Convince me that Putin is wrong

[TagliatelliMonster]

But accidentally...in Europe such a thing, that is Russophobia, is less intense.
Otherwise Wilders would have never won the Dutch elections. And he will win them again.
Let's not forget what Salvini said in 2017: I prefer Putin, if I had to choose between Putin and Juncker.

Actually I should kiss the feet of all those who push for the escalation of this conflict, because they are making us win the next European elections.

When you get what you wish for, you will likely finally realize how wrong you were.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Generally, I think the domestic situation in any given country is relevant only in highly specific contexts to whether another country's foreign policy toward it is justified.

The US backed a coup in Iran that would enable the current theocracy to be established, and, along with its allies (mainly the UK), has been responsible for more innocent deaths and sponsorship of dictatorships abroad in the last several decades than China and Iran combined.

Russia has a troubling track record of its own when it comes to foreign policy, especially during its USSR days. Even if it had more domestic freedom and a higher standard of living, that record wouldn't change.

I'm not talking about any foreign policies.
Nobody is telling these people how to run their countries.

How many people in Russia have "fallen" from balconies the past 2 years?
How many are rotting away in jails in polar regions, for what?

Go to Russia, Iran and China and try setting up a protest against the ruling government.
Or even only try to enter politics in opposition to these ruling parties.

See what happens.

 

[Koldo]

So, after extraordinary and absolutely historic interview with Putin (made by T. Carlson), I have understood that:

- In 2000 Putin had asked Clinton to join in the NATO, because he wanted perpetual peace between the West and Eastern Europe after 50 years of cold war.
But Clinton replied him that it was not possible, meaning: that Russia was not welcomed. So, as a consequence, the US are to blame for this new cold war, because they did anything to isolate, boycott and antagonize the Russian Federation.

Russia didn't formally ask to join NATO.

- An array of elitist people coming from the US has wanted to colonize Ukraine and to turn it into a anti-Russian military base. They funded the Maidan coup in 2014, and they pushed the Kiev government to persecute the Russian-speaking people of Donbas in order to provoke Putin and to lure him into a trap.
That is, forcing him to invade Donbas to rescue the Donbas civilians, mercilessly attacked by the government in Kiev.

Where is the evidence?

- Putin wasn't fooled by that trap, and signed the two Minsk agreements instead, which were meant to force Germany and France to be guarantors and Ukraine to respect the two self-proclaimed Donbas republics, Luhansk and Donetsk. In the meantime, Russia funded the separatists of Donbas, so they could at least defend themselves; and annexed Crimea, which had made a referendum to get out of that Inferno called Ukraine. As a consequence, the Obama administration antagonized Putin and Russia was excluded from the G8 and the Council of Europe. As a punishment.

A referendum done at Russia's gunpoint.

- Despite the restless efforts of France and Germany to convince Zelenskyy to respect the Minsk agreements, Zelenskyy was expected to obey the elites of the United States, who ordered him to deceive Europeans, and not to respect the Minsk agreements. Macron went to Kiev in 2022 to be reassured, but after he returned to France, Zelenskyy surely obeying his masters overseas, said that he would not respect the Minsk agreements.

-Putin, seeing that Zelenskyy was against the Minsk agreements, had no other option than to invade. In this war, he reached Kiev to denazify it as they say, but he was persuaded to withdraw the troops to start the peace negotiations in Istanbul.

Where's the evidence he reached Kiev to denazify it?

 

[Debater Slayer]

I'm not talking about any foreign policies.
Nobody is telling these people how to run their countries.

How many people in Russia have "fallen" from balconies the past 2 years?
How many are rotting away in jails in polar regions, for what?

Go to Russia, Iran and China and try setting up a protest against the ruling government.
Or even only try to enter politics in opposition to these ruling parties.

See what happens.

All three countries are run by murderous tyrants, yes. I took the post you were responding to as being about antagonizing them to the point of getting close to a war with them, though. Trump did get close to war with Iran and China because of his thoughtless antagonism of both. That's what I was alluding to in my response. Such a war wouldn't serve to advance democracy or freedom in any of those countries; if anything, it would probably further empower the dictators and inadvertently paint them as patriotic defenders of their respective homelands.

I disagree that Putin would have been swayed by friendlier policies from the West, though, since he seems to me a bellicose imperialist who has long wanted to expand Russia's influence even if that meant military conflict (e.g., in Georgia and Ukraine).

