Convergence Of Signs

[Subduction Zone]

Perhaps you can tell us what DOES make a Christian. You probably think you’re one. Does a Christian deny facts? Do they misrepresent knowledge? Can they reject the End Times and Rapture interpretations?

As we observe Christians are a broad category from liberals to extremists. They disagree on a bast number of issues from social justice to morality. So no one really knows why Hitler can’t be a Christian when the definition is so loose.

Yup. And still today you will see churches and individuals claim that some are "Not really Christian™

 

[InChrist]

Nope, that is a No True Scotsman Fallacy. You almost certainly were a Christian through all of your transformations. You were just shopping for the right brand for you. And one can come to some very different beliefs based upon what verses one chooses and how literally or not one reads the Bible.

No, wasn’t shopping. I was blind, clueless until I was born again and delivered from darkness into the light of Christ; just like Paul (though not as dramatic) and John Newton who wrote Amazing Grace.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this point big time. There is no way I would ever consider Hitler to be a Christian. I’m sure he is in the place of eternal damnation or outer darkness, not in heaven. Being a Christian has certain biblical criteria as with any other calling or profession. One may claim to be an electrician, but if they are just stringing wires together any which way without following wiring protocol and instructions with the result that the building burns down, then they are not a legitimate electrician.

I never said or implied that he would go to heaven. Though conceivably he could according to the Bible. No, he is probably in the same place all of us will go to.

 

[F1fan]

Yup. And still today you will see churches and individuals claim that some are "Not really Christian™

Which is self-serving, as if denying other types of Christians are invalid they imply they are authentic. What’s the actual definition of a True Christian? They are vague about it.

I can understand trying to disassociate from Hitler but what about other Nazis? What the KKK who claim to be a Christian organization? All these examples should pressure a believer to be truthful with themselves and be careful to avoid dogma that rejects fact snd knowledge. But we see they don’t and claim to be authentic. That acceptance of dogma is a negative strike against Christianity as a whole.

 

[InChrist]

What exactly have you submitted to?

What specific teachings are you referring to?

Would you say that Christians who don’t believe in the Rapture have departed from the Bible? How about those who accept evolution and reject what Genesis says?

No. It’s abusive to tell children that the end is coming and will result in terrible consequences for many including friends and family. No doubt this disturbs adults as well but they can decide to ignore this bad news from fundamentalist Christians.

I find it negligent that people in the 21st century still interpret the Bible literally.

I trust and submit my life to the Savior Jesus Christ. I’m not going to say what specific teachings one must adhere to because once a person places their trust in Jesus and live in relationship with Him, He is the One who will guide and lead them into understanding His Word and progressively becoming more Christlike.
Clearly, someone like Hitler wasn’t demonstrating he was submitting to Christ. On the contrary, his behavior demonstrated hatred toward God’s loved, chosen people.

It’s not abuse to tell children Jesus is coming back one day, maybe in their lifetime, to take them to heaven; a beautiful place with no more pain or sadness. That is not a terrible thing, it’s a wonderful, hopeful expectation.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I trust and submit my life to the Savior Jesus Christ. I’m not going to say what specific teachings one must adhere to because once a person places their trust in Jesus and live in relationship with Him, He is the One who will guide and lead them into understanding His Word and progressively becoming more Christlike.
Clearly, someone like Hitler wasn’t demonstrating he was submitting to Christ. On the contrary, his behavior demonstrated hatred toward God’s loved, chosen people.

It’s not abuse to tell children Jesus is coming back one day, maybe in their lifetime, to take them to heaven; a beautiful place with no more pain or sadness. That is not a terrible thing, it’s a wonderful, hopeful expectation.

Your heaven cannot exist.

Tell me, would you be happy in heaven if everyone one that you knew was doomed to hell? What if half of the people that you knew were doomed to hell? Or even just your nearest and dearest? I do not think that such a person could be a very decent person.

 

[InChrist]

Which is self-serving, as if denying other types of Christians are invalid they imply they are authentic. What’s the actual definition of a True Christian? They are vague about it.

I can understand trying to disassociate from Hitler but what about other Nazis? What the KKK who claim to be a Christian organization? All these examples should pressure a believer to be truthful with themselves and be careful to avoid dogma that rejects fact snd knowledge. But we see they don’t and claim to be authentic. That acceptance of dogma is a negative strike against Christianity as a whole.

Well, the scriptures do speak a lot about having discernment, plus there are all kinds of warnings about false teachers, false doctrines, and behavior which are not fruits of the Spirit. I think if one uses God’s word to test a group like the KKK or any other group claiming to be Christian, it can be determined whether their ideas/actions line up or not.

Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.
1 Thessalonians 5:21-22

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
Galatians 5:22-24

For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord.
Ephesians 5:9-10

 

[F1fan]

I trust and submit my life to the Savior Jesus Christ.

What does that mean?

I’m not going to say what specific teachings one must adhere to because once a person places their trust in Jesus and live in relationship with Him, He is the One who will guide and lead them into understanding His Word and progressively becoming more Christlike.

That sounds like anything goes. So if you won’t cite any specifics how can you reject anyone else and their opinion, including Hitler?

Clearly, someone like Hitler wasn’t demonstrating he was submitting to Christ. On the contrary, his behavior demonstrated hatred toward God’s loved, chosen people.

How can you know? He believed he was special and entitled to lead Germany to destiny. That’s typical Christian attitude. Did you know he wasn’t the one to come up with the Final Solution? It was a group of Nazis who were Christians.

It’s not abuse to tell children Jesus is coming back one day, maybe in their lifetime, to take them to heaven; a beautiful place with no more pain or sadness. That is not a terrible thing, it’s a wonderful, hopeful expectation.

First this isn’t factual. And telling children things like this and not admitting it is just belief is abuse. I understand many Christians treat their beliefs as factual and absolute but that misconception is another strike against it. Any religion that doesn’t allow believers to prioritize facts over dogma can be dangerous.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well, the scriptures do speak a lot about having discernment, plus there are all kinds of warnings about false teachers, false doctrines, and behavior which are not fruits of the Spirit. I think if one uses God’s word to test a group like the KKK or any other group claiming to be Christian, it can be determined whether their ideas/actions line up or not.

Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.
1 Thessalonians 5:21-22

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
Galatians 5:22-24

For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord.
Ephesians 5:9-10

It warns you not to follow those people. And the Bible is for once right in that. The Bible also tell you not to judge. So don't follow the Hitlers of the world. But if you follow your holy book you won't judge them either. Hypothetically even the worst of them could have "Come to Jesus" moment at the end of their lives and be saved. Christianity is not about justice, which is actually a flaw with the religion. It has a false sense of justice that leads to an unjust God. But it is your religion so you should go by its rules.

 

[InChrist]

Your heaven cannot exist.

Tell me, would you be happy in heaven if everyone one that you knew was doomed to hell? What if half of the people that you knew were doomed to hell? Or even just your nearest and dearest? I do not think that such a person could be a very decent person.

I may not fully understand how heaven will be completely happy; no tears or sadness, but I do know it will be. More than that, I know that God gives every single person multiple opportunities to come to Him, know Him and therefore are welcome in heaven. Those who are not in heaven, won’t be there by their own choice and refusal. God’s desire is that none should perish, but all would have eternal life with Him. Now, I think it’s terribly that anyone would reject the love of God, including family or friends of mine. I don’t know how God will remedy those feelings in the heavenly state, but I trust He will.
But what are you saying? Should I reject God because others do?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I may not fully understand how heaven will be completely happy; no tears or sadness, but I do know it will be. More than that, I know that God gives every single person multiple opportunities to come to Him, know Him and therefore are welcome in heaven. Those who are not in heaven, won’t be there by their own choice and refusal. God’s desire is that none should perish, but all would have eternal life with Him. Now, I think it’s terribly that anyone would reject the love of God, including family or friends of mine. I don’t know how God will remedy those feelings in the heavenly state, but I trust He will.
But what are you saying? Should I reject God because others do?

Now you are abusing the word "know". There is nothing wrong with using the word "believe". But if you cannot explain it then by definition you do not know it. Knowledge is demonstrable. You may have a strong belief but that is not knowledge.

 

[Audie]

No, Hitler was not a Christian. Being baptized or using Christian language does not make one a Christian. If anything, Hitler was a forerunner of the coming final Antichrist who will claim to be the ultimate Christian; Christ, exalting himself as god. Hitler embodied this spirit of antichrist. Below is an informative article outlining the evolution of Liberal Protestantism which led to the German Christian Movement encompassing ideas and beliefs diametrically opposed to the biblical teachings of the scriptures.


“In looking back at the theology that marked the Modern Era, it becomes apparent that era ended with the Holocaust. Most historians conclude that the Holocaust was the lid on its coffin. After all, the Modern Era failed to lead humanity to a higher level but instead brought it to the depths of degradation. And Liberal Protestantism, which rejected the foundational beliefs of Christianity and instead embraced Hitler’s ideology, was part and parcel of that failure. Richard Harries, Bishop of Oxford, in his popular work After the Evil—Christianity and Judaism in the Shadow of the Holocaust, points out that Hitler’s ideology “was not only not Christian, it was anti- Christian.”16

Though Hitler used Christian jargon to spout his venom, his actions opposed the teachings of both the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament.”

