Convergence of prophecies concerning Rome

[Ben Dhyan]

Ok, so who has heard that the Pope resigned and a new Pope is about to be elected?

Who has heard of the ongoing gossip as to the reasons for the resignation?

So who had heard of St. Malarchy's Prophecy of the Popes?

Who has heard of the Fatima prophecies and in particular the ongoing debate as to the details of the third Secret?

Who has heard of the St John's prophecy concerning the destruction of Rome aka the Whore of Babylon?

Of course you most probably have, my purpose in posting this is that there seems to be a point of convergence to these questions and perhaps a glimmer of possibility of the 'end' of this world cycle coming up.

For those esoterically inclined, I would suggest you do a search on these points to see what you think.

 

[Shiranui117]

Ok, so who has heard that the Pope resigned and a new Pope is about to be elected?

Anyone who's not living under a rock.

Who has heard of the ongoing gossip as to the reasons for the resignation?

You mean the fact that's he's old and tired and is having health issues?

So who had heard of St. Malarchy's Prophecy of the Popes?

I have, and it's off in a lot of places.

Who has heard of the Fatima prophecies and in particular the ongoing debate as to the details of the third Secret?

I have. I don't put much stock into it, personally; at best, it describes a scene where Rome is sacked and destroyed, and the Pope is martyred.

Who has heard of the St John's prophecy concerning the destruction of Rome aka the Whore of Babylon?

The CITY of Rome, not the Roman Catholic Church.

Of course you most probably have, my purpose in posting this is that there seems to be a point of convergence to these questions and perhaps a glimmer of possibility of the 'end' of this world cycle coming up.

People said that a lot of prophecies pointed to December 21st 2012 being the end of the world. We know what happened with that. It'll be the same thing with this next Pope: A whole lot of hype with nothing to show for it at the end.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Anyone who's not living under a rock.

You mean the fact that's he's old and tired and is having health issues?

I have, and it's off in a lot of places.

I have. I don't put much stock into it, personally; at best, it describes a scene where Rome is sacked and destroyed, and the Pope is martyred.

The CITY of Rome, not the Roman Catholic Church.

People said that a lot of prophecies pointed to December 21st 2012 being the end of the world. We know what happened with that. It'll be the same thing with this next Pope: A whole lot of hype with nothing to show for it at the end.

Errr, your reading on the reason for the Pope's resignation is apparently limited, but that's fine, many people don't have the inclination to read stuff that is not the official line.

There was indeed an end to the relevant Mayan Calendar cycle in question, but that was not a prophecy, just a mathematical fact so far as I understand it, however the end of the world scenario that was postulated to happen coincident with that was just contemporary simplistic sensational speculation and hype.

Concerning the convergence of prophecies in the context of the end of the Vatican, this does seem to be a fact. However the only proof of the credibility of any prophecy is its manifestation so in that regard I am just an observer of the here and now, as the future unfolds and the present recedes into the past.

So while I am not indulging in making any predictions myself, you are by proclaiming the period of the next Pope will not be the last,...and that's fine,..we will see!

 

[Ben Dhyan]

St Malachy prophecy concerning this Pope...

112 Peter the Roman, who will pasture his sheep in many tribulations, and when these things are finished, the city of seven hills [i.e. Rome] will be destroyed, and the dreadful judge will judge his people. The End.

Just posting this for interest's sake, this new Pope, though born in Argentina, is Italian (Roman) and takes the name of Francis (of Assisi, whose father was named Peter).

 

[Shiranui117]

St Malachy prophecy concerning this Pope...

112 Peter the Roman, who will pasture his sheep in many tribulations, and when these things are finished, the city of seven hills [i.e. Rome] will be destroyed, and the dreadful judge will judge his people. The End.

Just posting this for interest's sake, this new Pope, though born in Argentina, is Italian (Roman) and takes the name of Francis (of Assisi, whose father was named Peter).

So pretty much, you're using the vaguest possible way to try and twist +HH Pope Francis I into this fabricated prophecy. There's a reason that all the Popes before the publication of the Prophecy were accurately, specifically described and even named; it wasn't written in St. Malachy's time. It was written in 1590 to try and support a man who lost the bid for the Papacy.