 

[Debater Slayer]

So, after extraordinary and absolutely historic interview with Putin (made by T. Carlson), I have understood that:

- In 2000 Putin had asked Clinton to join in the NATO, because he wanted perpetual peace between the West and Eastern Europe after 50 years of cold war.
But Clinton replied him that it was not possible, meaning: that Russia was not welcomed. So, as a consequence, the US are to blame for this new cold war, because they did anything to isolate, boycott and antagonize the Russian Federation.

- An array of elitist people coming from the US has wanted to colonize Ukraine and to turn it into a anti-Russian military base. They funded the Maidan coup in 2014, and they pushed the Kiev government to persecute the Russian-speaking people of Donbas in order to provoke Putin and to lure him into a trap.
That is, forcing him to invade Donbas to rescue the Donbas civilians, mercilessly attacked by the government in Kiev.

- Putin wasn't fooled by that trap, and signed the two Minsk agreements instead, which were meant to force Germany and France to be guarantors and Ukraine to respect the two self-proclaimed Donbas republics, Luhansk and Donetsk. In the meantime, Russia funded the separatists of Donbas, so they could at least defend themselves; and annexed Crimea, which had made a referendum to get out of that Inferno called Ukraine. As a consequence, the Obama administration antagonized Putin and Russia was excluded from the G8 and the Council of Europe. As a punishment.

- Despite the restless efforts of France and Germany to convince Zelenskyy to respect the Minsk agreements, Zelenskyy was expected to obey the elites of the United States, who ordered him to deceive Europeans, and not to respect the Minsk agreements. Macron went to Kiev in 2022 to be reassured, but after he returned to France, Zelenskyy surely obeying his masters overseas, said that he would not respect the Minsk agreements.

-Putin, seeing that Zelenskyy was against the Minsk agreements, had no other option than to invade. In this war, he reached Kiev to denazify it as they say, but he was persuaded to withdraw the troops to start the peace negotiations in Istanbul.
The text of the peace agreement had already been drafted: at the last moment, British PM Johnson ordered Zelenskyy not to sign it. That is why in 2022, the war continued, even if it could have been ended in Summer 2022.

- Of course the CIA blew up the two Nordstream Pipelines to boycott Putin, and to prevent him from getting money from the sale of natural gas to Germany. Money that he would have spent on the war.


This is a very, very, very serious thread, so I will be as strict as possible, by not allowing:
1) name calling towards Carlson or Putin
2) speaking of Trump . This is about Europe.
3) changing subject, going off topic
4) ad hominems

Merci beaucoup...mes chers.

The thread is now six pages long, and I haven't seen you acknowledge any counterarguments to the above as understandable—not even valid or accurate, but merely understandable.

I believe this thread was started as an attempt to lecture and preach, not to understand or engage in productive discussion.

 

[Estro Felino]

Russia didn't formally ask to join NATO.

Before doing that, Putin asked to join informally to touch base...
and the answer was no.
So it's the Americans who didn't want Russia to join.

And I trust Putin. Not the CIA.

Where is the evidence?

There are so many Ukrainian refugees that can testify in any courtroom in Europe.
Imagine if those testimonies enter a European courtroom.
The pro-Ukraine advocates will be destroyed in court.
Crushed like cockroaches.

Because what happened in Odessa in 2014 was crimes against humanity.

A referendum done at Russia's gunpoint.

Ask the UN to redo it. With no Russian army present.
Have fun.
For the record: the poll watchers will be from Donbas. Not from America or Ukraine.

Where's the evidence he reached Kiev to denazify it?

He said it before, during and after the invasion of Kiev.

 

[Estro Felino]

The thread is now six pages long, and I haven't seen you acknowledge any counterarguments to the above as understandable—not even valid or accurate, but merely understandable.

I believe this thread was started as an attempt to lecture and preach, not to understand or engage in productive discussion.

I have just read ad hominems mostly...

If you can disprove what Putin said...well...I will listen to you.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I have just read ad hominems mostly...

If you can disprove what Putin said...well...I will listen to you.

No, I don't believe you will, because you have, in my view, already demonstrated that you will only listen if someone agrees with you or buys into a variety of conspiracy theories before the discussion can even start.

It doesn't show respect to other people when someone wastes their time and energy by being dismissive and evasive instead of addressing their actual points and showing willingness to understand said points, even if one doesn't agree with the presented arguments.

 

[Estro Felino]

No, I don't believe you will, because you have, in my view, already demonstrated that you will only listen if someone agrees with you or buys into a variety of conspiracy theories before the discussion can even start.

It doesn't show respect to other people when someone wastes their time and energy by being dismissive and evasive instead of addressing their actual points and showing willingness to understand said points, even if one doesn't agree with the presented arguments.

