Convince me that Putin is wrong

[Estro Felino]

So, after extraordinary and absolutely historic interview with Putin (made by T. Carlson), I have understood that:

- In 2000 Putin had asked Clinton to join in the NATO, because he wanted perpetual peace between the West and Eastern Europe after 50 years of cold war.
But Clinton replied him that it was not possible, meaning: that Russia was not welcomed. So, as a consequence, the US are to blame for this new cold war, because they did anything to isolate, boycott and antagonize the Russian Federation.

- An array of elitist people coming from the US has wanted to colonize Ukraine and to turn it into a anti-Russian military base. They funded the Maidan coup in 2014, and they pushed the Kiev government to persecute the Russian-speaking people of Donbas in order to provoke Putin and to lure him into a trap.
That is, forcing him to invade Donbas to rescue the Donbas civilians, mercilessly attacked by the government in Kiev.

- Putin wasn't fooled by that trap, and signed the two Minsk agreements instead, which were meant to force Germany and France to be guarantors and Ukraine to respect the two self-proclaimed Donbas republics, Luhansk and Donetsk. In the meantime, Russia funded the separatists of Donbas, so they could at least defend themselves; and annexed Crimea, which had made a referendum to get out of that Inferno called Ukraine. As a consequence, the Obama administration antagonized Putin and Russia was excluded from the G8 and the Council of Europe. As a punishment.

- Despite the restless efforts of France and Germany to convince Zelenskyy to respect the Minsk agreements, Zelenskyy was expected to obey the elites of the United States, who ordered him to deceive Europeans, and not to respect the Minsk agreements. Macron went to Kiev in 2022 to be reassured, but after he returned to France, Zelenskyy surely obeying his masters overseas, said that he would not respect the Minsk agreements.

-Putin, seeing that Zelenskyy was against the Minsk agreements, had no other option than to invade. In this war, he reached Kiev to denazify it as they say, but he was persuaded to withdraw the troops to start the peace negotiations in Istanbul.
The text of the peace agreement had already been drafted: at the last moment, British PM Johnson ordered Zelenskyy not to sign it. That is why in 2022, the war continued, even if it could have been ended in Summer 2022.

- Of course the CIA blew up the two Nordstream Pipelines to boycott Putin, and to prevent him from getting money from the sale of natural gas to Germany. Money that he would have spent on the war.


This is a very, very, very serious thread, so I will be as strict as possible, by not allowing:
1) name calling towards Carlson or Putin
2) speaking of Trump . This is about Europe.
3) changing subject, going off topic
4) ad hominems

Merci beaucoup...mes chers.

 

[Ebionite]

Burisma is another piece of the puzzle. It relates to energy/gas, the Bidens, and the impeachment of Voldemort (he-who-shall-not-be-named).

 

[Ebionite]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1756118681422274745

 

[Tamino]

Is it considered name-calling, if I call Mr. Putin a power-hungry autocrat?
And are we calling it a war in this thread, or do I need to call it a "special operation"?
Asking for a friend...

 

[Estro Felino]

Is it considered name-calling, if I call Mr. Putin a power-hungry autocrat?

It doesn't address the questions in the OP. So that's why I said that name-calling avoids addressing them.

And are we calling it a war in this thread, or do I need to call it a "special operation"?
Asking for a friend...

It's a war. I used the word war.

 

[Tamino]

It doesn't address the questions in the OP. So that's why I said that name-calling avoids addressing them.

Now you're avoiding the question. I just want an example of what you'd consider name calling before I write an answer. Taking this seriously and not writing sarcastic is challenging...

 

[Estro Felino]

Now you're avoiding the question. I just want an example of what you'd consider name calling before I write an answer. Taking this seriously and not writing sarcastic is challenging...

Of course that's name calling.

 

[RestlessSoul]

"Convince me..." is a futile challenge, particularly on forums, where almost everyone arrives here already convinced.

If you want an insight into what life is like for ordinary people in Putin's Russia, you might try reading "I Love Russia", a collection of essays by the journalist Elena Kostyushenko. It'll break your heart; I was particularly moved by the story "The War; How it Broke Through the Soil and Blossomed" written in March 2022.

The courage and compassion the writer sees in others, and which radiates through her writing, may also inspire you.

 

[Debater Slayer]

During the Cold War, the far right in the US and its Western allies was largely anti-Russian, and now large segments of the far right in both are largely apologetic toward Putin and his imperialist war on Ukraine—and sometimes claim to try to see the "Russian perspective" on the invasion while doing so.

How the times have changed...

 

[Estro Felino]

During the Cold War, the far right in the US and its Western allies was largely anti-Russian, and now large segments of the far right in both are largely apologetic toward Putin and his imperialist war on Ukraine—and sometimes claim to try to see the "Russian perspective" on the invasion while doing so.

How the times have changed...

