Convince me that Putin is wrong

[Shadow Wolf]

So, after extraordinary and absolutely historic interview with Putin (made by T. Carlson), I have understood that:

- In 2000 Putin had asked Clinton to join in the NATO, because he wanted perpetual peace between the West and Eastern Europe after 50 years of cold war.
But Clinton replied him that it was not possible, meaning: that Russia was not welcomed. So, as a consequence, the US are to blame for this new cold war, because they did anything to isolate, boycott and antagonize the Russian Federation.

- An array of elitist people coming from the US has wanted to colonize Ukraine and to turn it into a anti-Russian military base. They funded the Maidan coup in 2014, and they pushed the Kiev government to persecute the Russian-speaking people of Donbas in order to provoke Putin and to lure him into a trap.
That is, forcing him to invade Donbas to rescue the Donbas civilians, mercilessly attacked by the government in Kiev.

- Putin wasn't fooled by that trap, and signed the two Minsk agreements instead, which were meant to force Germany and France to be guarantors and Ukraine to respect the two self-proclaimed Donbas republics, Luhansk and Donetsk. In the meantime, Russia funded the separatists of Donbas, so they could at least defend themselves; and annexed Crimea, which had made a referendum to get out of that Inferno called Ukraine. As a consequence, the Obama administration antagonized Putin and Russia was excluded from the G8 and the Council of Europe. As a punishment.

- Despite the restless efforts of France and Germany to convince Zelenskyy to respect the Minsk agreements, Zelenskyy was expected to obey the elites of the United States, who ordered him to deceive Europeans, and not to respect the Minsk agreements. Macron went to Kiev in 2022 to be reassured, but after he returned to France, Zelenskyy surely obeying his masters overseas, said that he would not respect the Minsk agreements.

-Putin, seeing that Zelenskyy was against the Minsk agreements, had no other option than to invade. In this war, he reached Kiev to denazify it as they say, but he was persuaded to withdraw the troops to start the peace negotiations in Istanbul.
The text of the peace agreement had already been drafted: at the last moment, British PM Johnson ordered Zelenskyy not to sign it. That is why in 2022, the war continued, even if it could have been ended in Summer 2022.

- Of course the CIA blew up the two Nordstream Pipelines to boycott Putin, and to prevent him from getting money from the sale of natural gas to Germany. Money that he would have spent on the war.


This is a very, very, very serious thread, so I will be as strict as possible, by not allowing:
1) name calling towards Carlson or Putin
2) speaking of Trump . This is about Europe.
3) changing subject, going off topic
4) ad hominems

Merci beaucoup...mes chers.

Convince me you're a moral and ethical person.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I do respect you and nothing personal.However in Religious forums you are the SOLE VOICE of support for Putin.This speaks volumes.
You can always defect and come over to our side we will support you

There's a few others.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The 90% of the people here are from the US.
I guess...that is a significant detail.

No, it's not. Even others from Europe and the Middle East and Asia and South America do not side with Putin.
And I doubt your claim about Italy as you have misspoke about there as well.

 

[Estro Felino]

Convince me you're a moral and ethical person.

No, I cannot.

 

[Estro Felino]

No, it's not. Even others from Europe and the Middle East and Asia and South America do not side with Putin.
And I doubt your claim about Italy as you have misspoke about there as well.

We used to have a Italian Socialist Party, and an Italian Communist Party. Funded by Moscow.
Their supporters are still there.
They didn't change their mind about Russia.

The US have never had a Russophile party.
Hence the natural Russophobia. But it's normal.

It's not just against Putin.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No, I cannot.
You're God and I am nothing.

You're right. Saying Putin's invasion is necessary because you believe the "denazification" claims means you never will. That's like invading and bombing a city because it has some Klansmen in it. That's an extreme overreaction and can never be right or just.

We used to have a Italian Socialist Party, and an Italian Communist Party. Funded by Moscow.
Their supporters are still there.
They didn't change their mind about Russia.

The US have never had a Russophile party.
Hence the natural Russophobia. But it's normal.

It's not just against Putin.

It's not Russophobia (my electrolysist, who's office is in Beverly Hills, is Russian). Most of us hate Putin because he's a violent dictator who aggressively invades his neighbors.
And I'm sure Italy has some rotten people who support Putin and other nasty types like Hitler. Even Germany has Nazis and it's illegal there.

