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Damned if You Do, Damned if You Don't

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Recently, the grand mufti of Al-Azhar, the highest and most authoritative religious institution in Egypt, has issued a fatwa stating that he cannot declare Daesh non-Muslims. He has received a flurry of criticism and colorful comments due to his refusal to state that Daesh are outside the fold of Islam.

What came to mind amid reading and hearing this torrent of criticism, however, was a mixture of confusion and sympathy—yes, you read that right: sympathy. The declaration of Daesh as non-Muslims by some Muslims has led to accusations of employing the no true Scotsman fallacy in favor of Islam. The refusal to declare Daesh non-Muslims by the grand mufti of Al-Azhar has led to criticism of Islamic scholars on the grounds that they refuse to disavow extremism and extremists.

If I were a Muslim, I would be truly bewildered at this status quo. On the one hand, it seems tempting to renounce Daesh and those like them and label them non-Muslims. On the other hand, it is hard to dismiss the religious affiliation of these groups—after all, they and a lot of the supporters of terrorist organizations are self-identified Muslims who believe in the Shahada (the Islamic testimony of faith), pray, fast, and uphold the Qur'an as an all-encompassing constitution and code of conduct. The true dilemma here lies in whether or not the average, peaceful Muslim can call Daesh non-Muslims. Personally, I think recognizing them as Muslims while renouncing their actions is the most reasonable course of action, although this is only from my perspective as a non-believer. It seems inconsistent to me to dismiss them as non-Muslims and effectively deny that there are any problems with mainstream Islam that can lead to the rise of terrorist, violent organizations like Daesh and Al-Qaeda.

However, despite my personal stance on this issue, I also sympathize with the sentiments of the Muslims who call Daesh non-Muslims, at least to an extent. To those Muslims, Islam represents a paragon of peace, coexistence, and kindness. Within this context, any violent, hateful, or inhumane person would logically be outside the realm of Islam. One could argue that it is necessary to recognize the likes of Daesh and Al-Qaeda as Muslims to begin addressing the problems befalling mainstream Islam, but there is little question that one would be hard-pressed to argue that labeling them non-Muslims necessarily reflects support for extremism, even tacit support.

I do not envy the average Muslim who has to grapple with this dilemma. In either case, he or she will be criticized either as being dismissive of problems with mainstream Islam or as being unwilling to renounce extremists and extremism. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
The idea that some random dude can tell me what is true, or not true, about the world seems absolutely ridiculous.

I don't care who you are. You were pooped out of your mother's coo-coo just like everyone else. You played with toys and had favorite books or TV shows just like everyone else. You take a daily **** and pee into some sort of hole in the ground just like everyone else. You experiemnted with touching your genitals during and after puberty just like everyone else. The fact that you decided to dedicate your life to hard-nosed dogmas after you became an adult doesn't change any of that.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
I think in Muslim terms Daesh would qualify as apostates, in that they consistently do just the opposite of what the Muslim religion stands for and the Quran teaches.

On the Christian side I think the Westboro Baptist church and even Donald Trump would qualify as apostates for much the same reasons, the consistently teach just the opposite of what Christianity and the Bible stand for.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Well that sound like it's just honesty from the Grand Mufti. Daesh are what they are and they should be condemned. There are bad guys in every group.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
One thing I've learned about religions & believers....
(My fundie friend/assistant tells me that very few Xians are true Xians.)
Everyone is an apostate in the eyes of some segment of their faith.
The more complicated the scripture & subsequent interpretations, the more room for balkanization.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
Recently, the grand mufti of Al-Azhar, the highest and most authoritative religious institution in Egypt, has issued a fatwa stating that he cannot declare Daesh non-Muslims. He has received a flurry of criticism and colorful comments due to his refusal to state that Daesh are outside the fold of Islam.

What came to mind amid reading and hearing this torrent of criticism, however, was a mixture of confusion and sympathy—yes, you read that right: sympathy. The declaration of Daesh as non-Muslims by some Muslims has led to accusations of employing the no true Scotsman fallacy in favor of Islam. The refusal to declare Daesh non-Muslims by the grand mufti of Al-Azhar has led to criticism of Islamic scholars on the grounds that they refuse to disavow extremism and extremists.

If I were a Muslim, I would be truly bewildered at this status quo. On the one hand, it seems tempting to renounce Daesh and those like them and label them non-Muslims. On the other hand, it is hard to dismiss the religious affiliation of these groups—after all, they and a lot of the supporters of terrorist organizations are self-identified Muslims who believe in the Shahada (the Islamic testimony of faith), pray, fast, and uphold the Qur'an as an all-encompassing constitution and code of conduct. The true dilemma here lies in whether or not the average, peaceful Muslim can call Daesh non-Muslims. Personally, I think recognizing them as Muslims while renouncing their actions is the most reasonable course of action, although this is only from my perspective as a non-believer. It seems inconsistent to me to dismiss them as non-Muslims and effectively deny that there are any problems with mainstream Islam that can lead to the rise of terrorist, violent organizations like Daesh and Al-Qaeda.