Honestly, the second half of the Prophecy of the Popes works like a fortune cookie; use incredibly vague language that, if you try hard enough, you can fit anyone into, in some way or another.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

So pretty much, you're using the vaguest possible way to try and twist +HH Pope Francis I into this fabricated prophecy. There's a reason that all the Popes before the publication of the Prophecy were accurately, specifically described and even named; it wasn't written in St. Malachy's time. It was written in 1590 to try and support a man who lost the bid for the Papacy.

Honestly, the second half of the Prophecy of the Popes works like a fortune cookie; use incredibly vague language that, if you try hard enough, you can fit anyone into, in some way or another.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, this is the Eschatology DIR forum and matters concerning the end times can be discussed here. Fyi, I'm sure I have read all the stuff you are alluding to, and the contrarian, but prophecy is rarely literal so I keep an open mind.

So since you are here on this thread displaying disdain for my contribution, what revelation about end times do you actually feel may be credible? Perhaps we can find some common ground to discuss?

 

[Shiranui117]

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, this is the Eschatology DIR forum and matters concerning the end times can be discussed here. Fyi, I'm sure I have read all the stuff you are alluding to, and the contrarian, but prophecy is rarely literal so I keep an open mind.

So since you are here on this thread displaying disdain for my contribution, what revelation about end times do you actually feel may be credible? Perhaps we can find some common ground to discuss?

Actually, first off, I'd like to apologize for being a total, needlessly antagonistic jerk. I'mma knock that crap off. You have my deepest apologies.

Second off, I feel that the Book of Revelations is the only thing that I can say with any certainty had reliable info about the end times (and even that's a mix of cryptic jabs about the Roman Empire, so that's really hard to say). With regards to the prophecy in Revelation about Rome, do you think that was fulfilled when Rome was sacked in the 400's, or will there be another "Babylon"? (Or is Rome still the "Babylon?")

But ignoring that, do you think that the Third Secret of Fatima will occur during or after the reign of Pope Francis I, or was it really a past occurrence? Do you think that the destruction of the city of Rome will be the destruction of the Catholic Church?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Second off, I feel that the Book of Revelations is the only thing that I can say with any certainty had reliable info about the end times (and even that's a mix of cryptic jabs about the Roman Empire, so that's really hard to say). With regards to the prophecy in Revelation about Rome, do you think that was fulfilled when Rome was sacked in the 400's, or will there be another "Babylon"? (Or is Rome still the "Babylon?")

But ignoring that, do you think that the Third Secret of Fatima will occur during or after the reign of Pope Francis I, or was it really a past occurrence? Do you think that the destruction of the city of Rome will be the destruction of the Catholic Church?

No worries Shiranui117..

Rome prior to the sacking and its subsequent decay as an Imperial power, was the 6th head of the seven headed beast of Rev.. The fall of Rome lead to the establishment over time of the 7th head with ten horns which represent the quarrelsome imperial colonial powers that constitute Europe. My take is that Constantine, the last Emperor of the 6th head of the beast, was not the appointed instrument of God to establish the universal church of Christ, and hence was, despite the trappings of the teachings of Jesus, apostate from the beginning, and a hangover from the continuity of the heads of the beast starting with Babylon.

Also you will note from Rev. that at the time of the destruction of the Whore of Babylon, aka apostate true religion, the 7th and last head of the beast with seven heads has already morphed into its final state with it's auxilliary power, the beast with 2 horns like a lamb (the little horn of Daniel), and now having subdued and/or deceived all other authority and opposition in the world, the beast's war against the Lamb goes into the final act leading to the rider on thr white horse and Judgement. Iow, in the 400's, this 7th head did not yet exist and it is the power that brings about the fall of Babylon,..Rev. 17.
As I say, I keep an open mind, and there is also a tradition of Jerusalem as being a city built on seven hills, and in my reading of Daniel, there is a case to be considered for it to be destroyed as a fulfillment of the fall of Babylon.

