Convergence Of Signs

[F1fan]

It's not just Christians. We have Buddhists who don't follow the path of Buddha and so forth. This to me is the time Muhammad prophecised would come Sayings of The Prophet | Islamic Values

And Baha'i, who seem to be among the worst and most arrogant. When believers f ay stripe post claims about how absolute and perfect their beliefs are, themselves by extension, they will be questioned as well. The funny thing is how easy believers make criticizing them. They make claims that are easy to critique and refute. I suspect some use forums as pressure for their devotion, and as they defend their beliefs they feel more firm in their committment by fighting for it. Of course, non-believers "just don't get it".

 

[Audie]

And Baha'i, who seem to be among the worst and most arrogant. When believers f ay stripe post claims about how absolute and perfect their beliefs are, themselves by extension, they will be questioned as well. The funny thing is how easy believers make criticizing them. They make claims that are easy to critique and refute. I suspect some use forums as pressure for their devotion, and as they defend their beliefs they feel more firm in their committment by fighting for it. Of course, non-believers "just don't get it".

I get it just fine. Never heard of
some of these " faiths" before
hut the ridiculous claims made and
the arrogant- ignorant and illogical
defense of these faiths make a very bad
impression.

 

[sun rise]

Almost like religion doesn't deliver on its promise.

It does for some. I've met such people. But in this era it does not deliver for many. And that's being recognized as traditional religious institutions are fading and being replaced by "spiritual but not religious" and "nothing in particular".

 

[Audie]

It does for some. I've met such people. But in this era it does not deliver for many. And that's being recognized as traditional religious institutions are fading and being replaced by "spiritual but not religious" and "nothing in particular".

Some aspects of some religions help some
people to some degree.
Nobody gets miracle cures though, and
nobody reports cashing in on eternal reward.

So I'd say in general, more sophisticated
social programs, minus the flim flam,
mega " church" rec centers, hollow promises,
etc and blah would be more sensible, effective,
cost less and tell fewer lies.

 

[InChrist]

Reality doesn't seem to mean real in your use of the word. In reality it means what is true, real, and verifiable. Religious concepts seldom meet the standard of REAL. Look at the rest of your sentence.

The only reason to believe this is to believe what we are told by other Christians. There are no facts that suggest this is true in reality. It can be true to your religious beliefs, but as we know religious beliefs don't rely on facts, or what is real. The net result of your claims here is that reality is illusion. Ironically atheists who actually acknowledge reality are more qualified to be Christian than believers.

So the question is why you use language that is clearly inconsistent with reality, but you are trying to claim that your belief is based on reality. Would that be for self-deception? How elese can a believer justify beliefs that are contrary to fact and science?

There is no sincere person who would believe in such an implausible idea. Unless you consider the 9-11 hijackers as being sincere in their beliefs, this kind of irrational religious committment is only working to deceive the self about irrational religious ideas.

Yet my questioning is why so many Christians act with cruelty and indifference to suffering. With all the idealism I hear Christians claim for themselves why are so many mean and indifferent? It's obvious the belief in Jesus guarantees no moral advantage. The individual has to depend on their own moral wits to actually be moral. I suggest this is why atheists are able to explain why they have certain moral views better than most believers can. I asked you about the immorality of exposing children to ideas they can't understand and may cause distress and you didn't get it. This is the moral dilemma I see with so many believers, you value your dogma more than children. To my mind that itself is immoral. No child, or humans, is worth less than any ideas, including ideas about jesus. We see whta hapvens when a society led by dogma values ideas over people, and that is how the Holocaust was justified. The idea was worth more than the Jews. The Jews had to be exterminated to keep the ideas alive. That is a moral failure no matter what the idea.

Do you really think Christians serve God, and not yourselves as believers? Look how I references self-service in my posts. Dogmatists seldom see beyond their dogma. That renders these humasn as little more than obedient ghosts, not capable of any moral judgment. This is how Christians could murder Jews so easily during the day, then go home to their families at night. That Jews did not celebrate Christmas made it easier for the murderers to kill on Christmas eve, and then celebrate Christmas the day after.

And look at how Christians see themselves as "saved". The rest of us? Damned to hell.

Yet look at you rejecting what science concludes via facts and an objective method. Why can't you be humble like Jesus? The pride of interpreting Genesis literally when even Jews don't is something you need to explain to us, on your thread.

Only because he got people to follow his bad ideas. How many bad ideas are you following from Christianity that isn't what Jesus taught? You are treating these Christian leaders as God. You said a Christian needs to acknowledge reality, yet you fail at that in so many ways.

