Crucifixion and Atonement - I Don't Understand

[loverOfTruth]

this verse in Ezekiel is explaining the sense in which God forgives and forgets. When Jehovah forgives a repentant sinner, he wipes the slate clean and forgets about the sin in the sense that he will not take action against that one for those sins at some future time.

So really, 'they will live' because God will not bring punishment on them by ending their life for their sins.

The everlasting life, as promised by God, can only come about during the jugement day...that is during the time when the Messiah leads mankind back to perfection by removing death. And without the Messiah, everlasting life is not possible because we will continue to sin and sin brings forth death. Only the messiah can remove death from us and that is why Jesus sacrifice is the only means for salvation.... because his death has been accepted in exchange for ours.

But we are talking about Living after all the sin of a person is forgiven, they shall live forever - yet they die.

Your explanation sounds like :
2 + 2 = 5 (for extremely large values of 2)

 

[1robin]

But we are talking about Living after all the sin of a person is forgiven, they shall live forever - yet they die.

Your explanation sounds like :
2 + 2 = 5 (for extremely large values of 2)

I think by live forever the Bible is talking about spiritual life verses spiritual death. This is seen in that when Adam sinned and God said he died on that day that he didn't physically die he spiritual died (was seperated from God). It certainly isn't saying that if we repent we will physically live for ever. No one physically lives forever and the prophet knew that and obviously was not so stupid as to claim that we will physically live forever. Is that what you are saying?

I will also add that the Hebrew culture of that time practiced animal sacrifice to pay for sin. It was what is reffered to as a type and shadow. The bllod of perfect and innoscent animals did not forgive sin but pushed the guilt forward year after year. That was valid until Christ came and provided the actual thing that the types and shadows pointed to. He actuall dealt with all the sins of the faithfull that had been pushed forward. His bllod actually cancelled out the debt that no animal could.

 

[Pegg]

But we are talking about Living after all the sin of a person is forgiven, they shall live forever - yet they die.

Your explanation sounds like :
2 + 2 = 5 (for extremely large values of 2)

does this verse say they will live forever 'now' or does it even use the word 'forever'?

No.

So why do you say it means you will live forever now?

 

[loverOfTruth]

does this verse say they will live forever 'now' or does it even use the word 'forever'?

No.

So why do you say it means you will live forever now?

Because it says : "that person will surely live; they will not die".

 

[Pegg]

Because it says : "that person will surely live; they will not die".

ok, so lets say you've done something wrong, you've heard that God is going to bring judgment on you, you repent, God turns back his anger and has allowed you to keep living.

Is that the equivalent of being told you will now live forever?

 

[NIX]

I firmly agree with Sir Terry Pratchett:
“Some humans would do anything to see if it was possible to do it. If you put a large switch in some cave somewhere, with a sign on it saying 'End-of-the-World Switch. PLEASE DO NOT TOUCH', the paint wouldn't even have time to dry.”

It's kinda like the opposite of the "LOST" button.

 

[loverOfTruth]

ok, so lets say you've done something wrong, you've heard that God is going to bring judgment on you, you repent, God turns back his anger and has allowed you to keep living.

Is that the equivalent of being told you will now live forever?

Not according to my concept of Sin - but according to yours 'yes'.
I don't think 'death' is a punishment for 'sin'. So in my case, God forgives me after repentance and then I die a natural death when my time comes.

But in your case, you believe that 'death' only comes(as a punishment) because we 'sin'. So if God has forgiven all your sins(wipe the slate clean) after your repent - you shall not die(no sin, no punishment) and if you do, then 'death' does not happen because of 'sin'.

 

[nazz]

Not according to my concept of Sin - but according to yours 'yes'.
I don't think 'death' is a punishment for 'sin'. So in my case, God forgives me after repentance and then I die a natural death when my time comes.

But in your case, you believe that 'death' only comes(as a punishment) because we 'sin'. So if God has forgiven all your sins(wipe the slate clean) after your repent - you shall not die(no sin, no punishment) and if you do, then 'death' does not happen because of 'sin'.

Just curious then. How does Islam explain death?

 

[loverOfTruth]

Just curious then. How does Islam explain death?

Just like birth - it all happens according to God's will - nothing to do with sin :

"Say, [O Muhammad], "O mankind, indeed I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, [from Him] to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. There is no deity except Him; He gives life and causes death." So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered prophet, who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him that you may be guided." (Al Qur'an 7:158)

"How can you disbelieve in Allah when you were lifeless and He brought you to life; then He will cause you to die, then He will bring you [back] to life, and then to Him you will be returned." (Al Qur'an 2:28)

"Every soul shall have a taste of death: And only on the Day of Judgment shall you be paid your full recompense. Only he who is saved far from the Fire and admitted to the Garden will have attained the object (of Life): For the life of this world is but goods and chattels of deception." (Al Qur'an 3:185)

 

[nazz]

I guess I am asking why God should cause people (and other living things) to die. Considering that death is not a pleasant experience.