The Roman Church tells us the Third Secret of Fatima was fulfilled with the attempted assassination of Pope John Paul II, but there appear to be Church insiders, other researchers, etc., that refute that. Imo. it would be hardly credible that the On High would bother to prophesy such a relatively minor event in the great ongoing drama of the rebellious war by the dark forces against God. According to my reading, those who refute the official line say that Fatima 3 pertains to the a situation whereby Satan infiltrates the Church and Vatican throne and the Pope, Bishops, Priests, etc., are killed. If it is real, as to whether it will happen during the reign of Pope Francis, I have an open mind and maintain constant vigilance on geopolitical and religious matters, in the context of prophecy, mainly Revelation, Daniel, and personal insights. And yes, imo the Whore of Babylon probably represents the Roman Church,..with Jerusalem a lessor probability.

 

[Shiranui117]

Rome prior to the sacking and its subsequent decay as an Imperial power, was the 6th head of the seven headed beast of Rev.. The fall of Rome lead to the establishment over time of the 7th head with ten horns which represent the quarrelsome imperial colonial powers that constitute Europe. My take is that Constantine, the last Emperor of the 6th head of the beast, was not the appointed instrument of God to establish the universal church of Christ, and hence was, despite the trappings of the teachings of Jesus, apostate from the beginning, and a hangover from the continuity of the heads of the beast starting with Babylon.

So IOW, you hold that only the united Roman Empire was the 6th head of the Beast? What do you make of the Western and Eastern Roman Empires after the split? How do they fit into this whole shebang?

Also you will note from Rev. that at the time of the destruction of the Whore of Babylon, aka apostate true religion, the 7th and last head of the beast with seven heads has already morphed into its final state with it's auxilliary power, the beast with 2 horns like a lamb (the little horn of Daniel), and now having subdued and/or deceived all other authority and opposition in the world, the beast's war against the Lamb goes into the final act leading to the rider on thr white horse and Judgement. Iow, in the 400's, this 7th head did not yet exist and it is the power that brings about the fall of Babylon,..Rev. 17.

Where do you see in the Revelations that the Beast only has six heads at first, then later grows the seventh?

As I say, I keep an open mind, and there is also a tradition of Jerusalem as being a city built on seven hills, and in my reading of Daniel, there is a case to be considered for it to be destroyed as a fulfillment of the fall of Babylon.

Could that destruction of Jerusalem have been when Rome wrecked Jerusalem in 70 AD? Or has it not yet come?

The Roman Church tells us the Third Secret of Fatima was fulfilled with the attempted assassination of Pope John Paul II, but there appear to be Church insiders, other researchers, etc., that refute that. Imo. it would be hardly credible that the On High would bother to prophesy such a relatively minor event in the great ongoing drama of the rebellious war by the dark forces against God.

Good point here.

According to my reading, those who refute the official line say that Fatima 3 pertains to the a situation whereby Satan infiltrates the Church and Vatican throne and the Pope, Bishops, Priests, etc., are killed. If it is real, as to whether it will happen during the reign of Pope Francis, I have an open mind and maintain constant vigilance on geopolitical and religious matters, in the context of prophecy, mainly Revelation, Daniel, and personal insights.

IDK if it's Satan infitrating the Church, but it's definitely the Pope being martyred and Rome just being completely trashed.

Assuming that the Third Secret of Fatima is true, then I'd say that this would happen during WW3. Which, let's face it, we all know is coming.

And yes, imo the Whore of Babylon probably represents the Roman Church,..with Jerusalem a lessor probability.[/quote]
What makes you think that the Roman Church specifically is the Whore of Babylon, as opposed to the City of Rome itself or Jerusalem?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

So IOW, you hold that only the united Roman Empire was the 6th head of the Beast? What do you make of the Western and Eastern Roman Empires after the split? How do they fit into this whole shebang?

Yes I had, and considered it just a logical consequence of the start of the decay of the hitherto unified Roman Empire, but there may indeed be more to it. There may be some reference to it but I have not looked for it.

Where do you see in the Revelations that the Beast only has six heads at first, then later grows the seventh?

