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Convergence of prophecies concerning Rome

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
I will respond tonight. But in a nutshell....

All the kings and kingdoms mentioned in Revelation 13 and 17 are all end-time kingdoms. They are not a progression or succession of world empires.

Muslim's want to make East Jerusalem as their world Capital.

See you tonight!

KP

While you compose this response, could you please explain if you consider the beasts of Daniel, their seven heads (the last head of which has ten horns, have any correlation with the beast of Revelation 13 and 17, with its seven heads, the last one which has ten horns?

You may also note that Revelation 17:10...."They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.", implies that these heads, at least the last three, come in sequence in time.

Also, do you consider the judgement prophecy of Daniel 12 as yet to come?
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
They are not technically considered hills!

Is that why they are called Mount Zion (southwest, 2558 ft.), Mount Gareb (west, 2518 ft.), Mount Scopus (north, 2724 ft.) Mount of Olives (east, 2641 ft.) Mount of Offense (southeast, 2411 ft.) Mount of Evil Counsel (south, 2548 ft.) and at the center, Mount Moriah (the temple mount, 2556 ft.)

A mountain is larger than a hill. The word hill is a poor translation of the word 'oros' as it is more correctly translated MOUNTAIN.

The KJV properly translates the word 'oros' as mountain.

Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

The difference between a mountain and a hill is that a mountain is characterized by a summit and hill does not have a summit.
I think that those figures above are altitude above sea level, and not heights relative to surrounding landscape, look at the following drawing, even the Valley of Jehoshaphat is at 2179 feet.

Notice how the words mount and hill are sometimes used synonymously.......http://www.bible-history.com/jerusalem/firstcenturyjerusalem_the_land_of_jerusalem.html

jerusalem-topography.jpg


Jerusalem rests upon four hills or mountains, but only two of them have biblical names, Mount Zion and Mount Moriah. Between these mountains there is a large valley that the Romans called the Tyropoean. Mount Zion was referred to geographically as the southwestern hill of Jerusalem. But Zion has much greater significance in the Bible and it is frequently mentioned as the place of the Temple and of the King. When David said that he would not rest until he "has found out a place for the Lord, a habitation for the mighty God of Jacob," the Lord replied with this Scripture:

Ps 132:13-14 "For the LORD has chosen Zion; He has desired it for His dwelling place: "This is My resting place forever; Here I will dwell, for I have desired it."

The hill on the north was called Bezetha, Or the New City. The hill on the east was called the Akra, or Fortress, the according to tradition this was the "stronghold of Zion."

Mount Zion is the largest of the hills in Jerusalem, it stands 2,550 feet high. Mount Zion is mentioned throughout the Old Testament but only once in the New Testament (Revelation 14:1). Mount Zion is located on the southwest side of Jerusalem between the Tyropoeon Valley and the Hinnom Valley and this is the location of the Upper City where the wealthy lived during the time of Jesus. This is also the hill where the Jebusites built a stronghold but were eventually conquered by David. David built palace here on Mount Zion it became the palace and home for the kings of Israel. David and most of his successors (14) were buried on Mount Zion (1 Kings 2:10; 9:43; 14:31).
But ok ok, we can agree to disagree for now on the hill v mountain translation, so now let's move on and examine the possibility of the Revelation prophecy as referring to Jerusalem.

I will await your response to my last posted comment.

And btw, if you can convince me with knowledge of which I can agree with, I will certainly listen to you, but not so if your position is not intuitive and consistent with logic.
 
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kaoticprofit

Active Member
While you compose this response, could you please explain if you consider the beasts of Daniel, their seven heads (the last head of which has ten horns, have any correlation with the beast of Revelation 13 and 17, with its seven heads, the last one which has ten horns?

You may also note that Revelation 17:10...."They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.", implies that these heads, at least the last three, come in sequence in time.

Also, do you consider the judgement prophecy of Daniel 12 as yet to come?

Sorry but that isn't the correct translation of the text. The interlinear DOES NOT use the word HAVE! The text is translated, "There are seven kings five fallen."

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev17.pdf

There may even be two ten nation empires in the end. (possibly Psalm 83 and Ez. 38-39.) The fourth kingdom of Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 seem to be alike. But I haven't concluded anything about them yet as I have to study both of them more.

The beast of Revelation 17:3 is red in color.

Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

And so is the dragon in Revelation 12:3.

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Remember that John is taken into the 'wilderness' (desert) to see the judgment of the great whore. Wilderness is better translated 'desert' and Mecca and Medina reside in the desert. Islam has been called, "the desert religion".

Revelation 17:3 could actually mean that the woman (Babylon the Great) who 'occupies' the ten nation empire of the beast is the "religion of the dragon!" i.e. ISLAM!

I don't think that the ten horned beast of Revelation 13 is the same as the ten horned beast of Revelation 17.
 