 

[loverOfTruth]

I guess I am asking why God should cause people (and other living things) to die. Considering that death is not a pleasant experience.

I suppose God could make people magically disappear from this earth to take them back to Him. But for whatever reason God chose to create a natural process of birth, life and death etc. Why God allows pain to happen (for anything, not only for death)? Death is a test just like all other trials and tribulations in life.

 

[F0uad]

Was this all you had left? If you think I did not answer the question (I think I did) it wouldn't matter anyway as I explained why I feel it was invalid and meaningless to start with. Why don't you try and explain why you feel justified in insisting that whatever God chooses to do must meet your expectations or criteria when God operates on an infinately higher plane and with an infinately larger amount of information at his disposal than me you and everyone who has ever lived put together. The issues that Muslims address are meaningfull, the insistence that God must say or do what you specifically demand, and if not then it is false, is not meaningfull nor valid. It is not even logical.

Well first of all i didn't say that God has to live up my expectation since i don't belief god is unjust nor that the bible is fully god's word.
Secondly i asked a question i didn't oppose a criteria nor did i share my opinion on the manner.
Thirdly if you don't have a answer for it or you find it meaningless why respond, also your whole generalising of Muslims makes me sick you do it over and over.

On-topic:

1. Human-sacrifice are forbidden therefore Jesus(pbuh) sinned?

2. Self-extermination is forbidden so Jesus(pbuh) sinned?

3. According to many references that can be found in the OT and NT one is accountable of hes own sins.

4. Jesus(pbuh) used the example of the parable son on how salvation worked why?

5. If God is just how is it possible for him to punish a sinless man for the wrongdoers if you think about it carefully it makes no sense.

6. To whom was the ransom paid the devil or God who himself sacrificed himself?

7. If a man died on the cross nothing would have happened only god can take away sins so god had to die, but saying that god died is blasphemous and makes no sense since god cannot die.

8. Why didn't the father take the punishment? If you have a son would you let him die to save someone from a drowning car or would you go?

9. If we would apply the same method in a Courtroom what would happen?

10. Now with all respect to all the Christians is it reasonable to belief in it?​

 

[1robin]

Well first of all i didn't say that God has to live up my expectation since i don't belief god is unjust nor that the bible is fully god's word.
Secondly i asked a question i didn't oppose a criteria nor did i share my opinion on the manner.
Thirdly if you don't have a answer for it or you find it meaningless why respond, also your whole generalising of Muslims makes me sick you do it over and over.

I have lost interest in this. You might as well complain about people generalising that cars require gas. Muslim debaters have certain tactics. Some good some bad. One is that they invent arbitrary tests that God must pass in order for them to allow that the act in question is genuine. For example: "Did Jesus ever say I am God, worship me" That test is invalid. Here is another example from you,

And if so why shouldn't we implement this in the courtrooms?

What is applied in courtrooms is completely different from a method God uses to save us. The two environments can't be farther apart. There is no valid reason to imply that what applies for an earthly court room to have any bearing what so ever on what God does. It is not a valid test and is not usefull to establish belief in what Christ did. Anyway I am done with these appeals to sympathy and irrelevant tests for now. Shalom,

 

[F0uad]

I have lost interest in this. You might as well complain about people generalising that cars require gas. Muslim debaters have certain tactics. Some good some bad. One is that they invent arbitrary tests that God must pass in order for them to allow that the act in question is genuine. For example: "Did Jesus ever say I am God, worship me" That test is invalid. Here is another example from you,

Well i lost my interest in you as a whole person after you have shown that your not sincere nor honest in our previous debate. I never made such statement please quote me, if you agree that some Muslims do have good arguments why do you keep mentioning the bad ones?. Almost in any discussion with muslims or about certain subjects that have to do with Christianity you have to accuse the Muslims of bringing forth illogical claims, even when your discussion them with a Jews or a Messianic Jews. Also i am not sure how my questions reflects that kind of approach i think i have developed my arguments beyond that?

What is applied in courtrooms is completely different from a method God uses to save us. The two environments can't be farther apart. There is no valid reason to imply that what applies for an earthly court room to have any bearing what so ever on what God does. It is not a valid test and is not usefull to establish belief in what Christ did. Anyway I am done with these appeals to sympathy and irrelevant tests for now. Shalom,

I think your confused what i was trying to point out, it is the Criminal part to let them go free. Anyway i want to ask you to stop replying on me if you have nothing relevant to say.

