• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Darwin's Pain

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Continuation of my earlier reply.
Darwin faced big headwinds in trying to establish that natural selection is the main process for evolutionary change. In this quote he is debunking the charge that he said it was the exclusive mode. Yet, he always considered it the primary mode. This was not accepted by other biologists till about 1910 when elucidation of Mendelian genetics proved him right.

See link below,
Darwin's Influence on Modern Thought

For 80 years after 1859, bitter controversy raged as to which of four competing evolutionary theories was valid. “Transmutation” was the establishment of a new species or new type through a single mutation, or saltation. “Orthogenesis” held that intrinsic teleological tendencies led to transformation. Lamarckian evolution relied on the inheritance of acquired characteristics. And now there was Darwin’s variational evolution, through natural selection. Darwin’s theory clearly emerged as the victor during the evolutionary synthesis of the 1940s, when the new discoveries in genetics were married with taxonomic observations concerning systematics, the classification of organisms by their relationships. Darwinism is now almost unanimously accepted by knowledgeable evolutionists. In addition, it has become the basic component of the new philosophy of biology.

All current research is adding extra dimensions to the bedrock of Darwin's theory of variational evolution through natural selection.

In the Darwin’s own statement that is in OP, he says that natural selection was the primary process but not the only one. But TOE does not also propose that sentience arose naturally.

I will read the link at leisure.
 
Last edited:

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
In the Darwin’s own statement that is in OP, he says that natural selection was the primary prices but not the only one. But TOE does not also propose that sentience arose naturally.

I will read the link at leisure.
I don't understand the context from where u are coming from. What has TOE to do with consciousness?
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member

Thank you. Excellent links. And truly significant. It remains to be seen whether it turns out a fluke or not.

In my understanding science leads the revolutions — paradigm changes, expanding frontiers of understanding. But effects come a long time later due to mental inertia.
 
Last edited:

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Just out of curiosity, did he ever mentioned what other means of modification might have been involved?

Hard to say. I'm not sure Darwin was aware of gene drift back in his day, but he was aware of -- and he actually wrote about in at least one of his books -- sexual selection, which should not be confused with natural selection.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I am pointing to ‘Origin of life’ opposed to ‘Origin of species’.
That has nothing to do with evolution through natural selection or with anything in evolutionary biology. It's done by separate scientific field of biochemistry.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I really do not know. I expect fellow posters to throw some light.

I can provide one example however. At K-T boundary big life forms were wiped away. If that event had not happened what would be the composition of living beings today? So, the point is that do we know all factors with 100% certainty?

In what way is a meteor strike a kind or category of selection mechanism on the same order as natural selection, sexual selection, genetic drift, etc/
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
In what way is a meteor strike a kind or category of selection mechanism on the same order as natural selection, sexual selection, genetic drift, etc/

That is my question, but I think such a natural disaster would have led to large drift.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Why Darwin lamented? Imagine that bearded man lamenting "No, No, No", while scratching his beard. What would Darwin say today about Neo Darwinism? OTOH, what would Dawkins, Dennett, Churchland, Maynard et al say to Darwin?

Can we be light hearted?

Who knows. Maybe he was only attempting (apparently in vain) to appease the proto-Creationists of his day. Maybe he never stopped being a proto-creationist himself.

As for the later questions, how much of an understanding of the current state of biology are we to allow Darwin? It all comes down to that.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
It is selection. The strike altered the weather conditions, and those animals who could survive them were selected for, others went extinct.

Stretch the boundaries enough and even mutation is natural selection. That's not what is meant though.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Who knows. Maybe he was only attempting (apparently in vain) to appease the proto-Creationists of his day. Maybe he never stopped being a proto-creationist himself.

As for the later questions, how much of an understanding of the current state of biology are we to allow Darwin? It all comes down to that.

His belief in God at the time he wrote his seminal works is pretty well established, no matter the movement later.

In a simple sense, he seemed to belief in a very basic form of creationism then guided by evolutionary processes, moreso than God.

Hard to tell for sure, but there'd be plenty of scientists involved in evolutionary studies to this day with that type of belief, I would think.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Stretch the boundaries enough and even mutation is natural selection. That's not what is meant though.
Nah. Natural selection occurs due changing natural conditions. Short term events like volcanism, epidemics and meteor strikes certainly count as well.
 
Top