Was Hitler a Christian? - Jews for Jesus

Did Hitler and his followers carry out a theology that is Christian at its roots?

jewsforjesus.org

Every Christian who is out of step with you
is finessed via your excommunication?

If he'd been a bit better artist and stayed in Vuenna
he'd be OK as a christian.

 

[sun rise]

Why, in your view does a person have to be a "skeptic"
to understand that "flood" is just a story?

Some stories can be based on actual events that have turned into legends and myths.

See, for example, cargo cults. Real events were turned into a religious cult and idols made of planes to bring back the goodies that were once delivered. It's a truly classic example of how natural phenomenon can be turned into a religion by those who lack sufficient background to understand what is going on.

Also, it can't be proven, of course, unless a bit of chariot is found in the right place, but there was a finding the the story of Moses crossing the red (actually reed in proper translation) could have been based on Moses taking advantage of a natural occurring phenomenon, a wind setdown.

“The place I picked is not at the Red Sea proper, it’s at the north end of the Suez Canal in one of the shallow lagoons along the Mediterranean Sea.” As Drews points out, the term Yam Suf, a biblical term used in Exodus, means a marshy area filled with reeds. This is the same area where a British general named Alexander Tulloch witnessed a similar wind set-down event in 1882.

“He observed a strong east wind blow all night long, and in the morning the water had completely disappeared,” says Drews. “The lake was blown seven kilometers to the west.”

I'm comfortable assuming that the Bible story was based on someone originally taking advantage of a natural phenomenon which wound up being written as the use of magical powers.

 

[Audie]

I may not fully understand how heaven will be completely happy; no tears or sadness, but I do know it will be. More than that, I know that God gives every single person multiple opportunities to come to Him, know Him and therefore are welcome in heaven. Those who are not in heaven, won’t be there by their own choice and refusal. God’s desire is that none should perish, but all would have eternal life with Him. Now, I think it’s terribly that anyone would reject the love of God, including family or friends of mine. I don’t know how God will remedy those feelings in the heavenly state, but I trust He will.
But what are you saying? Should I reject God because others do?

As ever, claiming to know things you cannot
possibly know.

Wheres the " faith" we hear so much about?

 

[InChrist]

What does that mean?

That sounds like anything goes. So if you won’t cite any specifics how can you reject anyone else and their opinion, including Hitler?

How can you know? He believed he was special and entitled to lead Germany to destiny. That’s typical Christian attitude. Did you know he wasn’t the one to come up with the Final Solution? It was a group of Nazis who were Christians.

First this isn’t factual. And telling children things like this and not admitting it is just belief is abuse. I understand many Christians treat their beliefs as factual and absolute but that misconception is another strike against it. Any religion that doesn’t allow believers to prioritize facts over dogma can be dangerous.

Submitting to Christ means, first acknowledging reality, I think, that one is a sinner in need of a Savior. Once a person sincerely comes to this realization and trusts Jesus for forgiveness and salvation, then everything changes. The focus becomes seeking Jesus for wisdom and direction in living for Him, instead of selfishly.
Again, Hitler demonstrated that he was serving himself, not serving God. You said it yourself, “ He believed he was special and entitled”. That’s not a Christian or biblical mentality, that’s an anti-Christ mindset. Jesus Christ demonstrated humility. Hitler thought he was god and exalted himself as god.

 

[Audie]

Some stories can be based on actual events that have turned into legends and myths.

See, for example, cargo cults. Real events were turned into a religious cult and idols made of planes to bring back the goodies that were once delivered. It's a truly classic example of how natural phenomenon can be turned into a religion by those who lack sufficient background to understand what is going on.

Also, it can't be proven, of course, unless a bit of chariot is found in the right place, but there was a finding the the story of Moses crossing the red (actually reed in proper translation) could have been based on Moses taking advantage of a natural occurring phenomenon, a wind setdown.

“The place I picked is not at the Red Sea proper, it’s at the north end of the Suez Canal in one of the shallow lagoons along the Mediterranean Sea.” As Drews points out, the term Yam Suf, a biblical term used in Exodus, means a marshy area filled with reeds. This is the same area where a British general named Alexander Tulloch witnessed a similar wind set-down event in 1882.

“He observed a strong east wind blow all night long, and in the morning the water had completely disappeared,” says Drews. “The lake was blown seven kilometers to the west.”

I'm comfortable assuming that the Bible story was based on someone originally taking advantage of a natural phenomenon which wound up being written as the use of magical powers.

All very well but why, in your view,
does a person have to be a " skeptic"
to comprehend that there was no
Ark or world wide flood ?