 

[Pegg]

Just like birth - it all happens according to God's will - nothing to do with sin :

"Say, [O Muhammad], "O mankind, indeed I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, [from Him] to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. There is no deity except Him; He gives life and causes death." So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered prophet, who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him that you may be guided." (Al Qur'an 7:158)

"How can you disbelieve in Allah when you were lifeless and He brought you to life; then He will cause you to die, then He will bring you [back] to life, and then to Him you will be returned." (Al Qur'an 2:28)

"Every soul shall have a taste of death: And only on the Day of Judgment shall you be paid your full recompense. Only he who is saved far from the Fire and admitted to the Garden will have attained the object (of Life): For the life of this world is but goods and chattels of deception." (Al Qur'an 3:185)

the bible paints quite a different picture of the reason for death. The Genesis account shows that Adam had the opportunity to live forever....God warned him what would happen if he disobeyed Gods laws, death would result.
Genesis 2:15 And Jehovah God proceeded to take the man and settle him in the garden of E′den to cultivate it and to take care of it. 16 And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.

So if Adam never ate from the tree, he would never have died. Death was only the result of disobedience to Gods laws.

 

[nazz]

the bible paints quite a different picture of the reason for death. The Genesis account shows that Adam had the opportunity to live forever....God warned him what would happen if he disobeyed Gods laws, death would result.
Genesis 2:15 And Jehovah God proceeded to take the man and settle him in the garden of E′den to cultivate it and to take care of it. 16 And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.

So if Adam never ate from the tree, he would never have died. Death was only the result of disobedience to Gods laws.

And science says, with evidence to back up its claims, that living things have been dying for billions of years and it has nothing to do with sin.

 

[F0uad]

the bible paints quite a different picture of the reason for death. The Genesis account shows that Adam had the opportunity to live forever....God warned him what would happen if he disobeyed Gods laws, death would result.
Genesis 2:15 And Jehovah God proceeded to take the man and settle him in the garden of E′den to cultivate it and to take care of it. 16 And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.

So if Adam never ate from the tree, he would never have died. Death was only the result of disobedience to Gods laws.

I also wanted to add Adam(pbuh) didn't die.. he was just send to earth that's all...

 

[Pegg]

And science says, with evidence to back up its claims, that living things have been dying for billions of years and it has nothing to do with sin.

only the man was created in Gods image...so the bible doesnt claim that animals were living forever....only that the man 'could' have if he remained obedient to God.

Ask yourself, how long to the angels live for? 80yrs? 100yrs? 1,000yrs?

 

[Drolefille]

How could they rationally be held to a modern standard, when they are ancient writings? They do what they were designed to do -- that's what we have, and it's enough.

Then you're asking the texts to be something they were never intended to be. It's like buying a car and then being all upset because the car doesn't get your clothes clean enough. Well, the car isn't supposed to clean clothes. It wasn't designed to do that, no one expects it to do that (except you), and it's not going to do that.

Look, we know that Luke, at least, was written as ancient history. Why in the world, if he's writing history, would Luke (who, BTW, was not Jewish) write about a mythic character, rather than a real person? Answer: He wouldn't. We have at least four different sources, written at four different times to four different communities, about a man who was literally crucified. Odds are pretty good that it's a literal event, even if the details vary.

I'm not expecting the Bible to be historical in a modern sense, I'm only stating that it is not. This is not an assumption that it should be. You've picked up on a fairly throw away comment and hung onto it like a terrier.
I would agree that biblical literalists are expecting the Bible to be something it isn't. THEY expect the car to clean clothes. I don't want a car, I want a steam cleaner, so I'm not going to pick up the bible in the first place as I find it unsatisfying.
The four gospels were not written independently and are based off of each other and other common sources. I think that you mistake the man and the myth, one can write about both, and not be sure where one ends and the other begins. This happens when people talk about modern and recent past figures as well.

I am not making definitive statements, just considering possibilities.

 

[1robin]

Well i lost my interest in you as a whole person after you have shown that your not sincere nor honest in our previous debate. I never made such statement please quote me, if you agree that some Muslims do have good arguments why do you keep mentioning the bad ones?. Almost in any discussion with muslims or about certain subjects that have to do with Christianity you have to accuse the Muslims of bringing forth illogical claims, even when your discussion them with a Jews or a Messianic Jews. Also i am not sure how my questions reflects that kind of approach i think i have developed my arguments beyond that?

I think your confused what i was trying to point out, it is the Criminal part to let them go free. Anyway i want to ask you to stop replying on me if you have nothing relevant to say.

So you complain because I made a mild impersonal negative comment about Muslim debaters in general, and then you make a bunch of personal negative comments about me specifically. That is somewhat hypocritical. I leave you with it. I just do not have the time.