Link me the posts where I don't address people's actual points.

 

[Koldo]

Before doing that, Putin asked to join informally to touch base...
and the answer was no.
So it's the Americans who didn't want Russia to join.

If Russia really wanted to join NATO, why did it never ask formally?

And I trust Putin. Not the CIA.

Why do you trust Putin?

There are so many Ukrainian refugees that can testify in any courtroom in Europe.
Imagine if those testimonies enter a European courtroom.
The pro-Ukraine advocates will be destroyed in court.
Crushed like cockroaches.

So many... who exactly?
Where is the evidence?

Because what happened in Odessa in 2014 was crimes against humanity.

Ask the UN to redo it. With no Russian army present.
Have fun.
For the record: the poll watchers will be from Donbas. Not from America or Ukraine.

While Russia remains in control of Crimea?

He said it before, during and after the invasion of Kiev.

What he says is worth nothing. Do you believe what every politician says?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Link me the posts where I don't address people's actual points.

Just some examples:

Of course not. He had to consult with the real masters of the US first. The unelected élites.
Those whom Tulsi Gabbard defined the elitist cabal of warmongers.

Crimea is inhabited by Russians. Russians who speak Russian. So if the Kiev Government wants to occupy Crimea, they will commit a crime against Crimeans: the violation of Crimeans' right of self-determination.
This is provable in any courtroom of Europe.

Can you prove that Zelenskyy doesn't work for Washington DC?
Or at least...that he isn't asked to align with an agenda coming from the WH?

That's why we Europeans will welcome Ukraine into the EU. So it will never be Russia's state puppet again.

I said that countries like Germany, Italy, Austria have done anything to build bridges with Russia. Also cultural and political bridges of mutual respect.
Au contraire, US or UK or the Baltics have done anything to antagonize Putin throughout 20 years. Will you admit to that?

This is a frequent MO: you throw a bunch of claims in someone else's face without providing evidence and then either want them to "admit" the perceived veracity of those claims or dismiss their arguments because they don't accept the conspiracy-minded, unsubstantiated premises you have thrown in their face.

The tactic is essentially a Gish gallop where each claim in the gallop would need a separate thread to unpack because of how many unevidenced and conspiracy-minded claims it contains.

This is not discussion or dialogue; it's thinly veiled preaching and time-wasting. I call this the Putin gallop, in the case of this thread.

 

[Estro Felino]

Just some examples:











This is a frequent MO: you throw a bunch of claims in someone else's face without providing evidence and then either want them to "admit" the perceived veracity of those claims or dismiss their arguments because they don't accept the conspiracy-minded, unsubstantiated premises you have thrown in their face.

The tactic is essentially a Gish gallop where each claim in the gallop would need a separate thread to unpack because of how many unevidenced and conspiracy-minded claims it contains.

This is not discussion or dialogue; it's thinly veiled preaching and time-wasting. I call this the Putin gallop, in the case of this thread.

Debate doesn't deal with two people who say: I agree with you.
Debate deals with two people disagreeing with each other.

So it's good that two people disagree. All that matters is that they do it respectfully and cordially.

I don't understand your point here: if someone disagree with you, will you call them conspiracy theorist?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Debate doesn't deal with two people who say: I agree with you.
Debate deals with two people disagreeing with each other.

So it's good that two people disagree. All that matters is that they do it respectfully and cordially.

I don't see anything respectful about frequently evading people's points and tossing unverified claims in their face. Wasting others' time and not trying to understand their perspectives is not "respectful" or "cordial."

I don't understand your point here: if someone disagree with you, will you call them conspiracy theorist?

See? Yet again trying to reframe another person's position instead of putting in effort to understand it.

No, I'm not calling your claims conspiracy-minded because you "disagree" with anyone; it's because you keep introducing one unevidenced claim after another. An unevidenced theory that assumes clandestine, sinister intent is a textbook example of a conspiracy theory.

I'm not going to humor this thread any further. Have fun with it, I guess.

 

[Estro Felino]

If Russia really wanted to join NATO, why did it never ask formally?

Again. They did.
The Americans don't want Russia in the NATO.
Ask Americans. Americans created the NATO to antagonize Russia, not to welcome her.

Then there the European countries which were defeated in WW2, which are considered insignificant military colonies by the US.

Why do you trust Putin?

Because Putin never stabbed my country in the back.
Some warmongers overseas did...
thanks to Wikileaks I read all those terrifying things they did.
Read Wikileaks.

So many... who exactly?
Where is the evidence?

I know them. I can tell you name and surnames.
Of refugees who fled the Poroshenko regime. They live in Germany, Italy...now.