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Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Sorry but that isn't the correct translation of the text. The interlinear DOES NOT use the word HAVE! The text is translated, "There are seven kings five fallen."

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev17.pdf

There may even be two ten nation empires in the end. (possibly Psalm 83 and Ez. 38-39.) The fourth kingdom of Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 seem to be alike. But I haven't concluded anything about them yet as I have to study both of them more.

The beast of Revelation 17:3 is red in color.

Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

And so is the dragon in Revelation 12:3.

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Remember that John is taken into the 'wilderness' (desert) to see the judgment of the great whore. Wilderness is better translated 'desert' and Mecca and Medina reside in the desert. Islam has been called, "the desert religion".

Revelation 17:3 could actually mean that the woman (Babylon the Great) who 'occupies' the ten nation empire of the beast is the "religion of the dragon!" i.e. ISLAM!

I don't think that the ten horned beast of Revelation 13 is the same as the ten horned beast of Revelation 17.
Don't understand why the omission of 'have' changes the meaning...still means the same afaics...and fyi. the link you provided doesn't work!

Fwiw, I would imagine that 'wilderness' in this context means a place unknown in time and space, but who knows?

Where do you get the understanding that Islam is the religion of the dragon....where does Mohammad talk about dragons or where are examples of muslims worshipping dragons?

On the other hand, I can see a fiery dragon as a metaphor for nuclear missiles..those that make fire fall from the sky that the beast of revelation is able to perform in front of mankind.
 

kaoticprofit

Active Member
Don't understand why the omission of 'have' changes the meaning...still means the same afaics...and fyi. the link you provided doesn't work!

The link works for me. Just click on the enlarge button on the bottom right and you'll be able to read it.

Fwiw, I would imagine that 'wilderness' in this context means a place unknown in time and space, but who knows?

No! Wilderness implies a desert....take a look!
Greek Lexicon :: G2048 (KJV)

Where do you get the understanding that Islam is the religion of the dragon....where does Mohammad talk about dragons or where are examples of muslims worshipping dragons?
Here are just a few reasons.

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

The two horned beast is symbolic of the Shia and Sunni sect of Islam and called Babylon the Great.

The name Lucifer in Hebrew is Halal. It means "the king of Babylon," and "The bright and Morning Star."

Hebrew Lexicon :: H1966 (KJV)

Also the word 'Halal' in Hebrew has the same meaning in Arabic. Hilal
And it means....
Web definition
Hilāl (هلال) is an Arabic word that means "crescent" or "new moon." It's an Islamic symbol!

Halal and Hilal means Lucifer. Lucifer is Satan. And Satan is the devil... and in Christian literature that actually means... The Morning Star and Crescent Moon. We put crosses on top of Churches. Islam has a star and crescent moon. Allah is also known as a moon god in Arabic mythology! And Islam is known as "the desert religion."
_______________________________________________________
The number of the verses in the Koran according to the scholars:
Ibn-i Abbas (ra): 6616,
Nafi (ra): 6217,

Shayba (ra): 6214,
Scholars of Egypt (ra): 6226,
Zamahshari (ra)
(the genius Eloquence Scholar of the Arabic language and literature);
6666.
Bediuzzaman, mujaddid (the reformer) of the13.century, also has the opinion of
6666 verses.
Isn't that a pretty good indication Islam is evil!
_____________________________________________________________
Around the octagonal structure of the Dome of the Rock is a long classical Arabic inscription that says that "God has no begotten son," thus denying that Jesus is the Son of God? Many mosque also have the same inscription.
Anti-Christ Monument In Jerusalem

d_dome_illus.jpg


1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

On the other hand, I can see a fiery dragon as a metaphor for nuclear missiles..those that make fire fall from the sky that the beast of revelation is able to perform in front of mankind.

This is what I wrote about that....

The Ephah - BLACKSHEEPPROPHECIES.COM
 
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Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Nah...there are so many things wrong on so many levels with the idea of Islam being the beast of Revelation that it is not worth the effort to point out...

But my best wishes go to you in your goal to understand that which only God can reveal.

Fyi....here is my best present understanding of the manifestation of the prophecy of Daniel and Revelation...Who is the beast that deceives the whole world in bible prophecy?

God bless... :namaste
 

kaoticprofit

Active Member
Nah...there are so many things wrong on so many levels with the idea of Islam being the beast of Revelation that it is not worth the effort to point out...

That explains one thing. You have accepted what the "Protestant Prophecy Experts" have been teaching for decades and in some cases centuries.

You're backing out of the debate is honorable. I hope people profit from the kaotic results of my studies. They are obviously free for distribution.

About 5 years ago I came up with the phrase, "domination by abomination," and now I see it elsewhere on the web. About 7 years ago Joel Rosenberg has taken some of my writings from a forum on Daniel 2 and put them in his book. I know this as they are worded identical and praise God for it.

Now I'm hoping someone takes this saying of mine and walks away with it.