Okay, so you don’t like and are obviously quite angry that there are hypocrites and abusers who claim the name of Christ. I am, too. I have personally known authoritarian manipulators and very controlling abusers who know and can quote Bible verses from memory better than me. Problem is they quote them out of context for their own self-serving purposes and use the Bible, even God as a weapon against others. Nevertheless, this kind of behavior is exposed in the NT, as well as the OT.

Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. Matthew 7:15

It is clear from the scriptures that there are those who present themselves as “Christians” who are NOT Christians, rather they are false; ravenous wolves.

Jesus also clearly said
“You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so,every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.”
Matthew 7:16-20

I am sure you capable of getting past your emotionalism enough to understand this concept and REALITY. There are fakes, imposters who will use anything for their own gain, including Christianity. Hitler, KKK
or others who wantonly murdered innocent people were/are not Christians. There are numerous examples of real Christians who have stood against such evil.

“We Conservative German church leaders such as Bonhoeffer publicly denounced Hitler and even plotted his assassination. As a result, he and many in the Confessing Church were executed. But the resistance was not limited to theologians and church leaders.

Yad Vashem contains the records of over 18,000 individuals deemed “Righteous Gentiles.” These men and women risked their own safety and that of their families to oppose the Nazis and save Jewish lives. One of the most well known among them was Corrie ten Boom, whose story was told in the book The Hiding Place. She and her family held to a conservative Christian theology and their faith led them to risk hiding Jews in their home. Eventually they ended up in a concentration camp. Others, like Diet Eman, joined the underground and fought in the Dutch resistance, risking their lives to stop Hitler and save our people from his evil.”

Was Hitler a Christian? - Jews for Jesus

Did Hitler and his followers carry out a theology that is Christian at its roots?

jewsforjesus.org

You can point all you want to those who tarnish the name of Christ and those who have committed crimes under the banner of Christianity and I will agree. But I will not agree that those who have done so are true representatives of Christ at all, because their bad fruit says otherwise.

You are welcome to start another thread on this topic if the subject is so important to you. I’m not going to continue getting off the OP of this thread with you. Besides, I thought this was a discussion section, rather than an area of debate or place to attack or misrepresent Christians and/or theological thoughts.

 

[Bthoth]

God did not write the Bible.

100% agree

The most we can say is that the books of the Prophets were inspired by God, but since they were written by men, not even by Prophets, there is a lot of room for error and even twisting of the truth, to say what they hoped for.

Inspirations come from many things.

Yes people make mistakes and often time changes to religions comes from authoritative inspiration like king james reformation

 

[Bthoth]

I believe that everyone is capable of knowing what is real, the truth, but that does not mean they can use that capability.

About like using the bible. Lots of wisdom but many get sidetracked with misinformation.

How do you think people can know what is real, the truth?

Usability, performance, testing. For example many spirits can be made from water, even wines.

 

[sun rise]

To go back to the thread OP About four-in-ten U.S. adults believe humanity is ‘living in the end times’ is a study I stumbled upon. The chart below is interesting to me. The race disparity is not something I would have expected. The "nothing in particular" people have 30% thinking we're in the end times.

And more to the point:

 

[Trailblazer]

About like using the bible. Lots of wisdom but many get sidetracked with misinformation.

The Bible contains lots of wisdom but as you said many get sidetracked with misinformation and that is very problematic.
I don't think the Bible is the only scripture that is a source of wisdom and truth. The Bible contains spiritual truths that are eternal, so they will apply for all of time, but the remainder of the Bible was not intended by God to apply to the age in which we are now living. It was written for a former age.

 

[Bthoth]

The Bible contains lots of wisdom but as you said many get sidetracked with misinformation and that is very problematic.

100% agreement

I don't think the Bible is the only scripture that is a source of wisdom and truth.

100% agreement

The Bible contains spiritual truths that are eternal, so they will apply for all of time,

Yet, many others have many quality addition that can be considered eternal.

but the remainder of the Bible was not intended by God to apply to the age in which we are now living. It was written for a former age.

Man created the bible and the assortment of books written by the many authors. HINT: Keep a focus on reality over the beliefs.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yet, many others have many quality addition that can be considered eternal.

That's true. The scriptures of all the great religions contain eternal spiritual truths.

Man created the bible and the assortment of books written by the many authors. HINT: Keep a focus on reality over the beliefs.

I agree. The many books and many authors is a cause for concern, at least for those of us who question the authenticity of the Bible.

 

[InChrist]

That's true. The scriptures of all the great religions contain eternal spiritual truths.