While Russia remains in control of Crimea?

The UN will deal with it.
Russia is a UN member.

What he says is worth nothing. Do you believe what every politician says?

Of course not.
I am just quoting him.
I just think that Ukraine should be independent. Both from Russia and from the US.

 

[Estro Felino]

I don't see anything respectful about frequently evading people's points and tossing unverified claims in their face. Wasting others' time and not trying to understand their perspectives is not "respectful" or "cordial."



See? Yet again trying to reframe another person's position instead of putting in effort to understand it.

No, I'm not calling your claims conspiracy-minded because you "disagree" with anyone; it's because you keep introducing one unevidenced claim after another. An unevidenced theory that assumes clandestine, sinister intent is a textbook example of a conspiracy theory.

I'm not going to humor this thread any further. Have fun with it, I guess.

This thread is not about me.
It's about Putin's interview.

So... if you don't agree with what Putin said in that interview, just list the things you found untrue.

 

[Koldo]

Again. They did.
The Americans don't want Russia in the NATO.
Ask Americans. Americans created the NATO to antagonize Russia, not to welcome her.

Then there the European countries which were defeated in WW2, which are considered insignificant military colonies by the US.

Prove that Russia made a formal request to join NATO.

Because Putin never stabbed my country in the back.
Some warmongers overseas did...
thanks to Wikileaks I read all those terrifying things they did.
Read Wikileaks.

I never stabbed your country in the back either. Do you trust me too?

I know them. I can tell you name and surnames.
Of refugees who fled the Poroshenko regime. They live in Germany, Italy...now.

I don't accept hearsay as evidence. You need to do better than that.

The UN will deal with it.
Russia is a UN member.

Ever heard of the power to veto?

Of course not.
I am just quoting him.
I just think that Ukraine should be independent. Both from Russia and from the US.

How does Russia wrecking havoc in Ukraine achieve that exactly?

 

[Stevicus]

We used to have a Italian Socialist Party, and an Italian Communist Party. Funded by Moscow.
Their supporters are still there.
They didn't change their mind about Russia.

The US have never had a Russophile party.
Hence the natural Russophobia. But it's normal.

It's not just against Putin.

I don't think there was any "natural" Russophobia in America, at least not through most of the 18th and 19th centuries. Most early perceptions were likely formed by immigrants from Russia, many of whom were forced to flee political and/or ethnic/religious repression. Plus, as US and British seafaring and economic interests became more closely aligned, their already-existent Russophobia was spread to the U.S. The basic attitude changed in character as it morphed from a nationalistic/imperialistic perception to a more ideological perception.

A lot of Russians who defected to the US or denounced the Soviet government were readily accepted in US society and even extolled as heroes in some cases. All during the Cold War, some of the staunchest Cold Warriors I knew always stressed that they never had anything against Russian people, but their only grudge was with the Soviet government and the communist/socialist ideology overall.

Most of the perceptions I've noticed in more recent times seem to rely heavily on associations with the Soviet past. The focus seems to be largely on Putin himself and his regime, so one can effectively oppose Putin's regime while dissociating oneself from any Russophobic aspects.

For example, if someone said they hated the Tsar in 1916, that wouldn't make them a Russophobe, since the majority of Russians by that time really hated the Tsar. A Russophile who loves the Russian people and sympathizes with their plight might likewise share their hatred of the Tsar.

 

[Ebionite]

Another gullible one who believes whatever lies of the russians.
"nazi ideology".... what joke.

There's no reason to think that you are telling the truth about it.

 

[Estro Felino]

Most of the perceptions I've noticed in more recent times seem to rely heavily on associations with the Soviet past.

which is like fearing something non-existent. Something gone...in 1991.

The focus seems to be largely on Putin himself and his regime, so one can effectively oppose Putin's regime while dissociating oneself from any Russophobic aspects.

It's not something related to the regime.
In Saudi Arabia women are treated like third class citizens and if a woman wears miniskirt and top, they jail her. They treat her as a criminal.
Something light years away from Russia.
Yet the mainstream narrative is that Putin's regime is the worst dictatorship in the world, whereas SA is fine.

So it has nothing to do with Putin.
It's unconscious Russophobia.

 

[Ebionite]

See? Yet again trying to reframe another person's position instead of putting in effort to understand it.

The term "conspiracy theorist" was originally a slur that was applied against people who didn't buy into the magic bullet theory of the assassination of John F Kennedy. Reframing is an unavoidable consequence of forming an interpretation from a wider context. In the context of this thread, hate of Putin's Russia is a function of Anglo American imperialism.