"The greatest impediment Christians have obtaining truth is when they think they already have it."

But my best wishes go to you in your goal to understand that which only God can reveal.

And the same to you brother.

Proverbs 23:12 Apply thine heart unto instruction, and thine ears to the words of knowledge.

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.
 
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Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
That explains one thing. You have accepted what the "Protestant Prophecy Experts" have been teaching for decades and in some cases centuries.

You're backing out of the debate is honorable. I hope people profit from the kaotic results of my studies. They are obviously free for distribution.

About 5 years ago I came up with the phrase, "domination by abomination," and now I see it elsewhere on the web. About 7 years ago Joel Rosenberg has taken some of my writings from a forum on Daniel 2 and put them in his book. I know this as they are worded identical and praise God for it.

Now I'm hoping someone takes this saying of mine and walks away with it.
"The greatest impediment Christians have obtaining truth is when they think they already have it."

And the same to you brother.

Proverbs 23:12 Apply thine heart unto instruction, and thine ears to the words of knowledge.

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.
Hmmm...I didn't know that the "Protestant Prophecy Experts" have been teaching for decades that the present zionist state of Israel set up by the beast will be where He/It will be vanquished (Daniel 11:45)...that involves the judgement of Daniel !2. Also that the USA is the two horned beast of Revelation 13:11 which is the same as the little horn of Daniel 7:8.

I would be grateful if you could provide some links to support my interpretation. Btw, you are welcome to comment on my blog post...

There is no debate from my side, I am happy to read your prophetic interpretation, though I may not agree with parts, we can agree to disagree.
The actual events of prophecy are unfolding before our eyes, and the most important thing of all is not whose interpretation mostly approximates the reality, but who is on the right side of the judgement...and regardless of mortal hopes and claims to be among the elect...only God knows.

Brain knowledge is not the same thing as wisdom...1 Corinthians 2:9

“What no human eye has ever seen,
what no human ear has ever heard,
and what no human mind has ever conceived"
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
 

kaoticprofit

Active Member
I didn't know that the "Protestant Prophecy Experts" have been teaching for decades that the present zionist state of Israel set up by the beast will be where He/It will be vanquished (Daniel 11:45)...that involves the judgement of Daniel !2. Also that the USA is the two horned beast of Revelation 13:11 which is the same as the little horn of Daniel 7:8.

The beast will make the Dome area of East Jerusalem as it's world capital. But I say it's impossible for the USA to be the two horned beast because it's absolutely not supported by scripture. The two horned beast is a religious entity.

All nations mentioned in bible prophecy are from the area around the Middle-East, N. Africa, Turkey, and mostly Arabic and Persian. etc. Not one verse of prophecy indicates Rome, the E.U., or the U.S.

All I implied was that you've accepted the traditional interpretation that Rome is the fourth kingdom of Daniel 2. I don't know if this really is much of a debate if you haven't tried to answer my questions about it. Wherever you go with it is anyone's guess. Daniel 2 was written for gentile nations. Chapter 1-12 for Israel.

I would be grateful if you could provide some links to support my interpretation. Btw, you are welcome to comment on my blog post...
There is no debate from my side, I am happy to read your prophetic interpretation, though I may not agree with parts, we can agree to disagree.

Why would I want to provide links to support your interpretation???


I disagree with most interpretations I see today. But people are finding out that it's not a Revived Roman Empire we see in bible prophecy. And it's not the Roman Empire or any of it's siblings bent on world domination we see emerging in the daily news.

The actual events of prophecy are unfolding before our eyes, and the most important thing of all is not whose interpretation mostly approximates the reality, but who is on the right side of the judgement...and regardless of mortal hopes and claims to be among the elect...only God knows.

Brain knowledge is not the same thing as wisdom...1 Corinthians 2:9


So this is the way I look at it....

Most of us believe in the inspired Word of God. The word inspired means God breathed or God spoke. When God spoke to His servants the prophets

He spoke to them in the language they also spoke, understood, and wrote.

So one of the most important parts of my hermeneutic is to research the definition of the words in the text in the language it was spoken, written, and understood in. AND then look at how those same biblical words are used elsewhere in the bible...AND... accept the definition of those words regardless if it goes against what I already believe.

You are welcome to read my home page.
http://www.blacksheepprophecies.com/
 
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Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
The beast will make the Dome area of East Jerusalem as it's world capital. But I say it's impossible for the USA to be the two horned beast because it's absolutely not supported by scripture. The two horned beast is a religious entity.

All nations mentioned in bible prophecy are from the area around the Middle-East, N. Africa, Turkey, and mostly Arabic and Persian. etc. Not one verse of prophecy indicates Rome, the E.U., or the U.S.

All I implied was that you've accepted the traditional interpretation that Rome is the fourth kingdom of Daniel 2. I don't know if this really is much of a debate if you haven't tried to answer my questions about it. Wherever you go with it is anyone's guess. Daniel 2 was written for gentile nations. Chapter 1-12 for Israel.

