Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
What was ironic was that the age of the fossils was in his post. I can appreciate how physicists have to deal with The Electric Universe claims.
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Creation scientists say it was Noah's flood that broke apart the continents. AIG
- Thread starter Twilight Hue
- Start date
Subduction Zone, bird dropping is not an "attack", at least not by me but the bird may see it differently.
still the post has been changed just for you my sweet plump dumpling
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Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
It does not matter if one lists sources at all if the person does not understand them. And using such a list amounts to a Gish Gallop. There are some true claims in that list and some obviously false ones. He relies heavily on the refuted work of McKee for example. By the way, the false claims about the Grand Canyon can be refuted with one picture. If one understands geology at all it is obvious that the process took millions of years.Your knee jerk reaction surprises me, but then again, I doubt if you even looked at the article.
Still, carry on, you are entertaining and maybe, just maybe you will post something that characterizes a real geologist.
I can only hope
Below are the references used to create that article-----
References:
1. Morris, J. D., The Young Earth, Master Books, 1994. pp. 98-100.
2. American Journal of Science, Vol. 276: 1976.
3. Walker, R. W., Evolving Concepts in Sedimentology, 1973.
4. Coffin Harold G., TheYellowstone Petrified "Forests", Origins 24:5-44.1997.
5. LeMaitre, R.W., The chemical variability of some common igneous rocks, Journal of Petrology, v. 17, 1976.
6. Levin, Harold L. Contemporary Physical Geology. Second Edition. Washington University. St. Louis. 1986.
7. Burdick, C. L. "Geologic Formation Near Loch Assynt Compared With Glarus Formation" Creation Research Society Quarterly Vol. 12 No. 3. December 1975.
8. Morris, J. D. The Young Earth, Master Books. 1994. pp. 109-112.
9. Burdick, C.L. and Slusher, H.S. "The Empire Mountains - A Thrust Fault?" Creation Research Society Annual p. 49. June 1969.
10. Veith, W. J. The Genesis Conflict, 1997.
11. Watson, S., 1997. Economics of Beach Restoration, Coastal Currents, Florida Coastal Management Program Newsletter, v. 5, no. 3, pp. 6-8.
12. Burch, T .L. and C. R. Sherwood, Historical Bathymetric Changes Near the Entrance of Grays Harbor, Washington, report PNL-8414 prepared by the Battelle/Marine Science Laboratory for the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers-Seattle District, 1992, p. 52.
13. McKenna, Kimberly K., Davenport, Sally S., and Wadick, Ashley K., Management of the Beach/Dune System in Texas, Proc. Sixth Annual National Conference on Beach Preservation Technology , St. Petersburg, FL, Feb. 10, 1993.
14. Baars, D.L., 1962. Permian System of the Colorado Plateau. American Association of Petroleum Geologists Bulletin, vol. 46, pp. 200-201.
15. Middleton, L.T., Elliott, D.K. andMorales, M., 1990. Coconino Sandstone. In: Grand Canyon Geology, S.S. Beus and M. Morales (eds), Oxford University Press, New York, and Museum of Northern Arizona Press, chapter 10, pp. 183-202.
16. Young, D.A., 1990. The discovery ofterrestrial history. In: Portraits of Creation, H.J. Van Till, R.E. Shaw, J.H. Stek and D.A. Young (eds), William B. Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, Michigan, chapter 3, pp. 80-81.
17. McKee, E.D., 1947. Experiments on the development of tracks in fine cross-bedded sand. Journal of Sedimentary Petrology, vol. 17, pp. 23-28.
18. Brand, L.R. and Tang, T., 1991. Fossil vertebrate footprints in the Coconino Sandstone (Permian) of northern Arizona: Evidence for underwater origin. Geology, vol. 19,pp. 1201-1204.
19. Monastersky, R., 1992. Wading newts may explain enigmatic tracks. Science News, vol. 141 (1), p. 5.
20. Geology Today, vol. 8(3), May-June 1992, pp, 78-79 (Wet tracks).
21. Visher, G.S., 1990. Exploration Stratigraphy, 2nd edition, Penn Well Publishing Co., Tulsa, Oklahoma, pp. 211-213.
22. Kuenen, P.H. and Perdok, W.G., 1962. Experimental abrasion, frosting and defrosting of quartz grains. Journal of Geology, vol. 70, pp. 648-658.
