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Crusifixion or Crusifiction?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Islam, Dec 21, 2006.

  1. Islam

    Islam Member

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    [​IMG]WHAT WAS THE SIGN OF JONAH?
    "CHRIST" NOT A NAME


    Over a thousand million Christians today blindly accept that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ. They produce "a thousand and one" prophecies from the Jewish Bible (the Old Testament) to prove their claim that Jesus was the Messiah promised to the Jews. Let us hold the thousand" prophecies in abeyance for a moment and examine the only unequivocal claim made by Jesus in the Gospels and examine whether he fulfilled his promise to the Jews.
    We must admit that the word CHRIST is not a name. It is a title. It is a translation of the Hebrew word Messiah, meaning "anointed." The Greek word for "anointed" is Christos from which we get the word Christ.
    Priests and kings were "anointed" when being consecrated to their office. The Holy Bible confers this title even on a heathen king CYRUS (Isaiah 45:1).
    We are reminded in the Gospel of St.Luke that "WHEN EIGHT DAYS WERE ACCOMPLISHED FOR THE CIRCUMCISING OF THE CHILD, HIS NAME WAS CALLED JESUS, WHICH WAS SO NAMED OF THE ANGEL BEFORE HE WAS CONCEIVED IN THE WOMB." (Luke 2:21). The name that was given to Mary for her yet unborn son was JESUS and NOT Christ. It was only after his baptism at the hands of John the Baptist that he, Jesus, claimed to be the Christ. The Jews were not the ones to accept his claim on its face value. They wanted proof!
    MIRACLE AS PROOF
    Matthew records that the learned men among the Jews - the Scribes and Pharisees - came to Jesus and asked, "MASTER, WE WOULD SEE A SIGN FROM THEE". (Matthew 12:38). What they really wanted was some "magic trick," some "sleight of hand" like producing a rabbit out of a hat or walking on the water or flying in the air or trodding on burning coal. This is the type of "sign" or MIRACLE they were looking for. The Jews mistook him for a sorcerer, a wizard, a charlatan.
    NO "SIGN" BUT ONE
    With righteous indignation Jesus replies: "AN EVIL AND ADULTEROUS GENERATION SEEKETH AFTER A SIGN; AND THERE SHALL NO SIGN (no miracle) BE GIVEN TO IT, BUT THE SIGN (miracle) OF THE PROPHET JONAS: FOR AS JONAS WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE WHALE'S BELLY; SO SHALL THE SON OF MAN BE THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH." Matthew 12:39-40). Jesus says, "NO SIGN." He does not refer the Jews to blind Bartimeus whose sight he had restored. He does not speak about the "woman with issues" who was healed by merely touching him; or about the 2000 pigs he had destroyed to heal "a man possessed;" or the 5000 and the 3000 people he had fed and satiated with a few pieces of fish and a few pieces of bread. "No sign," says Jesus, BUT ONE! - "THE SIGN OF THE PROPHET JONAS!" He is putting all his "eggs" in one basket. His claim to being the Messiah (Christ) stands or falls the ONLY "sign" he was prepared to give.
    Did Jesus fulfill the only sign he gave? Christendom answers with a unanimous Y-E-S! without heeding the Biblical advice - 'not to take things for granted.' - but "PROVE ALL THINGS!" (1 Thessalonians 5:21)
    JONAH FLEES HIS CALL
    What was the "sign" (miracle) of Jonah? We have to go to the "Book of Jonah" in the Old Testament to find out. God commanded Jonah to go to Nineveh and warn the Ninevites to repent from their "evil ways, and from the violence that is in their hands." (Jonah 3:8) But Jonah was loath to go as a warner unto the Ninevites, so he goes to Joppa instead of Ninevah, and takes a boat to run away from the Lord's command.
    While at sea, there was a terrible tempest. According to the superstition of the mariners, a person fleeing from his Master's command creates such a turmoil at sea. They began to enquire among themselves and said, "COME, AND LET US CAST LOTS, (like the tossing of a coin, "head" or "tail") THAT WE MAY KNOW FOR WHOSE CAUSE THIS EVIL IS UPON US. SO THEY CAST LOTS, AND THE LOT FELL UPON JONAH." (Jonah 1:7). Though here was a temporary lapse on the part of Jonah in fulfilling his mission, he manfully and most outrageously volunteers: "AND HE SAID UNTO THEM TAKE ME UP, AND CAST ME FORTH INTO THE SEA; SO SHALL THE SEA BE CALM UNTO YOU: FOR I KNOW THAT FOR MY SAKE THIS GREAT TEMPEST IS UPON YOU." (Jonah 1:12)