Why would I want to provide links to support your interpretation???

I disagree with most interpretations I see today. But people are finding out that it's not a Revived Roman Empire we see in bible prophecy. And it's not the Roman Empire or any of it's siblings bent on world domination we see emerging in the daily news.

So this is the way I look at it....

Most of us believe in the inspired Word of God. The word inspired means God breathed or God spoke. When God spoke to His servants the prophets

He spoke to them in the language they also spoke, understood, and wrote.

So one of the most important parts of my hermeneutic is to research the definition of the words in the text in the language it was spoken, written, and understood in. AND then look at how those same biblical words are used elsewhere in the bible...AND... accept the definition of those words regardless if it goes against what I already believe.

You are welcome to read my home page.
BLACKSHEEPPROPHECIES.COM - HOME PAGE

If you can provide links or citations that show the traditional interpretation indicates the rulers of Zionist Israel are going to be removed by God's judgement soon, and that USA is the second beast of revelation, it would prove your assertion, if you are not able, then you are not correct.

So far as the Muslim nations are concerned, it is not the religion of Islam that is the problem, it is the beast that is directing them, most are already dominated by the beast, only Iran stands alone...and it is still managing to hold out against the beast, but for how much longer? The Jihadists, Salfists, Al Queda, etc., who kill people are mercenaries who do the bidding of the beast...they are not true muslims..in fact they hate and kill god loving muslims.

I have already provided the reason why USA can be shown as the little horn of Daniel 7..the overturning of the three kingdoms of Europe. The USA is the greatest superpower this world has ever seem, and the two horned beast of Revelation has power to affect the whole world...its already happening! Judgement is nearer than you think imho.

Jesus did not speak Hebrew, nor did the disciples, they spoke Aramaic...so all this word research, while scholarly, is not going to change the facts...the bible text is not a historical narrative, though there is a historical theme, it is mainly written in allegory, metaphor, simile, analogy, parable, etc,...particularly the prophetic parts. Only those with eyes to see and ears to hear will understand...the scholars mostly look, but they do not see..

I have visited your home page...a lot of work in that...God loves those who love God...and that includes all God loving Muslims.
 

kaoticprofit

Active Member
If you can provide links or citations that show the traditional interpretation indicates the rulers of Zionist Israel are going to be removed by God's judgement soon, and that USA is the second beast of revelation, it would prove your assertion, if you are not able, then you are not correct.

I never said anything about Zionist Israel. All I said was that you've accepted the traditional interpretation of Daniel 2. I don't know why you keep referring to Zionist Israel.

So far as the Muslim nations are concerned, it is not the religion of Islam that is the problem, it is the beast that is directing them, most are already dominated by the beast, only Iran stands alone...and it is still managing to hold out against the beast, but for how much longer?

Islam is definetly the problem because the beast over them is the DRAGON i.e. Satan/Lucifer.

Iran stands alone because Iran is "The Whore of Babylon."

The woman is a separate portion of the vision of Revelation 17 BUT still part of the overall message of it because she "occupies the seven headed ten horned beast!" You really can't separate the two. The word 'sits' means to sit down, seat one's self, to sit, be seated, of a place occupied, to have a fixed abode, to dwell. This means that Babylon the Great (Islam) is the dominate religion of the coming ten naton Islamic Empire of the beast. It makes no sense to me that the harlot would have a fixed abode with the beast if it's a progression of world empires. Whatever the woman is, she has a "fixed abode" or occupies the beast, and is guilty of committing the abominations of the earth.

The vision is one picture of a complete end-time entity. There's nothing in the context of the passage that indicates this is a historic progression of world empires.

Rome and the U.S. will have nothing to do with end-time prophecy since there's not one verse of prophecy that implicates Rome or the U.S. in any way. CAN YOU QUOTE ONE!

Also that the USA is the two horned beast of Revelation 13:11 which is the same as the little horn of Daniel 7:8.
There's a problem....

The two horned beast of Revelation 13 is said to come from the earth.

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

The beast of Daniel 7 is said to come up from the great sea!

Daniel 7:2-3 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

The SEA is typically the MED! AND!!! All the beast of Daniel 7 as well as Daniel 8's little horn, come from the sea! They are different in origin as the two horned beast of Rev. 13 because one comes out of the sea, the other out of the earth.

Horn:

"a horn," is used in the plural, as the symbol of strength,
(a) in the apocalyptic visions;
(1) on the head of the Lamb as symbolic of Christ, Rev 5:6;

Rev 5:6
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Horns also indicate a ministry.......
(3) at the corners of the golden altar, Rev 9:13 (cp. Exd 30:2; the horns were of one piece with the altar, as in the case of the brazen altar, Exd 27:2, and were emblematic of the efficacy of the ministry connected with it);
(b) metaphorically, in the singular, "a horn of salvation," Luk 1:69 (a frequent metaphor in the OT, e.g., Psa 18:2; cp. 1Sa 2:10; Lam 2:3).