 

[Estro Felino]

It's not Russophobia (my electrolysist, who's office is in Beverly Hills, is Russian). Most of us hate Putin because he's a violent dictator who aggressively invades his neighbors.

With all due respect...I believe there is a bit of...Russophobia.

Because there are countries-dictatorships where women are treated like third class citizens, or better as men's property.
If they wear a miniskirt, they are jailed after five seconds.
Yet many Americans roll red carpets at them. Or rather, the Left considers them 100 times better than Russians.
So it is..bias.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The 90% of the people here are from the US.
I guess...that is a significant detail.

Just come to my country...and ask people around. Whether thy support Putin or Zely.

RF is a progressive Democrat echo chamber, and Dems have become just as big warmongers as neocon Reps are thanks to Obama and Hillary making war look "humanitarian". It hardly accurately represents the US public. Most Americans don't care about the Ukraine crap. We're too busy suffering economically to give a damn about some war that has nothing to do with us, really. Look up polls and they'll say the issue that most Americans are concerned about is the economy. What the federal government does rarely represents what Americans want or care about.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

With all due respect...I believe it actually is...Russophobia.

You also believe straight guys are a pariah here.

Because there are countries-dictatorships where women are treated like third class citizens, or better as men's property.
If they wear a miniskirt, they are jailed after five seconds.
Yet many Americans roll red carpets at them. Or rather, the Left consider them 100 times better than Russians.
So it is..bias. Russophobia.

No, just your apparent phobia of America and Americans with more mischaracterizing us.

 

[Estro Felino]

You also believe straight guys are a pariah here.

I have never said or implied that.

No, just your apparent phobia of America and Americans with more mischaracterizing us.

Absolutely not.
In my country there are several US navy bases...and I assure you so many girls here date those guys...
I don't fear any American person.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I have never said or implied that.

Do you know what pariah means?

I don't fear any American person.

You apparently don't know what phobia means either. And not being afraid, you certainly spread a lot of falsehoods even after being corrected.

 

[JIMMY12345]

With all due respect...I believe there is a bit of...Russophobia.

Because there are countries-dictatorships where women are treated like third class citizens, or better as men's property.
If they wear a miniskirt, they are jailed after five seconds.
Yet many Americans roll red carpets at them. Or rather, the Left considers them 100 times better than Russians.
So it is..bias.

A few posts from eg Trump supporters complain they have to keep their heads down.The posts from dissenting voices show the replies are mostly friendly cordial and agree to disagree.
We need more arguments as these forums will get so boring if we all agree with each other.
So left wing,Right wing whatever your views make your views heard.The moderator will sweep up untoward posts.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

So, after extraordinary and absolutely historic interview with Putin (made by T. Carlson), I have understood that:

- In 2000 Putin had asked Clinton to join in the NATO, because he wanted perpetual peace between the West and Eastern Europe after 50 years of cold war.
But Clinton replied him that it was not possible, meaning: that Russia was not welcomed. So, as a consequence, the US are to blame for this new cold war, because they did anything to isolate, boycott and antagonize the Russian Federation.

- An array of elitist people coming from the US has wanted to colonize Ukraine and to turn it into a anti-Russian military base. They funded the Maidan coup in 2014, and they pushed the Kiev government to persecute the Russian-speaking people of Donbas in order to provoke Putin and to lure him into a trap.
That is, forcing him to invade Donbas to rescue the Donbas civilians, mercilessly attacked by the government in Kiev.

- Putin wasn't fooled by that trap, and signed the two Minsk agreements instead, which were meant to force Germany and France to be guarantors and Ukraine to respect the two self-proclaimed Donbas republics, Luhansk and Donetsk. In the meantime, Russia funded the separatists of Donbas, so they could at least defend themselves; and annexed Crimea, which had made a referendum to get out of that Inferno called Ukraine. As a consequence, the Obama administration antagonized Putin and Russia was excluded from the G8 and the Council of Europe. As a punishment.

- Despite the restless efforts of France and Germany to convince Zelenskyy to respect the Minsk agreements, Zelenskyy was expected to obey the elites of the United States, who ordered him to deceive Europeans, and not to respect the Minsk agreements. Macron went to Kiev in 2022 to be reassured, but after he returned to France, Zelenskyy surely obeying his masters overseas, said that he would not respect the Minsk agreements.