However, despite my personal stance on this issue, I also sympathize with the sentiments of the Muslims who call Daesh non-Muslims, at least to an extent. To those Muslims, Islam represents a paragon of peace, coexistence, and kindness. Within this context, any violent, hateful, or inhumane person would logically be outside the realm of Islam. One could argue that it is necessary to recognize the likes of Daesh and Al-Qaeda as Muslims to begin addressing the problems befalling mainstream Islam, but there is little question that one would be hard-pressed to argue that labeling them non-Muslims necessarily reflects support for extremism, even tacit support.

I do not envy the average Muslim who has to grapple with this dilemma. In either case, he or she will be criticized either as being dismissive of problems with mainstream Islam or as being unwilling to renounce extremists and extremism. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
they are sinners Muslims ,they break many Islamic laws , that does not mean that we should fighting (elimanting ) them and fighting their ideology by serious stand.

you point is make : if a Muslim make a crime so he become automaticly non-Muslims ?

I believe if we said they are not Muslims so that lead us to same error that they drop in (takfirism) .

God knows best
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
they are sinners Muslims ,they break many Islamic laws , that does not mean that we should fighting (elimanting ) them and fighting their ideology by serious stand.

you point is make : if a Muslim make a crime so he become automaticly non-Muslims ?

I believe if we said they are not Muslims so that lead us to same error that they drop in (takfirism) .

God knows best
So, you think the guys in ISIS and just making some bad choices, but that ultimately they are Muslims following their faith? Is that what you believe?
You don't think there should be any movement against them, like fighting them head-on and weakening their infrastructures so they can't cause as much global pain as they are causing?
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
they are sinners Muslims ,they break many Islamic laws , that does not mean that we should fighting (elimanting ) them and fighting their ideology by serious stand.

you point is make : if a Muslim make a crime so he become automaticly non-Muslims ?

I believe if we said they are not Muslims so that lead us to same error that they drop in (takfirism) .

God knows best

No, my point is that the average Muslim would be placed in a dilemma if they were to contemplate whether or not to call Daesh non-Muslims. In either case, he or she will face heavy criticism.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
So, you think the guys in ISIS and just making some bad choices, but that ultimately they are Muslims following their faith? Is that what you believe?
You don't think there should be any movement against them, like fighting them head-on and weakening their infrastructures so they can't cause as much global pain as they are causing?
they following extrem scholars which not commun scholars

there are movements by two ways by Muslims ,1- fighting them on the ground 2- by fighting their ideology
 

Pastek

Sunni muslim
they are sinners Muslims ,they break many Islamic laws , that does not mean that we should fighting (elimanting ) them and fighting their ideology by serious stand.

you point is make : if a Muslim make a crime so he become automaticly non-Muslims ?

I believe if we said they are not Muslims so that lead us to same error that they drop in (takfirism) .

This is a good question.

Is Hitler considerated as a bad christian or not christian at all by christians ?

Godobeyer i didn't understand, you said we should fight them or we shouldn't ?
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
No, my point is that the average Muslim would be placed in a dilemma if they were to contemplate whether or not to call Daesh non-Muslims. In either case, he or she will face heavy criticism.
sorry i did not get your point ,cause of my English level
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I think in Muslim terms Daesh would qualify as apostates, in that they consistently do just the opposite of what the Muslim religion stands for and the Quran teaches.

On the Christian side I think the Westboro Baptist church and even Donald Trump would qualify as apostates for much the same reasons, the consistently teach just the opposite of what Christianity and the Bible stand for.

It may seem tempting to believe that anyone who does X is not really a follower of religion Y, but things are rarely this simple. They are complicated to the point where even some Islamic scholars are refusing to call Daesh "apostates."
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
This is a good question.

Is Hitler considerated as a bad christian or not christian at all by christians ?

Godobeyer i didn't understand, you said we should fight them or we shouldn't ?
We should fight them and their ideology

of couse Hitler was bad Christian.
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
they following extrem scholars which not commun scholars

there are movements by two ways by Muslims ,1- fighting them on the ground 2- by fighting their ideology
But they are still openly murdering hundreds of people, and bragging about it on every media outlet that they can. They are forcing their ideologies on people who don't want it. Is that acceptable behavior to you?

Do you believe that simply fighting their ideology is enough to solve the problem?
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
Here is an article about it in Arabic: http://www.youm7.com/story/2014/12/11/الأزهر_يرفض_تكفير_داعش_ويؤكد__لا_تكفير_لمؤمن_مهما_بلغت_ذنوبه/1985973#.VmhJW_l96Uk

The gist is that the mufti believes that anyone who believes that "there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger" is a Muslim and cannot be declared otherwise no matter how grave their sins were.
of course they are sinners and criminals , I think Alazhar is avoid to concept of "Takfirism" ,which they "Daesh" has already accuse the people by it .
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
But they are still openly murdering hundreds of people, and bragging about it on every media outlet that they can. They are forcing their ideologies on people who don't want it. Is that acceptable behavior to you?

Do you believe that simply fighting their ideology is enough to solve the problem?
of course fighting their ideology is solve the problem of extrem in Islam

there are many scholars fighting their ideology :

check this subtitle video please :

ISIS and the persecution of Christians in Iraq.
 
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