Rev 9:13
And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

"Two horns like a lamb." The word 'like' means similar to. This means the two horned beast is similar to Christianity.

Ever notice how lamb horns can look like "CRESCENT MOONS!"

images


images

Islam is counterfeit Christianity. They have a false book called the Koran. A false Prophet called Muhammad. A false God called Allah. A false returning jesus called the Muslim jesus. They have a false prophetic scenario with a false returning messiah called the Mahdi.

Revelation 13:1-2 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

The dragon....another name for Satan, and is the same color as the scarlet colored beast of Revelation 17......empowers the beast. The dragon is another name for Lucifer which in Hebrew is Halal. The dragon gives the beast it's power. DRAGON means "the king of Babylon," and "The bright and Morning Star." That's the symbol on top of most mosque! AND! The "king of Babylon" IS NOT from the USA!

THE TWO HORNED BEAST

images


images


images


Remember what I said about the word Lucifer which is another name for dragon?????

The name Lucifer in Hebrew is Halal and it means, "The Morning Star.

Also the word 'Halal' in Hebrew has the same meaning in Arabic. Hilal
And it means....
Web definition
Hilāl (هلال) is an Arabic word that means "crescent" or "new moon." It's an Islamic symbol!

Halal and Hilal means... Lucifer... aka Satan... aka the devil... and in Christian literature actually means... The Morning Star and Crescent Moon. We put crosses on top of Churches. Islam has a star and crescent moon. Allah is also known as a moon god in Arabic mythology!

The two horned beast is symbolic of the Shia and Sunni sects of Islam and called Babylon the Great. The harlot is the Shia sect.

The Jihadists, Salfists, Al Queda, etc., who kill people are mercenaries who do the bidding of the beast...they are not true muslims..in fact they hate and kill god loving muslims.

They are the truest of all Muslims because that's where Islam began!
The beast wants Muslims to kill Muslims. It all started back when Muhammad died and the argument of succession rose up." That has developed into many still hating one another today. In fact one argument still between the Sunni's and Shia's is, "who will welcome the Madhi when he returns?"
 
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kaoticprofit

Active Member
I have already provided the reason why USA can be shown as the little horn of Daniel 7..the overturning of the three kingdoms of Europe. The USA is the greatest superpower this world has ever seem, and the two horned beast of Revelation has power to affect the whole world...its already happening! Judgement is nearer than you think imho.

Where did you show this??? It wasn't on this thread! ALL YOU'VE SAID IS WHAT YOU BELIEVE WITH LITTLE OR NO SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT IT. You can turn Hitler into a saint by interpreting the bible the way you do! I've seen the "U.S. is Babylon" theory before and it's an absolute flop of an interpretation. It's more speculative than anything else. The belief is that the two horns represent the Democratic and Republican parties of America. What this has working against it is that the two horned beast is "similar' to a lamb but speaks, "like Satan!"

This beast exercises the same Satanic power of the first beast, causing people to worship the first beast, and has power from Satan to do miracles....etc. etc......
How and why is America going to convince people to worship the Islamic (or any) anti-Christ???

You believe Rome is Babylon the Great and that the U.S. is the two horned beast but You HAVE NOT quoted one verse of prophecy that implies Rome (or the US) in any end-time prophecy! Every prophetic verse I know of points to Arab, Persian, and Islamic peoples.

Jesus did not speak Hebrew, nor did the disciples, they spoke Aramaic...so all this word research, while scholarly, is not going to change the facts...the bible text is not a historical narrative, though there is a historical theme, it is mainly written in allegory, metaphor, simile, analogy, parable, etc,...particularly the prophetic parts. Only those with eyes to see and ears to hear will understand...the scholars mostly look, but they do not see.

Jesus and some of his apostles did likely speak Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. But that doesn't change anything.

The region Jesus grew up in was multicultural and multilingual. Hebrew was regarded as the sacred language of the Jews. Jesus grew up in a Jewish family and was given a good Jewish education at that time. Jesus also read from the Hebrew Torah and is recorded as reading from several other Hebrew text. In Luke 2 and at age 12 Jesus is found discussing the Torah with the religious leaders of His day which would have to taken place in Hebrew.
Did Jesus speak Hebrew? Absolutely!

It's all part of a good hermeneutic. Something you totally disregard.

BUT IT DOES CHANGE YOUR FACTS!

People are not interested in the truth because they think they already have it!

"The greatest impediment Christians have obtaining truth is when they think they already have it."

Let me repeat what you completely disregard.

Most of us believe in the inspired Word of God. The word inspired means God breathed or God spoke. When God spoke to His servants the prophets He spoke to them in the language they also spoke, understood, and wrote.