I agree. The many books and many authors is a cause for concern, at least for those of us who question the authenticity of the Bible.

Actually, I think the many books and authors of the biblical scriptures are a testimony that God has inspired it. The Bible is unique among religious texts. It stands alone; having over 40 different human authors all from a wide variety of backgrounds, in three different languages, in different locations, over approximately a 1500 year time period. Yet, it’s amazing to realize the entire canon of Scripture shares a common theme; God’s salvation of humanity, pointing to a central character, the Messiah/ Savior Jesus Christ.
My perspective is that only God could have orchestrated the collection of books known as the Bible. The Creator God who works through history, who is outside of time, who knows the beginning and the end, the God who has given humanity revelation of Himself, our need of a Savior, and of future events to come and eternity ahead.

 

[Bthoth]

That's true. The scriptures of all the great religions contain eternal spiritual truths.

again, I agree.

I agree. The many books and many authors is a cause for concern, at least for those of us who question the authenticity of the Bible.

I have no concern as overcoming religious beliefs has never been hard for the honest mind.

 

[Bthoth]

Actually, I think the many books and authors of the biblical scriptures are a testimony that God has inspired it.

OK, but because you think that does not make it true.

The Bible is unique among religious texts.

yup, more people have lied and died for that book, than even the mein kampf

It stands alone; having over 40 different human authors all from a wide variety of backgrounds, in three different languages, in different locations, over approximately a 1500 year time period.

don't you believe a god could have done it correctly on the first pass?

Yet, it’s amazing to realize the entire canon of Scripture shares a common theme; God’s salvation of humanity, pointing to a central character, the Messiah/ Savior Jesus Christ.

Then why must messiah (come back) to perfect the earth?

My perspective is that only God could have orchestrated the collection of books known as the Bible.

Who do you believe created the canon?

The Creator God who works through history, who is outside of time, who knows the beginning and the end, the God who has given humanity revelation of Himself, our need of a Savior, and of future events to come and eternity ahead.

Will cancer be addressed on the revelation?

Diabetes?
LBGT issues?

Trump and the churches that use the biblical scriptures to defend the criminal, will god, messiah, jesus or which prophet will address the important issues of hunger and big oil.

 

[Trailblazer]

Actually, I think the many books and authors of the biblical scriptures are a testimony that God has inspired it. The Bible is unique among religious texts. It stands alone; having over 40 different human authors all from a wide variety of backgrounds, in three different languages, in different locations, over approximately a 1500 year time period.

I do not think the many books and authors of the biblical scriptures are a testimony that God has inspired it. The many 'human authors' could be an indication that God had nothing to do with it. However, I am not going to take that stance, since that is incompatible with the Baha'i view.

Addressing the Muslims, Baha’u’llah wrote that the Bible is God's holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures:

“We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also?”​

The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 89​

Nevertheless, Baha'i views of the Bible vary widely. My views lie in the middle area.

Introduction

Although Bahá'ís universally share a great respect for the Bible, and acknowledge its status as sacred literature, their individual views about its authoritative status range along the full spectrum of possibilities. At one end there are those who assume the uncritical evangelical or fundamentalist-Christian view that the Bible is wholly and indisputably the word of God. At the other end are Bahá'ís attracted to the liberal, scholarly conclusion that the Bible is no more than a product of complex historical and human forces. Between these extremes is the possibility that the Bible contains the Word of God, but only in a particular sense of the phrase 'Word of God' or in particular texts. I hope to show that a Bahá'í view must lie in this middle area, and can be defined to some degree.

Bahá'í teachers and scholars both have an interest in solving this problem. It should be noted at this point that the problem of Biblical authority addressed here is logically prior to that of Biblical interpretation, and the defining of a Bahá'í view is logically prior to engaging in inter-religious dialogue.

Conclusion

The Bahá'í viewpoint proposed by this essay has been established as follows: The Bible is a reliable source of Divine guidance and salvation, and rightly regarded as a sacred and holy book. However, as a collection of the writings of independent and human authors, it is not necessarily historically accurate. Nor can the words of its writers, although inspired, be strictly defined as 'The Word of God' in the way the original words of Moses and Jesus could have been. Instead there is an area of continuing interest for Bahá'í scholars, possibly involving the creation of new categories for defining authoritative religious literature.

A Baháí View of the Bible

Yet, it’s amazing to realize the entire canon of Scripture shares a common theme; God’s salvation of humanity, pointing to a central character, the Messiah/ Savior Jesus Christ.