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24. Waisgerber, William, Howe, George F. and Williams, Emmett L. "Mississippian and Cambrian Interbedding: 200 Million Year Hiatus in Question" Creation Research Society Quarterly. Vol. 23 No. 4. March 1987.
25. Brand, L.R. Origins 5(2):64-82 (1978).
26. Brand, L.R. and T. Tang. 1991. Fossil vertebrate footprints in the Coconino Sandstone [Permian] of northern Arizona: evidence for underwater origin. Geology, 19:1201-1204.
27. McKee, E.D. 1933. The Coconino Sandstone: its history and origin. Carnegie Institution of Washington, Contributions to Paleontology,Publication No. 440:77-115.
28. McKee, E.D. 1944. Tracks that go uphill. Plateau 16(4):61-73.
29. McKee, E.D. 1945. Small-scale structures in the Coconino Sandstone of northern Arizona. Journal of Geology 53(5):313-325.
30. McKee, E.D. 1947. Experiments on the development of tracks in fine cross-bedded sand. Journal of Sedimentary Petrology 17:23-28.
31. McKee, E.D. 1966. Ancient landscapes of the Grand Canyon region. Northland Press, Flagstaff, Arizona.
32. Pratt, David, 2000. Plate Tectonics: A Paradigm Under Threat, vol. 14, no. 3, pp. 307-352. ( Search | com.com )
33. Wyllie, P. J., 1976. The Way the Earth Works. New York: John Wiley & Sons.
34. Dott, R. H., Jr., & Batten, R. L.,1981. Evolution of the Earth (3rd ed.). New York: McGraw-Hill Book Company.
35. McGeary, D., & Plummer, C. C.,1998. Physical Geology: earth revealed (3rd ed.). Boston, MA: WCB, McGraw-Hill.
36. Meyerhoff, A. A., Taner, I., Morris, A. E. L., Agocs, W. B., Kaymen-Kaye, M., Bhat, M. I., Smoot, N. C., & Choi, D. R. (1996a). Surge Tectonics: a new hypothesis of global geodynamics (D. Meyerhoff Hull, Ed.). Dordrecht: Kluwer.
37. Pavlenkova, N. I. (1990). Crustal and upper mantle structure and plate tectonics. In Barto-Kyriakidis, 1990, vol. 1, pp. 73-86.
38. R.S. Coe, M. Pravot, and P. Camps, "New Evidence for Extraordinary Rapid Change of the Geomagnetic Field During a Reversal," Nature, 1995, 374:687-692.
39. http://www.glenn.morton.btinternet.co.uk/orkney.htm
40. http://groups.google.com/talk.origins
41. http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/32/32_4a1.html
42. Search | com.com
43. Earth History Web Site
44. http://www.grisda.org/2003-FSC-open/Roth-RecentCreation.htm
45. http://home.entouch.net/dmd/toomanyanimals.htm
46. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/geocolumn/
47. http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/Magazines/tj/docs/v16n1_columbia.asp
48. Riebe, C., Kirchner, J.W., Granger D.E., Finkel, R.C., "Minimal climatic control on erosion rates in the Sierra Nevada, California", Geology; May 2001; v. 29; no.5; p. 447-450. (http://www.seismo.berkeley.edu/~kirchner/reprints/2001_41_minimal_climatic.pdf)
49. Lasaga, A.C., Rye, D.M., "Reactive Fluid Flow and Applications to Diagenesis, Mineral Deposits, and Crustal Rocks", Grantee: Yale University, Department of Geophysics, Summer, 1997. (http://www.sc.doe.gov/production/bes/geo/Publications/FY97Summ/yale.htm)
50. Kingham, Robert, "Geology of the Murray-Darling Basin - simplified Lithostratigraphic Groupings", Australian Geological Survey Organization, Department of Primary Industries and Energy, 1998. (http://www.brs.gov.au/mdbsis/mdbgeol.pdf)
51. DeLaughter, John, "Cooling Rate and Crystal Size", Accessed December, 2003. (http://www.earth.nwu.edu/people/seth/demos/XTAL/xtal.html)
52. Barnett, J. and Fisk, L.H., "Palynology and paleoecology of a sedimentary interbed in the Yakima Basalt (Miocene)", Palouse Falls, Washington, (4):259-278, 1980. Northwest Science, p 54.