In Rev. 17:10 it says of the seven heads of the beast,..."They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while." Since St. John wrote this in the first century AD, and Rome was the prevailing imperial power, then it represents the 'one' that 'is', and there is one more to come, so it follows the Roman Empire equates with the sixth head.

I might add that due to the 'only a little while', I will need to reconsider my present understanding as to the timing of the transition from the 6th to 7th head, the Roman 'head' may endure longer than I had thought.

Could that destruction of Jerusalem have been when Rome wrecked Jerusalem in 70 AD? Or has it not yet come?

Yet to come for the reasons concerning the advent of the last beast.

IDK if it's Satan infitrating the Church, but it's definitely the Pope being martyred and Rome just being completely trashed.

Yes.

Assuming that the Third Secret of Fatima is true, then I'd say that this would happen during WW3. Which, let's face it, we all know is coming.

Agree.

What makes you think that the Roman Church specifically is the Whore of Babylon, as opposed to the City of Rome itself or Jerusalem?

The city of Rome will probably be destroyed, but the term 'whore' is used in biblical prophecy to denote religious unfaithfulness, apostate religion, a falling away from original faithfulness to the true God, which happened to the original Babylon and which is why God allowed it to be destroyed.

To be clear, I am not holding any firm expectation about this stuff, just that like a thief in the night, what is coming will upon us one day, and therefore do my best to be prepared.

 

[kaoticprofit]

Ok, so who has heard that the Pope resigned and a new Pope is about to be elected?

Who has heard of the ongoing gossip as to the reasons for the resignation?

So who had heard of St. Malarchy's Prophecy of the Popes?

Who has heard of the Fatima prophecies and in particular the ongoing debate as to the details of the third Secret?

Who has heard of the St John's prophecy concerning the destruction of Rome aka the Whore of Babylon?

Of course you most probably have, my purpose in posting this is that there seems to be a point of convergence to these questions and perhaps a glimmer of possibility of the 'end' of this world cycle coming up.

For those esoterically inclined, I would suggest you do a search on these points to see what you think.

Here's a challenge for you. Show me one verse of prophecy where Rome is specifically implied in any end-time prophecy?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Here's a challenge for you. Show me one verse of prophecy where Rome is specifically implied in any end-time prophecy?

Hi kaoticprofit, it is a fact that Rome has historically known been known as 'the city of seven hills', and in Revelations 17, you will read where the Whore of Babylon is an imperial city (Rev.17:18 ....city that ruled over the kings of the world) that sits on seven hills (Rev. 17:9 ...The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits).

City of the Seven Hills definition of City of the Seven Hills in the Free Online Encyclopedia.
Rome Italian Roma
City (pop., 2001 prelim: 2,459,776), capital of Italy. It is situated on the Tiber River in the central part of the country. The historical site of Rome on its seven hills was occupied as early as the Bronze Age (c. 1500 BC), and the city was politically unified by the early 6th century BC. It became the capital of the Roman Empire (see Roman Republic and Empire).

 

[kaoticprofit]

Hi kaoticprofit, it is a fact that Rome has historically known been known as 'the city of seven hills', and in Revelations 17, you will read where the Whore of Babylon is an imperial city (Rev.17:18 ....city that ruled over the kings of the world) that sits on seven hills (Rev. 17:9 ...The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits).

Hi Ben,

The word in the text is the word 'oros' and its meaning is better translated 'mountain.' Rome does not sit on seven mountains!

There are 7 hills on the east side of the Tiber river. Vatican hill is on the West side of the Tiber....THAT MAKES 8!

Vatican Hill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are only two cities that qualify as a city of seven mountains. East Jerusalem and Mecca! And I'm not sure if the hills around Mecca are large enough to qualify as mountains.

http://shoebat.com/2013/05/31/mystery-babylon-is-mecca-not-vatican/

http://www.wnd.com/2013/05/mystery-babylon-is-mecca-not-vatican/

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Hi Ben,

The word in the text is the word 'oros' and its meaning is better translated 'mountain.' Rome does not sit on seven mountains!

There are 7 hills on the east side of the Tiber river. Vatican hill is on the West side of the Tiber....THAT MAKES 8!