 

[Audie]

Submitting to Christ means, first acknowledging reality, I think, that one is a sinner in needa of a Savior. Once a person sincerely comes to this realization and trusts Jesus for forgiveness and salvation, then everything changes. The focus becomes seeking Jesus for wisdom and direction in living for Him, instead of selfishly.
Again, Hitler demonstrated that he was serving himself, not serving God. You said it yourself, “ He believed he was special and entitled”. That’s not a Christian or biblical mentality, that’s an anti-Christ mindset. Jesus Christ demonstrated humility. Hitler thought he was god and exalted himself as god.

Acknowledging reality is plainly not a
primary skill for you.
As often noted elsewhere.

 

[InChrist]

As ever, claiming to know things you cannot
possibly know.

Wheres the " faith" we hear so much about?

Obviously, I cannot, nor could not know these things were it not for God’s revelation through the written word, in language, given so humanity could have some knowledge and understanding.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:1

 

[InChrist]

Acknowledging reality is plainly not a
primary skill for you.
As often noted elsewhere.

We’ll see at some point what is real or not. I’m very much at peace with my understanding of reality.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

There is a scripture that states, "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart" (Jeremiah 29:13). Well, I genuinely believed in God and sought him with all my heart for forty years, but I never found him. I did, however, find disappointment, sadness, and a constant feeling of hopelessness because I was left all alone to deal with the abuse, bullying, and harassment on my own while I was growing up. After forty years of looking for God, I finally realized that either he doesn't actually exist, or if he does, he obviously doesn't give a damn about me. I realized that if he exists, then he obviously doesn't give a damn that I suffered abuse while I was growing up or that I've dealt with PTSD because of the severe abuse, trauma, and constant bullying I suffered while growing up. I eventually learned how to deal with the PTSD on my own, and fortunately for me, my beloved husband has been supportive of me every step of the way for the past 30 and 1/2 years. It took me thirty years to realize that believing in God was an emotional crutch for me and a waste of my time. Sadly, I wasted the majority of my life believing in him, only to end up empty-handed, angry, and depressed. I finally found the courage to remove the rose-colored glasses and face my reality, which was that I had been ignorant and gullible to trust in God for so long and had mistakenly assumed he would be my heavenly father. I eventually learned how to care for myself and my family without feeling the need to rely on my faith in God.

I realized that I don't need or want God in my life and that I'm far better off emotionally without believing in and having faith in God. If God exists, then I don't believe that he is worthy of my respect and reverence, let alone my love and worship. I certainly don't believe he is merciful and just, or a heavenly father who loves us or his followers unconditionally. I've said this before, and I'd like to say it again: as a former Christian and survivor of childhood abuse, I see God as a narcissistic and abusive father who only "loves" his children when they do or say precisely what he wants. And his children hope that if they don't make him angry, he won't hurt them, but they're unsure because he has a violent temper and is known to viciously lash out when he is angry. So if they disobey him and upset him, then there will be hell for them to pay. That isn't a healthy relationship founded on unconditional love and respect, but rather on consistent fear and mistrust. It's an abusive relationship. According to the Bible, God is capable of hatred in addition to wrath and jealousy and has committed global genocide. Quite frankly, I don't believe that anyone should derive their understanding of morality, love, or justice from the Bible.

Finally, I decided to share what I wrote in another thread on a related topic.

In my case, I have reason to reject belief in the biblical God because I was a very devout Christian for 30 years and genuinely believed in God for years before that, but I never experienced anything that other Christians claimed happened to them, even though we believed in the same God. For example, they claimed to experience peace and joy in their lives because they believed in God, while I, on the other hand, felt nothing but sadness and despair during the years I was a devout Christian. To be honest, I only began to feel peace and joy in my life after I renounced my belief in God and abandoned Christianity. Have you ever heard of the expression "playing church?" That's exactly what I did. I went through the motions and pretended to experience God, as other Christians claimed they had, but I never did. I tried really hard to experience God, but I felt such hopelessness whenever I tried and failed.

It took me a long time to admit that I had been pretending to experience God's presence in my life when I never genuinely did. I understood I had to be honest with myself and quit pretending. I realized that I was wasting my life by pretending to feel the presence of God in my life when he either doesn't really exist or, if he does, obviously doesn't give a damn about me. A couple of years ago, I did a lot of soul-searching and had to ask myself why I was so committed to clinging to the false hope that I had in believing in God. I realized that believing in God was an emotional crutch for me. I also recognized that if I was ever going to recover emotionally and change my life for the better, I needed to let go of that crutch. My mental health and emotional well-being have significantly improved since I disavowed my belief in God and Christianity. In retrospect, it was one of the best decisions I've ever made for myself. While I don't regret my decision, I wish that I had made it years earlier so that I could have avoided decades of depression and emotional turmoil.