53. Newell, N. D., "Mass extinction: unique or recurrent causes?" In W. A. Berggren and J. A. Van Couvering (eds.). "Catastrophes and Earth History: The New Uniformitarianism", pp. 115-127. Princeton University Press, Princeton, New Jersey. 1984.
54. Van Andel, T. H., "Consider the incompleteness of the geological record", Nature 294:397-398, 1981.
55. Judson, S. and D. F. Ritter, "Rates of regional denudation on the United States", Journal of Geophysical Research 69:3395-3401, 1964.
56. Sparks, B. W., Geomorphology. 3rd ed. Longman Group, London and New York, 1986.
57. Twidale, C. R., "On the survival of paleoforms. American Jour
58. Newell, N. D., "Paraconformities", In C. Teichert and E. L. Yochelson (eds.). "Essays in Paleontology and Stratigraphy", pp. 349-367. Department of Geology, University of Kansas Special Publication 2, 1967.
59. Roth, Ariel A., "Those Gaps in the Sedimentary Layers", Origins 15(2):75-92, 1988. (http://www.grisda.org/origins/15075.htm)
60. King, L.C., Morphology and the Earth: Edinburgh: Oliver & Boyd,1960, p. 699.
61. Daily, B., Twidale, C.R., & Milnes, A.R., "The Age of the Lateritized Summit Surface an Kangaroo Island and Adjacent areas of South Australia." Geological Soc. Australia Jour., V.21, 1974, pp.387-392.
62. Dott, R. H. and R. L. Batten. 1971. Evolution of the earth. McGraw-Hill, New York. ( http://www.grisda.org/origins/13064.htm)
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69. Morton, Glenn - http://home.entouch.net/dmd/clasdyke.htm , 2002
70. Ed Stiles, "Is the Grand Canyon a Geologic Infant?" The University of Arizona News, OPI, July 18, 2002 ( http://uanews.opi.arizona.edu/cgi-b...s?ArticleID=5820&wosid=7RudwGAB7hQJYHvwohuzt0 )
.,.,.etc.
Subduction Zone, Oh Wise one, where are your sources?
Just asking
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Please, no personal attacks. Be warned, when one uses sources written by liars and idiots one tends to look like one. You have not chosen your sources wisely. Can you properly support any of your claims?Wave Oh Wise One, wave.,..wave.,.,...,.wave.,,.and the sun will rise and the moon will set and a bird in the sky will poop on your head where you stand.
poop, pe poop
You are still missing the point.
Was there a great flood? (yes)
Was this the flood the Bible referenced? (maybe/maybe not)
Does this make me reject the Bible entirely? (no)
The biblical verses are basically God’s instructions to His people on how they should live their lives. If they chose to follow His commandments, they would live a contented life, if not, the would not. Humanity has put those instructions into law and have treated the stranger as one of their own. For this alone we should be grateful for these instructions whether you are a religious person or not.
In my view of things
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Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
You mean "No". There have been large floods, but no "great flood".
Was this the flood the Bible referenced? (maybe/maybe not)
Does this make me reject the Bible entirely? (no)
The biblical verses are basically God’s instructions to His people on how they should live their lives. If they chose to follow His commandments, they would live a fulfilled life, if not, the would not. Humanity has put those instructions into law and have treated the stranger as one of their own. For this alone we should be grateful for these instructions whether you are a religious person or not.
In my view of things
That is a little more reasonable. Treat it as a morality tale and you can't be terribly wrong. Treat it as an actual event and you harm belief in the Bible.
Subduction Zone, Oh poor baby, you filed a complaint about my post.
If I hurt your feelings, please forgive me
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If I hurt your feelings, please forgive me
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sooda
Veteran Member
I have, now it is your turn to follow up on your non sources
waiting
"Treat it (the Bible) as a morality tale and you can't be terribly wrong. Treat it as an actual event and you harm belief in the Bible."
Really good advice and kind..
To persist will only drive intelligent and educated people away from faith. Is your ego more important?
Christians should not be required to park their brains or forego education.
The problem with your view is that you look at the Bible as one (1) book, good or bad. That is not the case. The Bible covers a lot of territory and some do not intertwine with others.
take these verses for example--
(Mal 3:5 KJV) And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
(Deu 24:19 KJV) When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands.
