happens but you're making it sound like it's a regular occurance and that it's the only reason any mother would have for demanding child support which is not the case. in most cases if someone is asking for child support it's because they need it not because they want to manipulate the other party.

And as for your "tell tale signs" hind sight is always 20/20. That which may be obvious after the fact is often not so obvious during. Women don't pick up deadbeats deliberately any more than men do, barring rare instances where they're just not looking for a serious relationship of course. This whole thing is not as black and white or simple as you are trying to make it and when it comes to the scenarios you are presenting we are only given one side of the story which will always be somewhat skewed. We can't automatically assume the women in these instances are being manipulative and vindictive as we don't have the whole picture.

It is a regular occurance! Which is why Deparment of Child Protective Services and an army of social workers are always at the hospital concerned about the e
welfare of the baby (mostly because either the mother is an inmate or has drugs in her system, or a history of a mental disorder), or if the biological father is absentee in the beginning, then shows up and finds out that the baby has the new boyfriend's name. LOL this is a regular occurence. Maybe its because I work at a hospital and see thousands and thousands of people a week.

Nobody said women pick deadbeats deliberately, Lyekis said "stop having sex with deadbeats." Sure there are a lot of men that are out there that don't give out signs but many women don't understand that there are guys that want to "hit it and quit it" so if a woman is foolish enough to fall for it and decides to not use contraceptives and if the man doesn't use it, then frankly she really cannot do too much complaining.

I tell these guys out here to use condoms and to never accept a condom from a woman and if you dont have any go to the store, and if you dont have the money borrow it. If you csnt borrow it dont have sex as hard as it is. I know too many cases (especially UCLA football players) where holes were poked in the condom but I digress on that fact

 

[McBell]

What it means is that up to that point, the child hasn't been getting the resources he's been entitled to because the father hasn't volunteered his share and the mother hasn't pushed the issue.

One wonders why the mothers in those situations have not actually followed through with their threats of taking them to court...?

i mean, if they are in such dire need of said resources for the child(ren), then why are they using the threat of going to court repeatedly to get their way instead of just going to court to get help with the resources that they so desperately need?

 

[Mr. Skittles]

Heh... I said that before. And you were the one who started this thread asking for input.

Your asking for specifics, I was paraphrasing part of the show. Your asking for specifics which require you to listen tk the show. Your asking a whole bunch of what ifs Jesus...

 

[Mr. Skittles]

Blaming women for having kids with a deadbeat is like blaming women who end up in abusive relationships. Sometimes it is their fault, like how many women set out with the goal of changing the guy, but many times it doesn't start out that way.
I do wonder about the callers though. If their relationship with their ex was that rough, then why did they not go through the court for child support, to ensure it would be documented when they did pay child support or provide monetary assistance for the child?



I take it you don't have much experience in the area? Sometimes there are warning signs, but other times he is only working fast food because he is on rough times, he dropped out of high school because of family problems, and many of them do want a long term relationship. And many, many, many times you have to be with someone for several months, maybe longer, before it can be realized just how lame he is. If it was really that easy, few women would end up with deadbeats, and few women would end up in abusive relationships (again a situation in which there often are no warning signs).


This Lyekis individual is apparently oblivious to the fact that almost everyone comes preprogrammed with an instinctive biological drive to produce offspring. If a man says yes, he might be honest, or he might be lying. You can't go on that alone. If a man says he doesn't know, he may be honest and responsible, or he may just be trying to fake it. Or if he says no, you still have nothing real to go on.
Not too mention the segment sounded terribly biased and slanted.


But like welfare fraud, it is a small minority that is far from being a majority. But I do agree the laws do need to be reformed to be more balanced, and limits put in place so a parent is never paying so much in support the other parent can comfortably live for the next 20+ years without working, and lower limits that do not cause the paying parent to struggle paying bills or acquiring food.

Just because we are preprogrammed doesnt mean we have sex. We have the ability to not have sex even if we are preprogrammed. I dont think lyekis disagrees.

 

[Falvlun]

Nobody said women pick deadbeats deliberately, Lyekis said "stop having sex with deadbeats." Sure there are a lot of men that are out there that don't give out signs but many women don't understand that there are guys that want to "hit it and quit it" so if a woman is foolish enough to fall for it and decides to not use contraceptives and if the man doesn't use it, then frankly she really cannot do too much complaining.