Vatican Hill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are only two cities that qualify as a city of seven mountains. East Jerusalem and Mecca! And I'm not sure if the hills around Mecca are large enough to qualify as mountains.

Mystery Babylon is Mecca, NOT Vatican | Walid ShoebatWalid Shoebat

‘Mystery Babylon’ is Mecca not Vatican

You can employ all the pedantry imaginable, but that does not alter one iota the facts that Rome is known both historically until now as the city of seven hills....

Schematic map of Rome showing the seven hills....Seven hills of Rome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now it is true that Jerusalem is also historically known as the city of seven hills (btw, there are no mountains in Jerusalem, just hills...think about it)...and btw so was Constantinople, but what positively identifies Rome as being the City of the Whore of Babylon is this reference in Revelation 17:10 concerning the symbolism of the seven heads of the beast on which the whore sits..."They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while."

So this Divine revelation to John occurred during the Roman imperial rule, which means it is to be identified as the sixth head. The case is therefore settled as what city John is referring to. At the time of St. John and Jesus Christ, the power of the first, second, third, fourth, and fifth heads had waned and the sixth head Rome was dominant. The seventh and final head was not in power at the time of St. John, Rome was so, it must represent the sixth head and also represent the city where the Whore of Babylon resides.

Btw kaoticprofit, in case you have another view, I would be very interested to hear of your understanding of Revelation 17 concerning the correlation of the the seven heads of the beast with respect to the seven relevant Kingdoms of the beast, and the name of the capital city of the sixth Kingdom?

 

[kaoticprofit]

I will never agree with that interpretation.

Rome DOES NOT sit on seven 'mountains'. It doesn't even sit on 'seven hills.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_Hill

There are seven hills on the East side of the Tiber. 'Vatican Hill' sits on the west side of the Tiber. THAT MAKES 8 HILLS TOTAL! AND! The word 'hills' is an incorrect translation. The word is 'oros' which is better translated 'mountains' anyway! The 7 hills on the east side of the Tiber, and Vatican hill on the west side of the Tiber are too small to be designated as 'mountains'.

Here is the text...

And here G5602 is the mind G3563 which G3588 hath G2192 wisdom. G4678 The seven G2033 heads G2776 are G1526 seven G2033 mountains, G3735 on G1909 which G846 the woman G1135 sitteth. G2521 G3699

If John wanted to indicate HILLS he would have used this word...

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1015&t=KJV

But he didn't. He used this word...

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3735&t=KJV

Rome will have absolutely nothing to do with end-time prophecy.

(btw, there are no mountains in Jerusalem, just hills...think about it)

You need to think about it!

"Babylon must “sit on” or occupy seven mountains, and I believe those mountains are the seven mountains that surround Jerusalem."

“As the mountains surround Jerusalem, so the Lord surrounds his people both now and forevermore,” the psalmist writes. (Psalm 125:2)

These mountains are Mount Zion (southwest, 2558 ft.), Mount Gareb (west, 2518 ft.), Mount Scopus (north, 2724 ft.) Mount of Olives (east, 2641 ft.) Mount of Offense (southeast, 2411 ft.) Mount of Evil Counsel (south, 2548 ft.) and at the center, Mount Moriah (the temple mount, 2556 ft.)

 

[kaoticprofit]

Btw kaoticprofit, in case you have another view, I would be very interested to hear of your understanding of Revelation 17 concerning the correlation of the the seven heads of the beast with respect to the seven relevant Kingdoms of the beast, and the name of the capital city of the sixth Kingdom?

I will respond tonight. But in a nutshell....

All the kings and kingdoms mentioned in Revelation 13 and 17 are all end-time kingdoms. They are not a progression or succession of world empires.

Muslim's want to make East Jerusalem as their world Capital.

See you tonight!

KP

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I will never agree with that interpretation.

Rome DOES NOT sit on seven 'mountains'. It doesn't even sit on 'seven hills.'