(Deu 24:20 KJV) When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.
(Deu 24:21 KJV) When thou gatherest the grapes of thy vineyard, thou shalt not glean it afterward: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.
(Jer 7:6 KJV) If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:
(Jer 22:3 KJV) Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.
(Ezek 22:7 KJV) In thee have they set light by father and mother: in the midst of thee have they dealt by oppression with the stranger: in thee have they vexed the fatherless and the widow.
(Zec 7:10 KJV) And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.
(Exo 22:21 KJV) Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
(Exo 23:9 KJV) Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
(Lev 19:34 KJV) But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
(Lev 25:35 KJV) And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee.
(Deu 1:16 KJV) And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.
(Deu 10:18 KJV) He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.
(Deu 10:19 KJV) Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
The above is pretty good advice, even today
-If only today Israel would follow the above too but as we know they don't
sooda
Veteran Member
The problem with your view is that you look at the Bible as one (1) book, good or bad. That is not the case. The Bible covers a lot of territory and some do not intertwine with others.
take these verses for example--
(Mal 3:5 KJV) And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
(Deu 24:19 KJV) When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands.
(Deu 24:20 KJV) When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.
(Deu 24:21 KJV) When thou gatherest the grapes of thy vineyard, thou shalt not glean it afterward: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.
(Jer 7:6 KJV) If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:
(Jer 22:3 KJV) Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.
(Ezek 22:7 KJV) In thee have they set light by father and mother: in the midst of thee have they dealt by oppression with the stranger: in thee have they vexed the fatherless and the widow.
(Zec 7:10 KJV) And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.
(Exo 22:21 KJV) Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
(Exo 23:9 KJV) Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
(Lev 19:34 KJV) But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
(Lev 25:35 KJV) And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee.
(Deu 1:16 KJV) And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.
(Deu 10:18 KJV) He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.
(Deu 10:19 KJV) Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
The above is pretty good advice, even today
If only today Israel would follow the above too but as we know they don't
You completely missed the point.
sooda
Veteran Member
Then make your point on a third grade level because that is who you are talking too
I know absolutely nothing about the "Bab"..
Was there ever a global flood? No.
Since the Bible described a global flood, no. But the story was probably originally based on a large local flood. The writers of the Bible got the story from the Babylonians, which had it in the Epic of Gilgamesh for ages before that part of the Bible was written.
Does this make me reject the Bible entirely? (no)
The biblical verses are basically God’s instructions to His people on how they should live their lives. If they chose to follow His commandments, they would live a contented life, if not, the would not. Humanity has put those instructions into law and have treated the stranger as one of their own. For this alone we should be grateful for these instructions whether you are a religious person or not.
In my view of things
OK, so the actual veracity of the stories in the Bible is irrelevant? What is relevant is the moral tales that they tell? That is actually the ancient view of the role of historical writing. Most cultures weren't as interested in the facts as they were in the examples the stories gave for how to act.
For me, the truth of the account is important. But that is because I neither believe in a deity nor do I believe the Bible is a good book on which to base morals.
*** mod post ***
OK, guys, calm it down. Remember rule 1:
1. Personal Comments About Members and Staff
Personal attacks and name-calling, whether direct or in the third person, are strictly prohibited on the forums. Critique each other's ideas all you want, but under no circumstances personally attack each other or the staff. Quoting a member's post in a separate/new thread without their permission to challenge or belittle them, or harassing staff members for performing moderation duties, will also be considered a personal attack.
OK, guys, calm it down. Remember rule 1:
1. Personal Comments About Members and Staff
Personal attacks and name-calling, whether direct or in the third person, are strictly prohibited on the forums. Critique each other's ideas all you want, but under no circumstances personally attack each other or the staff. Quoting a member's post in a separate/new thread without their permission to challenge or belittle them, or harassing staff members for performing moderation duties, will also be considered a personal attack.
I hear you and I for one will follow it to the letter.
to the best of my human ability
If I have offended anyone, please forgive me
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to the best of my human ability
If I have offended anyone, please forgive me
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IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
It's ridiculous. It's the kind of thing a few of my fellow religionists do that is embarrassing. Please pay them no attention!!! LOL