It's not about complaining, Skittles. Regardless of whether the woman "should have known better" or not, if you help make a baby, the responsibility for that kid is 50% yours. Our biology and society commonly allow men to skirt their fair share of that responsibility. It is simply a sign of this imbalance that the answer to men not putting in their dues isn't a call to men to step up to the plate, but to once again, place the responsibility back on the women. In fact, the stuff you shared about the call-ins disparages women who attempt to get the males to be responsible: Women are greedy, vindictive, irresponsible, stupid, and apparently completely unreasonable for expecting that the person who contributed 50% of the creating of that child should also fork over 50% of the support.

That is such a warped, and unfortunately and tragically, common way of looking at these things.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

One wonders why the mothers in those situations have not actually followed through with their threats of taking them to court...?

i mean, if they are in such dire need of said resources for the child(ren), then why are they using the threat of going to court repeatedly to get their way instead of just going to court to get help with the resources that they so desperately need?

That's part of what set off a red flag for me and made me think that there was more to the story than we weren't hearing.

But just because a father isn't paying child support doesn't necessarily mean that the woman or the child is in "desperate need". It's entirely possible that the mother manages to shoulder the whole burden herself, so while it doesn't necessarily result in the child being deprived, the father is still shirking his responsibility and creating a situation that's unfair for the mother.

 

[Draka]

Don't know what this may be worth, but in some situations it is easier and better to let a deadbeat dad off the hook. I did and it threw the state of Iowa for a loop. When I divorced in California my ex was so abusive and there were so many issues and he wasn't even attempting to pay child support anyway that the courts allowed (since we both agreed to it) him to voluntarily sign away his parental rights. He never had to worry about paying child support and he never had any rights to visitation (much to my relief). When I moved to Iowa there was quite an issue for a while with the State wanting to go after child support on my behalf and I had to jump through some hoops trying to get them not to and proving that she had no legal father. Sometimes it really is better to let sleeping dogs lie.

 

[Mathematician]

So morally speaking you think only women should be required to bare any and all responsibilities of child rearing? That if a a father says "well I never wanted children to begin with" that should exonerate him of all responsibility to said children?

I would consider that morally reprehensible.

If she elects to keep the baby, it's her choice and her responsibility. Why should a man have to pay for something the woman chose?

If a man wasn't married or didn't consent beforehand, I applaud "deadbeat dads" who offer to help with only the abortion costs. If she wants to keep the baby, that's her decision. Freedom requires responsibility.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If she elects to keep the baby, it's her choice and her responsibility. Why should a man have to pay for something the woman chose?

Choices of both the man and the woman factored into the consequences. Why would it be more reasonable to say "she chose not to get an abortion - she should pay all the costs for the child" than it is to say "he chose not to get a vasectomy - he should pay all the costs for the child"?

Or is imposing a medical procedure on someone only okay when it's being done to a woman?

 

[Mathematician]

Because abortion is a medical procedure performed on the woman, and a woman, just like a man, has a right to bodily security.

Irrelevant. Giving birth is also medical procedure. She has three options: abortion, adoption, or retention. The father is, ethically, only responsible for covering half of the least expensive of the options.

Choices of both the man and the woman factored into the consequences. Why would it be more reasonable to say "she chose not to get an abortion - she should pay all the costs for the child" than it is to say "he chose not to get a vasectomy - he should pay all the costs for the child"?

Not even comparable. Pregnancy prevention is available for both sexes. The decision to proceed with pregnancy is only available for one sex.

Women can't have their cake and eat it too. Forcing financial and emotional burdens on a man who never willingly agreed to parenthood is just despicable. Pregnancy is the 'fault' of both partners, always, but the choice to continue is the fault of one.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Irrelevant. Giving birth is also medical procedure.

But they're different procedures with different effects and risks. Which effects and risks are acceptable and which ones aren't is a personal decision of the woman.

She has three options: abortion, adoption, or retention. The father is, ethically, only responsible for covering half of the least expensive of the options.

I think you have a rather warped view of ethics. The father is instrumental in - and therefore jointly responsible for - the child. The fact that abortion exists as an option is not some magic "get out of jail free" card for fatherly responsibility.