So one of the most important parts of my hermeneutic is to research the definition of the words in the text in the language it was written in AND then look at how those same biblical words are used elsewhere in the bible...AND accept the definition of those words regardless if it goes against what I already believe.
One example is that 'silly question' you mentioned. You claim that Rome is the legs of iron and toes mingled with iron and clay. How does the word 'mingled' indicate a Roman when the word is the Aramaic word 'arab!' How does the word ARAB denote a Roman?

The question still remains.....
Show me ONE verse of bible prophecy where Rome (or the U.S.) is specifically implied in any end-time prophecy?

Revelation 17:3 actually means that the woman (Babylon the Great) who 'occupies' the ten nation empire of the beast IS the "two horned beast" or "religion of the dragon!" i.e. ISLAM!

Rome prior to the sacking and its subsequent decay as an Imperial power, was the 6th head of the seven headed beast of Rev.. The fall of Rome lead to the establishment over time of the 7th head with ten horns which represent the quarrelsome imperial colonial powers that constitute Europe. My take is that Constantine, the last Emperor of the 6th head of the beast, was not the appointed instrument of God to establish the universal church of Christ, and hence was, despite the trappings of the teachings of Jesus, apostate from the beginning, and a hangover from the continuity of the heads of the beast starting with Babylon.

Here are some other questions for you.

How could the kings of the earth committed fornication with the harlot that "occupies" the beast if most of them are past empires? The only way they can be is for them to be present at the same time.

And how are the inhabitants of the earth made drunk with the wine of her fornication if they are inhabitants of past empires that no longer exist?

In verse 7 John is told the mystery of the woman "and the beast that carried her!" How can a beast that has 7 heads and ten horns that represents past empires carry an end-time harlot?

How are past empires to have the "same mind."

Rev. 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

How can kings, "which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast," be past empires?!

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
How can past empires make war with a returning Messiah?

14 These shall make war with the Lamb....

Also you will note from Rev. that at the time of the destruction of the Whore of Babylon, aka apostate true religion, the 7th and last head of the beast with seven heads has already morphed into its final state with it's auxilliary power, the beast with 2 horns like a lamb (the little horn of Daniel), and now having subdued and/or deceived all other authority and opposition in the world, the beast's war against the Lamb goes into the final act leading to the rider on thr white horse and Judgement. Iow, in the 400's, this 7th head did not yet exist and it is the power that brings about the fall of Babylon,..Rev. 17.
As I say, I keep an open mind, and there is also a tradition of Jerusalem as being a city built on seven hills, and in my reading of Daniel, there is a case to be considered for it to be destroyed as a fulfillment of the fall of Babylon.

You and nearly every Christian I know doesn't know what an apostate is!

The Roman Church tells us the Third Secret of Fatima was fulfilled with the attempted assassination of Pope John Paul II, but there appear to be Church insiders, other researchers, etc., that refute that. Imo. it would be hardly credible that the On High would bother to prophesy such a relatively minor event in the great ongoing drama of the rebellious war by the dark forces against God. According to my reading, those who refute the official line say that Fatima 3 pertains to the a situation whereby Satan infiltrates the Church and Vatican throne and the Pope, Bishops, Priests, etc., are killed. If it is real, as to whether it will happen during the reign of Pope Francis, I have an open mind and maintain constant vigilance on geopolitical and religious matters, in the context of prophecy, mainly Revelation, Daniel, and personal insights. And yes, imo the Whore of Babylon probably represents the Roman Church,..with Jerusalem a lessor probability.

The whore of Babylon is definitely the religion of Islam. Catholicism IS NOT anti-Christ. ISLAM IS! Did you forget? Or do you just disregard the evidence because it goes against what you believe?!

Around the octagonal structure of the Dome of the Rock is a long classical Arabic inscription that says that "God has no begotten son," thus denying that Jesus is the Son of God? Many mosque also have the same inscription.
Anti-Christ Monument In Jerusalem.

d_dome_illus.jpg


We believe that Jesus Christ takes away our sins and is the Rock of Ages and the chief cornerstone of the Churches foundation. Did you know that Muslim's bow toward a black rock in Mecca 5 times a day and believe it takes away their sins. This black rock is the 'cornerstone' of the Kaaba.

Muslim's consider it a holy relic and a literal cornerstone that is part of Muslim worship. The origins of the dark stone remains a mystery to not only Muslims but geologists, scientists and historians alike.

17157blackstonefront.jpg


You did say what you believe about the two horned beast of Rev. 13 and little horn of Daniel 7 and 8 BUT!

You don't use scripture as evidence to show me, "how you arrive at your conclusions?"

You quote a verse and then say, "this is what is means." Show me WHY it means what it means!?
The "little horn" of Daniel 8 doesn't come from the Roman empire but from the Grecian Empire!

Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Daniel 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

BUT YOU believe the 'little horn' comes from a revived Roman Empire i.e. the U.S.A.!

Those contradictions should cause you to reconsider what you believe!
 
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kaoticprofit

Active Member
I forgot one...


You keep repeating the same meaningless gibberish. I never said all these verses are referring to a future global government. You created this criteria yourself, to have something to argue against. I said the gospel is global in nature, which it is, and which the verses provided prove. You are simply denying that this has anything to do with the future global power and influence of Babylon the Great predicted in the bible. Which is ridiculous. As though the giving of the gospel to all the world could be disconnected from the decisions made during such an event. Not!

It's not meaningless. You're the one equating the spread of the gospel with the global empire of the anti-Christ. YOU CREATED IT! All I did was show you why there will not be a global empire of the man of sin. I never once mentioned the gospel as part of globalism. You're the one who says there will be and use several verses out of context concerning the gospel to support your unfounded claims of globalism!
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
I forgot one...

It's not meaningless. You're the one equating the spread of the gospel with the global empire of the anti-Christ. YOU CREATED IT! All I did was show you why there will not be a global empire of the man of sin. I never once mentioned the gospel as part of globalism. You're the one who says there will be and use several verses out of context concerning the gospel to support your unfounded claims of globalism!
I have no idea what you are addressing with this post, can you provide some context?

Concerning the previous post, the context is this, it seems you did not read my earlier post, or did not understand what I was referring to...I posted a link to my blog which outlines my understanding of the position of USA and Israel wrt to the prophecy of Daniel and Revelation...you then responded by implying my interpretation is typical of the protestant traditional interpretation. Now I have never seen a traditional interpretation that accepts the USA as the second beast/little horn, nor that present day Israel is the provincial headquarters for the first beast......and thus ask for your evidence to show this since the dialogue so far shows you are implying my understanding is the same as the traditional?
 

kaoticprofit

Active Member
I have no idea what you are addressing with this post, can you provide some context?

Concerning the previous post, the context is this, it seems you did not read my earlier post, or did not understand what I was referring to...I posted a link to my blog which outlines my understanding of the position of USA and Israel wrt to the prophecy of Daniel and Revelation...you then responded by implying my interpretation is typical of the protestant traditional interpretation. Now I have never seen a traditional interpretation that accepts the USA as the second beast/little horn, nor that present day Israel is the provincial headquarters for the first beast......and thus ask for your evidence to show this since the dialogue so far shows you are implying my understanding is the same as the traditional?

You said you posted a link to your blog. Where? It's not in the OP and I looked on your other replies and didn't see it. I'm familiar with the theory and most of my responses were directed to the OP and the its title.
You are still welcome to post ONE verse of prophecy that identifies Rome as the harlot or end-time beast.

Most interpreters since the reformation have used the legs of iron and toes mingled with iron and clay of Daniel 2 as their "scriptural evidence." But many have since changed their mind after seeing that the word 'mingled' is the word 'arab.'

I didn't find your link on this thread but I'll look again........this time on your profile..
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
You said you posted a link to your blog. Where? It's not in the OP and I looked on your other replies and didn't see it. I'm familiar with the theory and most of my responses were directed to the OP and the its title.
You are still welcome to post ONE verse of prophecy that identifies Rome as the harlot or end-time beast.

Most interpreters since the reformation have used the legs of iron and toes mingled with iron and clay of Daniel 2 as their "scriptural evidence." But many have since changed their mind after seeing that the word 'mingled' is the word 'arab.'

I didn't find your link on this thread but I'll look again........this time on your profile..
The link was there in post 26 of this thread....here it is again....[url=http://bendhyan.wordpress.com/2013/08/26/who-is-the-beast-that-deceives-the-whole-world-in-bible-prophecy/]Who is the beast that deceives the whole world in bible prophecy?[/URL]

...and subsequently I was dismayed to hear you accusing me of having accepted what the "Protestant Prophecy Experts" have been teaching for decades and in some cases centuries?

On edit...in case you still have difficulties...here is a copy...
Who is the beast that deceives the whole world in bible prophecy

angel.jpg

Here is a brief outline of my understanding of the meaning of the Bible Beasts of Daniel and Revelation in the context of here and now.

Now a warning,,..many of you may find it hard to believe that western world powers, ie. USA and Europe, with the main stream media as its mouthpiece, could be the greatest evil this world has ever witnessed (Rev. 13:7-8), but keep an open mind and you may ‘see’ who the Beast really is?

And the big surprise for the reader is when the mystery of who and what is the earthly powers referred to in Daniel 11:45 reveals itself.

The first beast is Babylon (now Iraq). The second beast is Persia (now Iran). The third beast with four heads is Greece, Egypt, Assyria (now Syria, Lebanon), and Rome (now Italy).
The fourth beast with a head of ten horns is Europe (the ten horns are ten main imperial colonizing nations, England, Portugal, Spain, France, Italy, Germany, Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark, Austria).