Vatican Hill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are seven hills on the East side of the Tiber. Rome or 'Vatican Hill' sits on the west side of the Tiber. THAT MAKES 8 HILLS TOTAL! AND! The word 'hills' is an incorrect translation. The word is 'oros' which is translated 'mountains' anyway! The 7 hills on the east side of the Tiber, and Vatican hill on the west side of the Tiber are too small to be designated as 'mountains'.

Here is the text...

And here G5602 is the mind G3563 which G3588 hath G2192 wisdom. G4678 The seven G2033 heads G2776 are G1526 seven G2033 mountains, G3735 on G1909 which G846 the woman G1135 sitteth. G2521 G3699

If John wanted to indicate HILLS he would have used this word...

Hebrew Lexicon :: H1389 (KJV)

But he didn't. He used this word...

Greek Lexicon :: G3735 (KJV)

Rome will have absolutely nothing to do with end-time prophecy.



You need to think about it!

"Babylon must “sit on” or occupy seven mountains, and I believe those mountains are the seven mountains that surround Jerusalem."

“As the mountains surround Jerusalem, so the Lord surrounds his people both now and forevermore,” the psalmist writes. (Psalm 125:2)

These mountains are Mount Zion (southwest, 2558 ft.), Mount Gareb (west, 2518 ft.), Mount Scopus (north, 2724 ft.) Mount of Olives (east, 2641 ft.) Mount of Offense (southeast, 2411 ft.) Mount of Evil Counsel (south, 2548 ft.) and at the center, Mount Moriah (the temple mount, 2556 ft.)

You say if John wanted to indicate HILLS, he would have used the Hebrew word for HILL.... גִּבְעָה (gib`ah) (Strong's Number H1389)

But Revelation is in Greek, so why would John use a Hebrew word instead of the Greek word ὄρος (oros) (Strong's Number G3735)?

 

[kaoticprofit]

You say if John wanted to indicate HILLS, he would have used the Hebrew word for HILL.... גִּבְעָה (gib`ah) (Strong's Number H1389)

But Revelation is in Greek, so why would John use a Hebrew word instead of the Greek word ὄρος (oros) (Strong's Number G3735)?

Sorry. What I did wrong is I wanted to show you that a HILL is typically implied to be smaller than a mountain. #H1389...

hill
hill (lower than a mountain)

John did have other options to use for the word hill other than 'oros' but he chose the one that signifies a mountain.

So I should have also posted this option that John had...

Greek Lexicon :: G1015 (KJV)

I think to translate the word 'oros' as hill is misleading.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Sorry. What I did wrong is I wanted to show you that a HILL is typically implied to be smaller than a mountain. #H1389...

hill
hill (lower than a mountain)

John did have other options to use for the word hill other than 'oros' but he chose the one that signifies a mountain.

So I should have also posted this option that John had...

Greek Lexicon :: G1015 (KJV)

I think to translate the word 'oros' as hill is misleading.

Nevertheless, there are some translations that use the word 'hills'...Bible verse | Revelation 17:9

Also fwiw, at least some of the called mountains of Jerusalem are considered technically HILLS, and are referred to as such by some in common usage.

The Seven Hills of Jerusalem....http://www.askelm.com/prophecy/p000201.htm

 

[kaoticprofit]

Nevertheless, there are some translations that use the word 'hills'...Bible verse | Revelation 17:9

Also fwiw, at least some of the called mountains of Jerusalem are considered technically HILLS, and are referred to as such by some in common usage.

The Seven Hills of Jerusalem....The Seven Hills of Jerusalem

They are not technically considered hills!

Is that why they are called Mount Zion (southwest, 2558 ft.), Mount Gareb (west, 2518 ft.), Mount Scopus (north, 2724 ft.) Mount of Olives (east, 2641 ft.) Mount of Offense (southeast, 2411 ft.) Mount of Evil Counsel (south, 2548 ft.) and at the center, Mount Moriah (the temple mount, 2556 ft.)

A mountain is larger than a hill. The word hill is a poor translation of the word 'oros' as it is more correctly translated MOUNTAIN.

The KJV properly translates the word 'oros' as mountain.

Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

The difference between a mountain and a hill is that a mountain is characterized by a summit and hill does not have a summit.