    DEAD OR ALIVE?
    Since Jonah was selflessly offering himself as a "vicarious" sacrifice there was no need for strangling him before throwing him into the sea, no need to spear him or break his arm or limb. In his own words: "TAKE ME UP AND CAST ME FORTH." The question now arises, that when the shipmaster and the crew threw him overboard, was Jonah dead or alive? Any Christian child who has attended Sunday School will give an immediate reply: "ALIVE!" The storm subsides. Was this perhaps a coincidence? A fish swallows Jonah. Was he dead or alive when swallowed? The answer again is "ALIVE" Was he dead or alive when "JONAH PRAYED UNTO THE LORD HIS GOD OUT OF THE FISH'S BELLY?" (Jonah 2:1)
    Surely dead men don't cry and don't pray! The answer again is "ALIVE" For three days and three nights the fish takes him around the ocean: dead or alive? "ALIVE!" is the answer. On the third day it vomits him on the seashore: dead or alive? A-L-I-V-E, of course! What had Jesus prophesied about himself? He said: "AS JONAH WAS ..... SO SHALL THE SON OF MAN BE" LIKE JONAH. And how was Jonah? Was he dead or alive for three days and three nights? Alive! ALIVE! ALIVE! is the unanimous answer from the Jew, the Christian and the Muslim!
    UNLIKE JONAH
    If Jonah was alive for three days and three nights, then Jesus also ought to have been alive in the tomb as he himself had foretold! But Christianity hangs on the flimsy thread of the death" of Jesus for its salvation. So it has to answer that Jesus was DEAD for three days and three nights. The contradiction between his utterance and its fulfilment is obvious. Jonah ALIVE, Jesus DEAD! Very UNLIKE Jonah! Jesus had said "LIKE Jonah" not UNLIKE Jonah. If this is true then according to his own test Jesus is not the TRUE Messiah of the Jews. If the Gospel record is genuine then how can we blame the Jews for rejecting "CHRIST".
    THREE AND THREE = 72 HOURS?
    The Doctor of Divinity and the Professor of Theology replies that in Matthew 12:40 under discussion, the emphasis is on the TIME factor - "as Jonas was THREE days and THREE nights in the belly of the whale, so shall the son of man be THREE days and THREE nights in the heart of the earth." "Please note," says the learned theologian, "that the word "THREE" is repeated F-O-U-R times in this verse to prove that Jesus was going to fulfil the prophecy as regards the length of time he was going to remain in the tomb, and NOT 'As Jonas was' in relation to his being alive or dead. If it is the time factor that Jesus was stressing then let us ask whether he fulfilled that aspect of his promise to the Jews as well. The Christian dogmatist answers: "OF COURSE!"
    PUBLIC HOLIDAY
    The question arises: when was Christ crucified? The whole Christian world answers: "FRIDAY!" Is this the reason we celebrate "Good Friday" - as a Public Holiday in every Christian nation from America to Zambia, from Abyssinia to Zaire at Easter? What makes Good Friday" so good? "it is the death of Christ on the Cross on this day to wash off our sins," says the Christians. So he was killed on the cross on a Friday, 19xx years ago? "YES!" says the Christians. From the Gospel records we gather that the Jews were in a hurry to eliminate Jesus. Hence the midnight trial, and then dispatching him off to Pilate in the morning; from Pilate to Herod and then back again to Pilate. The vested interests were afraid of the general public. Jesus was their hero. He had been their benefactor. His enemies had to do away with him quickly, and succeeded in doing so. However, as much as they were in a hurry to hang him on the cross, they were in equal hurry to bring him down from the cross before sunset on Friday because of the Sabbath. The Sabbath starts at about 6 p.m. on Friday and the Jews were warned in Deuteronomy 21:23 that the victim of crucifixion was an "accursed of God" and was not to be permitted to remain hanging on the Sabbath day, "that thy land be not defiled which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance."
    To satisfy the religious scruples of the Scribes and Pharisees the "secret disciples" of Jesus took down the body from the cross. They gave the body the Jewish burial-bath, plastered it with "one hundred pounds weight of aaloes and myrrh" (John 19:39), then placed the shrouded body into the sepulcher before night-fall.
    .
    Source
     