Interesting. But when the Cold War ended, Yeltsin tried to create an alliance with the US.
And Putin asked Clinton to join the NATO. He was told: no, you cannot. You're not welcome.

So I believe this anti-Russian sentiment was enormously unmotivated, since the other party wanted peace, alliance and cooperation.

After all, Russophobia is the only phobia that isn't deemed as racist by the Left. Which is anthropologically interesting.

 

[Estro Felino]

"Convince me..." is a futile challenge, particularly on forums, where almost everyone arrives here already convinced.

If you want an insight into what life is like for ordinary people in Putin's Russia, you might try reading "I Love Russia", a collection of essays by the journalist Elena Kostyushenko. It'll break your heart; I was particularly moved by the story "The War; How it Broke Through the Soil and Blossomed" written in March 2022.

The courage and compassion the writer sees in others, and which radiates through her writing, may also inspire you.

As Fallaci said, truth is like surgical instruments. It hurts, but it heals.

 

[Ebionite]

Putin and his imperialist war on Ukraine

How is preserving a buffer state an imperialist war?

 

[Estro Felino]

How is preserving a buffer state an imperialist war?

Russia is not afraid of Europeans. She is afraid of the USA.
So, Ukraine is already in the Council of Europe. If she joins the EU, Russia will have nothing to fear any more: after all, the Baltics, Scandinavia border with Russia...and they are not buffer states because they are in the EU.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Interesting. But when the Cold War ended, Yeltsin tried to create an alliance with the US.
And Putin asked Clinton to join the NATO. He was told: no, you cannot. You're not welcome.

So I believe this anti-Russian sentiment was enormously unmotivated, since the other party wanted peace, alliance and cooperation.

I haven't yet looked enough into Putin's claims to decide whether I believe his account is reflective of how things actually happened, but either way, even if he was denied NATO membership, that doesn't give him a free pass to invade a sovereign country.

After all, Russophobia is the only phobia that isn't deemed as racist by the Left. Which is anthropologically interesting.

No, large segments of the "Left [sic]" do tend to mind various forms of racism, such as eugenics, support for Mussolini, and fascism. I'm pretty sure you're familiar with how the average leftist would respond to any of those.

It's also not Russophobic to oppose a war of aggression that happens to have been started by Russian leaders. Otherwise opposing any war would also be "racist" against people of the same ethnicity as the warmongers.

 

[Altfish]

And Putin asked Clinton to join the NATO. He was told: no, you cannot. You're not welcome.

Have you a link to that?

I understood that Russia asked to join but wanted fast track entry, which was refused

Ex-Nato head says Putin wanted to join alliance early on in his rule

George Robertson recalls Russian president did not want to wait in line with ‘countries that don’t matter’

www.theguardian.com

 

[Debater Slayer]

How is preserving a buffer state an imperialist war?

Russia is not "preserving a buffer state"; it has invaded and destroyed large parts of it. Doing so has only solidified Ukraine's case to join NATO in order to protect itself from Russia's imperialism.

 

[Ebionite]

Russia is not "preserving a buffer state";

It's preserving a buffer state because it was a buffer state before and Putin's stated objective is to destroy the Nazi ideology that exists within Ukraine, not to annex it.

 

[Estro Felino]

I haven't yet looked enough into Putin's claims to decide whether I believe his account is reflective of how things actually happened, but either way, even if he was denied NATO membership, that doesn't give him a free pass to invade a sovereign country.

Of course not. It doesn't. I never justified the special military operation, as they call it. It just says, that looking back, the United States are to blame for denying him the possibility of a rapprochement. And Russia was willing to join the NATO: the NATO was born to counter the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union collapsed, so the Russians wanted to join the new alliance. As they joined the G8, the Council of Europe and so on.

But I believe there are some élites in America who consider the NATO just a tool to isolate Russia, surround her, and conquer her. As a prey.

No, large segments of the "Left [sic]" do tend to mind other forms of racism, such as eugenics, support for Mussolini, and fascism. I'm pretty sure you're familiar with how the average leftist would respond to any of those.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Estro Felino]

Have you a link to that?

I understood that Russia asked to join but wanted fast track entry, which was refused

Ex-Nato head says Putin wanted to join alliance early on in his rule

George Robertson recalls Russian president did not want to wait in line with ‘countries that don’t matter’

www.theguardian.com

Absolutely not.
Putin in the interview said that he wanted to make things very gradually and slowly.
This is not absolutely true, what The Guardian says.

 

[Ebionite]

Russia is not afraid of Europeans. She is afraid of the USA.
So, Ukraine is already in the Council of Europe. If she joins the EU, Russia will have nothing to fear any more: after all, the Baltics, Scandinavia border with Russia...and they are not buffer states because they are in the EU.

I mean a buffer state against NATO. Economic sanctions are not much of threat for Putin.