-Putin, seeing that Zelenskyy was against the Minsk agreements, had no other option than to invade. In this war, he reached Kiev to denazify it as they say, but he was persuaded to withdraw the troops to start the peace negotiations in Istanbul.
The text of the peace agreement had already been drafted: at the last moment, British PM Johnson ordered Zelenskyy not to sign it. That is why in 2022, the war continued, even if it could have been ended in Summer 2022.

- Of course the CIA blew up the two Nordstream Pipelines to boycott Putin, and to prevent him from getting money from the sale of natural gas to Germany. Money that he would have spent on the war.


This is a very, very, very serious thread, so I will be as strict as possible, by not allowing:
1) name calling towards Carlson or Putin
2) speaking of Trump . This is about Europe.
3) changing subject, going off topic
4) ad hominems

Merci beaucoup...mes chers.

When are people going to learn that anything that comes out of Putin's, or his vazal's, mouths in public is nothing but sheer lies.


When he claims X, then assume the opposite of X is true.


"we won't attack ukraine!"
Proceeds to attack ukraine.

This is what these people do. They lie. And then, they lie some more.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

So I believe this anti-Russian sentiment was enormously unmotivated, since the other party wanted peace, alliance and cooperation.

They'ld be able to sell you a bridge for sure.

After all, Russophobia is the only phobia that isn't deemed as racist by the Left. Which is anthropologically interesting.

It's not phobia. It's common sense not to trust a word these people say as they are proven liars. Time and again.
It's what they do.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Putin's stated objective is to destroy the Nazi ideology that exists within Ukraine

Another gullible one who believes whatever lies of the russians.
"nazi ideology".... what joke.

Meanwhile, they (= russians) cheer when neo-nazi's in the netherlands win the election (because they are pro-russia and don't want to continue aid to ukraine)

, not to annex it.

Is that why they annexed crimea, donbass, etc?

This would be a bad joke if it wasn't serious.

 

[Estro Felino]

They'ld be able to sell you a bridge for sure.


It's not phobia. It's common sense not to trust a word these people say as they are proven liars. Time and again.
It's what they do.

But accidentally...in Europe such a thing, that is Russophobia, is less intense.
Otherwise Wilders would have never won the Dutch elections. And he will win them again.
Let's not forget what Salvini said in 2017: I prefer Putin, if I had to choose between Putin and Juncker.

Actually I should kiss the feet of all those who push for the escalation of this conflict, because they are making us win the next European elections.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Yeah, the Cold War was against the USSR. That doesn't exist anymore. We had no reason to be against the Russian Federation and if we weren't being ran into the ground by bloodthirsty, corrupt neocons and neolibs, we could've had friendly relations with them all along and great trade and energy deals. It's the same as how we needlessly have made much of the the Muslim world our enemies when we could've had great relations with them, too. Now these psychopaths have gotten us to the edge of war with not only Russia, but Iran and China, too!

Russia, Iran, China.

I invite you to go and try to live in any of them.

Good luck - you're going to need it.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

An interview of 2 hours and 5 minutes. I watched it all.

I didn't, and won't.

I have zero interest in listening to 2 hours of lying propaganda.
These people have lost any and all credibility.

Lying is there modus operandi. Nothing they say can be trusted. Literally nothing.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Russia, Iran, China.

I invite you to go and try to live in any of them.

Good luck - you're going to need it.

Generally, I think the domestic situation in any given country is relevant only in highly specific contexts to whether another country's foreign policy toward it is justified.

The US backed a coup in Iran that would enable the current theocracy to be established, and, along with its allies (mainly the UK), has been responsible for more innocent deaths and sponsorship of dictatorships abroad in the last several decades than China and Iran combined.

Russia has a troubling track record of its own when it comes to foreign policy, especially during its USSR days. Even if it had more domestic freedom and a higher standard of living, that record wouldn't change.

 

[Debater Slayer]

RF is a progressive Democrat echo chamber, [...]

I see a lot of disagreement in political threads, and a lot of liberals and leftists here criticize the Democratic Party too. I don't identify as a Democrat or progressive, myself.

RF doesn't seem to me an echo chamber considering the above, since I associate echo chambers with uniform opinions, no disagreement, refusal to debate, etc.