  2. Islam

    Islam Member

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    WHY "SUPPOSED"?
    There are numerous differences between the various sects and denominations of Christianity, but on the above they are unanimous. Jesus is SUPPOSED to be in the tomb on the night of Friday. He is still SUPPOSED to be in the tomb on the day of Saturday. He is still SUPPOSED to be in the tomb on the night of Saturday. Christians agree whole-heartedly with this. It will be noted that I have repeated the word 'SUPPOSED' three times. The reason is that the Gospels are silent as to when exactly Jesus came out of the tomb. He could have been taken away on Friday night by his "secret disciples" to a more congenial and restful place, but I have no right to assume about what the Gospel writers are silent. I have, therefore, repeated the word 'SUPPOSED' three times.
    In the final analysis, let us see whether Jesus was THREE days and THREE nights in the tomb:-
    EASTER WEEK
    IN THE SEPULCHER
    DAYS
    NIGHTS
    FRIDAY - placed in tomb just before sunset
    - nil -
    One night
    SATURDAY - supposed to be in tomb
    One day
    One night
    SUNDAY - missing before sunrise
    - nil -
    - nil -
    TOTAL
    One Day
    Two Nights

    You will no doubt note that the GRAND TOTAL is ONE day and TWO nights, and NOT three days and three nights. According to the Christian Scriptures Jesus had failed a SECOND time. FIRST he was unlike Jonah, who was ALIVE in the belly of the fish, which is the exact opposite of what the Christians claim had happened to their master Jesus, who was DEAD for the same period of time as Jonah was - ALIVE.
    SECONDLY, we discover that he also failed to fulfill the TIME FACTOR as well. The greatest mathematician in Christendom will fail to obtain the desired result - THREE days and THREE nights. We must not forget that the Gospels are explicit in telling us that it was "before sunrise" on Sunday morning (the FIRST day of the week), that Mary Magdalene went to the tomb of Jesus and found it empty.
    "GOOD" WEDNESDAY
    The Armstrong family has debunked the whole Christian world. They seem to know their arithmetic! Mr Robert Fahey of the "Plain Truth" magazine, delivered a lecture recently at the "Holiday Inn,' Durban, where I was present. Mr Fahey attempted to prove to his Christian audience that Jesus Christ was crucified on a Wednesday and not on Friday, as is supposed by Orthodox Christianity for the past two thousand years. According to him if one counts backwards from Sunday morning deducting 3 DAYS and 3 NIGHTS, one ought to get WEDNESDAY as the answer.
    I congratulated Mr Fahey for his ingenuity. I asked him, how was it possible for the past two thousand years the whole Christian world celebrated GOOD FRIDAY instead of GOOD WEDNESDAY. Thus the 1,200,000,000 Christians of the world today are ignorant of the correct day of the so called crucifixion! It means that even the Roman Catholic Church – which claims an unbroken chain of Popes from Peter to this day - according to Mr Fahey are mislead.
    GOD OR THE DEVIL?
    The question arises, who deceived the millions of Christians for the past TWO THOUSAND years. GOD or the DEVIL? Mr Fahey categorically answered: "THE DEVIL!" "If the devil," I said, "can succeed in confusing the Christians in the most elementary things of their Faith, whether to celebrate a Good Friday or a Good Wednesday, then how much easier for him to mislead Christians in other things concerning God?" Mr Fahey blushed and walked away.
    If this is the belief of the trend-setters of the Christian Faith in the world today, may we not then ask: is this not the mightiest hoax in history?

    For more in depth proof, read:
    http://www.jamaat.net/crux/crucifixion.html
     
  3. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Why do you insist on tearing down that which we hold sacred and dear? We don't presume to make posts wherein we brand Muhammed a ficitional character, nor do we assert that the Koran an unreliable sham.

    You folks get all bent out of shape and make a world-wide stink when a journalist comes up with a political cartoon of Muhammed, yet you seem to feel entitled to smear our scriptures and our Messiah publicly on this forum. Where does that entitlement come from? Why the double standard? I would caution you to have a little respect.
     
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  4. Islam

    Islam Member

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    Because your Messiah is also our Messiah. Just like you have the right to debate with the Jew over Moses. We have the right to debate with u over Jesus Christ.
     
  5. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    You cannot debate how we both see Jesus Christ; you see him as a prophet; we see him as God. There is no point in continually trying to prove to us that yours is the better way.................
     