I think you will have a difficult time convincing those of the Jewish faith that Jesus Christ is the central character of the Old Testament.
Christians want the entire Bible to be about Jesus but the entire Bible is not about Jesus. In fact, most of the Old Testament is not about Jesus, and according to Jewish beliefs and Baha'i beliefs the prophecies in the OT are not referring to Jesus as the Messiah who would appear in the end times, which is the end of an old age and the beginning of a new age, not the end of the world.

Baha'is will concede that Jesus was Savior since that is what Baha'u'llah wrote:

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things...... Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.” Gleanings, pp. 85-86​

That Jesus was Savior is also what the Baha'i Faith teaches, but Jesus' mission as Savior was accomplished successfully so there was no reason for Jesus to return to earth.

My perspective is that only God could have orchestrated the collection of books known as the Bible. The Creator God who works through history, who is outside of time, who knows the beginning and the end, the God who has given humanity revelation of Himself, our need of a Savior, and of future events to come and eternity ahead.

That is a legitimate perspective, that God orchestrated what is written in the Bible and guided those who wrote it by the Holy Spirit.

The Heart of the Gospel is a book that was written by a Christian clergyman who resigned his orders after 40 years to become a Baha’i. It explains how the Bible fits into history.

• The Bible as Universal History
• History as Spiritual Evolution

Evolution is — in the Bible — a mode of creation chosen by God, and it is not shown as ever reaching a final end. It was in movement through all the period when the Bible was being written and when the narrative of the Bible was being enacted: it is in movement now. The grand denouement of the Bible, the Descent of the City of Peace, does not bring it to a close; but opens a new and more glorious chapter of civilisation before mankind. By slow degrees God moulds simple matter into complex forms, and by slow degrees he grants to man the privilege of self knowledge and the power which flows from it. The spiritual evolution of man is the main topic and interest of the Bible. But the narrative does not open with this topic, nor yet with man himself. It tells of the antecedents of man, and of the preparation that was made for him before he appeared upon the earth in person. It tells of the material world and of the lower kingdoms, animal, vegetable, mineral, of the sun and the moon and the stars, of Original Chaos and Old Night out of which Kosmos was formed. It tells how the natural world was brought into being step by step, stage after stage, by successive commands of the Creator and through a regular and ordered process. Age after age through unnumbered millenniums the Creative Will working in the immensities of space brought at last into being this earth, and with an unwearied, unhurrying patience wrought matter into form after form, each form more complex, more expressive than the last, till at length there was evolved the form of man.
The Heart of the Gospel, pp. 15-16

 

[Trailblazer]

Then why must messiah (come back) to perfect the earth?

Jesus does not have to come back since Jesus successfully accomplished His mission on earth, which was to bear witness unto the truth about God and sacrifice His life for the sins of humanity.

Some of the Old Testament prophecies refer to the coming of Jesus, but any of those prophecies that refer to the messiah who will come in the end times (end of the age) are not referring to Jesus.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have no concern as overcoming religious beliefs has never been hard for the honest mind.

I think that depends upon which religious beliefs one is seeking to overcome.

 

[sun rise]

Jesus does not have to come back since Jesus successfully accomplished His mission on earth, which was to bear witness unto the truth about God and sacrifice His life for the sins of humanity.

Where I differ with Christian theology and might be considered a heretic is that there is only one Christ but there have been many Jesus's (incarnation of Christ in human form). So to me the "come again" means the Christ not the historical Jesus.

The Song of the Avatars ends with

When darkness seeks to hold
The hears of men in fear,
When men cry out for help
And no one seems to hear,
That is when I rise again
To shatter forms enslaving men
To let a newer world be born.

I am Light.
I am Truth.
I am the freedom of the Son.
I am the destiny of Man,
The triumph of the One.

And to me the time is here for the shattering of "forms enslaving" humanity.

 

[Trailblazer]

Where I differ with Christian theology and might be considered a heretic is that there is only one Christ but there have been many Jesus's (incarnation of Christ in human form). So to me the "come again" means the Christ not the historical Jesus.

Where I differ with Christian theology is that I believe there is only one Jesus but there have been many Manifestations of God who brought the Christ spirit in human form. So to me the "come again" means the Christ spirit and not the historical Jesus.

 

[InChrist]

Where I differ with Christian theology is that I believe there is only one Jesus but there have been many Manifestations of God who brought the Christ spirit in human form. So to me the "come again" means the Christ spirit and not the historical Jesus.

Yes, that is different from biblical, Christian theology,..


They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”
Act 1:11

If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
John 14:3