  6. jacquie4000

    jacquie4000 Well-Known Member

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    Christians may debate different things in the bible...and have different denominations...But guess what so does your faith...Not everything in your religion is on the straight and narrow either.
    http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/islam/blfaq_islam_sects.htm
    I have respect for all people and what they chose to follow. But debate can be in anything.
     
  7. jacquie4000

    jacquie4000 Well-Known Member

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    The Muslim religion has different sects, same as the Christian Religion. Infact if you look into it the sects in the Muslim religion are growing.
     
  8. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Honest debate is a far cry from a smear campaign. :tribal2:
     
  9. doppelganger

    doppelganger Through the Looking Glass

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    Doesn't make any difference what day it occurred on or whether it even happened. The meaning it signifies is what matters to me.
     
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  10. Booko

    Booko Deviled Hen

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    *** MOD POST ***

    Just a friendly reminder, but this is the Biblical Debates section, so please try to stay on topic.

    If it's not Biblical, it doesn't belong here. But new threads can be started in other parts of RF!

    Thanks in advance for your cooperation,
    Sharon
     
  11. rocka21

    rocka21 Brother Rock

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    do you think Sunday is the first day of the week? will a JW please come in here and tell him about the Sabbath?

    wednesday, friday, sunday,.......... LOL. The calendar today has changed over the years.

    october - octo- means eight, but it is the tenth month. why? it was changed.

    do you think we REALLY believe jesus was born on DEC. 25th. LOL!!

    we celebrate what happened! DEATH, BIRTH, RESSURECTION. Not the sundays, mondays, dec. 25th, etc. etc.
     
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  12. FerventGodSeeker

    FerventGodSeeker Believer

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  13. FerventGodSeeker

    FerventGodSeeker Believer

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    Except we don't call Moses a failure, a hoax, a liar, etc.
     
  14. SB Habakuk

    SB Habakuk Active Member

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    I will tolerate this post because it shows the double thread of truth
    Now Christ is also intertwined with regional messiahs- heathen kings even-
    But as I said there is two churches-
    The One- that teaches Christ death burial and Cruxifiction
    The Other -that knows of He did not die
     
  15. SB Habakuk

    SB Habakuk Active Member

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    As for all of you the issue of the three days - this one calls for Wisdom
    The Jewish eve is befor the morn
    So the Evening before the Sabbath- would be- Thursday Evening
    as Friday Evening is The Evening of the Sabbath

    Secondly the Jewish Sabbath here could also be the Jewish Pashca- celebrated on Thursday or Wednesday
     
  16. SB Habakuk

    SB Habakuk Active Member

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    I am not opposed- but supportive- of thought- for if there was no thought none of This would be.
    Thought cannot be discredited- it will lead where it must- Sects of religion have different interpretations of the same thing- are they wrong or right
     
  17. FerventGodSeeker

    FerventGodSeeker Believer

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    That's not at issue here. The thread is about specific verses referring to the death of Christ and prophecies concerning it...Booko was trying to keep it on track with a discussion of the specific verses...and now we're derailing even farther because you don't want the Mods to do their jobs:rolleyes:
     
  18. Bick

    Bick Member

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    To the one calling himself "Islam". You have made some good points with which I concur, but others I must disagree with.

    First, at the time Jesus says "no sign will be given except the sign of the prophet Jonah", he had been preaching for some time, healing all who came to him, doing signs and wonders, and always the Scribes and Pharisees were seeing it. So now, after all this, they ask to "see a sign" from him (more in sarcasm, in my opinion).

    Next, it is unfortunate that the majority of Christians believe, or, are taught, that Jonah was somehow alive all the while in the prepared fish.
    That is not what I believe when reading carefully the account in Jonah.

    E.G., First, we must realize that Jonah wrote this account after he was spewed out of the fish, and after he went to Ninevah. OK? Reading from the RSV:

    Jonah 2:1ff "Then Jonah prayed to the Lord from the belly of the fish, saying, I called to the Lord out of my distress, and he answered me; Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, and you heard my voice."
    Let's stop her for a moment: Jonah remembers his prayer he made before he went to Sheol (the grave in the fish).
    Verse 2:5ff "The waters closed in over me; the deep surrounded me; weeds were wrapped around my head at the roots of the mountains." "..yet you brought up my life from the pit, O Lord my God."

    Again: Jonah died and was in the fish three days and nights, until he was spewed out upon the land.
    Likewise, Christ Jesus died on the cruel cross, was entombed, and after three days and nights he arose!

    I agree, that it is a tradition foisted upon Christendom that Jesus was crucified on a Friday. Because, when raised on a Sunday, there wasn't enough time for "three days and three nights."

    Personally, I believe he was crucified on Wednesday, Nisan 14th, the "day of preparation", before Passover, the day of the "HIgh Sabbath" (see Matt.27:62; Mark 15:42; Luke 23:54; and John 19:31.42). He was taken down from the cross, his body wrapped, and he was laid in a new tomb of Joseph of Arimathea, by 6:00 pm, the start of the Jewish High Sabbath (not the Saturday sabbath).

    THEREFORE: Jesus was in the tomb each night before each Thursday, Friday and Saturday; three nights and three days, just as Jonah was! After sundown (6 pm) Saturday, in Jewish reckoning, it is Sunday. And we read that Mary Magadalene came to the tomb while it was still dark, and found the Lord already risen and the stone rolled away.

    This all makes sense, for the night before Sunday is Jewish Sunday, and Jesus was already risen from the dead, after being in the tomb a full three nights and days!

    Mr. Islam, you may have a number of Christian books; I suggest you purchase a Companion Bible by Dr. Bullinger. It has an appendix that is like a library. Study this Bible, with its appendix, and I believe your questions will, hopefully, be answered.

    Bick
     
  19. Bick

    Bick Member

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    Mr Islam: I would like to ask you a question about the Islamic religion.

    Why is it more Muslims are killed by other Muslims than by any others?

    Why, from what I read, are the male youths taught to kill their brother Muslims?

    Bick
     
  20. Islam

    Islam Member

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    That you're too afraid to realize that your responsible for your actions? That you arent responsible for what your father did? If your father steals can we send you to prison? You say no thats not fair. I say exactly than how can God do that to you. Islam rejects the Original sin. Because Adam did one mistake every human being is destined to hell because they ate the forbiden fruit so God Almightyi is going to put everybody to hell? Even the innocent children, the babies, are born sinful because of that? Can you imagine! This is not a just law. At some point, even the Bible, your Bible, rejects the original sin and says:

    Ezekiel 18:20
    The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

    This is what Islam believes. That Adam payed for his mistake and God immediately forgave him. What God isnt merciful? Yes He is. He created us, humans, and He knew that we will sin because look we are no angels. If he wanted us to be angels he would have made us into angels. He has His angels. He has written upon himself that He is Mercifull and that He forgives us. So that when we sin we turn to Him, and repent to Him, therefoe remembering Him and in a form, worship Him. He created us knowing we will sin. He didnt create us then as the Bible says "repented"! Can you imagine! God repenting! To who?! God repenting to God?! If you already know you are forgiven and someone has been slaughtered for your own sins, will you turn to God? Maybe you will, not all humans will because as humans we are greedy people and take advantage of the good. We will sin more etc. But if you are responsible for your own actions, you will have a stronger relationship with God.

    And we do ? Where have you been thumbsucking this from? Islam reveres Moses even more than Judaism and Christianity itself!

    What the Bible says:

    Deuteronomy 32:48-51
    48 And the LORD spake unto Moses that selfsame day, saying...
    51 Because ye trespassed against me among the children of Israel at the waters of MeribahKadesh, in the wilderness of Zin; because ye sanctified me not in the midst of the children of Israel....

    Exodus 32:3-4

    3And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron. 4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

    What the Quran says:
    (19:51-53)
    Also mention in the Book (the story of) Moses: for he was specially chosen, and he was a messenger (and) a prophet.
    And we called him from the right side of Mount (Sinai), and made him draw near to Us, for mystic (converse).
    And, out of Our Mercy, We gave him his brother Aaron, (also) a prophet.



    (33:69)
    O ye who believe! Be ye not like those who vexed and insulted Moses, but Allah cleared him of the (calumnies) they had uttered: and he was honourable in Allah's sight.

    (20:90-91)
    Aaron had already, before this said to them: "O my people! ye are being tested in this: for verily your Lord is (Allah) Most Gracious; so follow me and obey my command."
    They had said: "We will not abandon this cult (the calf), but we will devote ourselves to it until Moses returns to us."

    (037:117-122)
    And We gave them the Book which helps to make things clear;
    And We guided them to the Straight Way.
    And We left (this blessing) for them among generations (to come) in later times:
    "Peace and salutation to Moses and Aaron!"
    Thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
    For they were two of our believing Servants.


    I think I have proven my point.
     
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