Now consider in Daniel 7:8 “I considered the (ten) horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.”

map1750.gif
Now prior to becoming a single nation, the present land that now constitutes the mainland US states once belonged to three of the horns of the fourth beast, Spain, France and England. See map above. As we know from history, the three big horns were sent packing, and the little horn went on to dominate them. After the second world war the little horn became leader (militarily) of all of western Europe….until now! The little horn is the USA.

Now these four phases of history of the beasts of Daniel that lead up to the present time are described using different metaphors in other chapters, so for example, the last ‘kingdom’ of the beast with ten horns led by the the little horn is the kingdom of iron mixed with miry clay of Chapter two, and the King of the North of Chapter 11, etc.. And again, a different metaphor is used in Book of Revelations for the last beast, it is the seventh head, that did not yet exist at that time of John, of a seven headed beast, and the little horn of Daniel is described in Revelation as a beast having two little horns like a lamb.

The last point of interest for now is the end of Daniel Chapter 11 (Verse 45), because that fulfils the prophecy of Daniel and it is here that the last Beast will ‘run out of time’ coincident with the start of events described in Chapter 12. Now that which is set up between Jerusalem and the sea is the Zionist state of Israel. It was set up by the Beast/King of the North through the United Nations in 1948. One of the horns of the Beast (Britain) had already ruled the area as a mandate from the League of Nations and now stood aside to allow the Beast/King of the North to take possession.

If I am correct, present day Zionist Israel is soon to be no more, for the beast’s nature and destiny is to war on until its end .

I suggest we should keep an eye on events in Syria as it could well be the trigger for something of Daniel 11:45 prophetic end time proportions.

8lif.jpg
 
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kaoticprofit

Active Member
I suggest that you get what is called a sensible hermeneutic. No wonder you call my questions "SILLY!"

You quote a couple of verses and then you tell me what you believe. You don't do a word study on the text. Anybody can quote a verse and say, "this is what it means." And that's exactly what you do. You don't tell me how you arrive at your conclusions. You don't use any supportive scriptural evidence to support anything! You quote Daniel 11. The nations mentioned in Daniel 11 are Greece, Persia, Egypt, Chittim, Edom, Moab, Ammon, Lybia, and Ethiopia. How you interpret any of this to be America is in my view just bad interpretational skills. Like I said in an earlier post. The way you interpret prophecy you can make Hitler look like a saint!

You can't and won't answer any of my many questions because "you can't" and they debunk your theory!

You are still very welcome to answer any of my previous questions, and very welcome to post ONE verse of prophecy that positively identifies Rome or the U.S. as the harlot or any end-time beast.
 
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Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
I don't tell anyone what to believe, I merely present my own present understanding, an understanding that has nothing to do with any theory. Fyi, I don't do belief in my religious practice, it is all about actual realization.

I don't have any questions to you because your interpretation is not consistent with my present understanding...simple as that.

If your understanding of the Revelation/Daniel prophecy is truly correct, it is enough, your Divine reward will be commensurate with your good work...you do not need the acceptance of mere mortals...that's ego stuff.

God bless... :namaste
 

kaoticprofit

Active Member
But don't we all want to obtain the truth?

A good method of interpretation starts with the willingness to change you mind about what you believe when the evidence justifies it. The strongest evidence there is to interpret scripture comes from the Greek and Hebrew lexicons. They are probably the best tools among a few to figure out the "the evidence" and the TRUTH. We should always do a word study of a text if we're really serious about it.

The strange thing about many words used in prophecy is they are often used only once or twice in the bible. One example is the word 'arab.'

How do Arabs worship???

In every verse in the book of Revelation the word worship is 'proskuneo' which means....

to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence

among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence.

This is just another reason why I believe the false prophet will come from Iran.

So I accept what I see here and what I see is the precise way Muslim's worship.

The book of Habukkuk describes the goals of Islam and their way of worship.

They shall come all for violence: their faces shall sup up as the east wind, and they shall gather the captivity as the sand.

3559596.jpg


Hab 1:10
And they shall scoff at the kings, and the princes shall be a scorn unto them: they shall deride every strong hold; for they shall heap dust, and take it.
(they call it dying as a martyr.

An army is less effective than a suicide bomber when it comes to high-tech terrorism. A king may hold back an army but one jihadist can destroy many like the 911 terrorist did

Rev 9 also describes Islamic terrorism.

The bible clearly indicates that the entire ball of prophetic wax comes from the geographical area of the Grecian empire with Babylon as it's main culprit. Every nation mentioned in bible prophecy comes from the area of the Middle-East.

The two horned beast is the religious entity of the end-time demonic duo.

Rev. 13 is unusual in that it portrays two beast that compliment one another. The ten horned beast of Revelation 13 is either a separate/different beast than Revelation 17, or something that progressed into the beast of Rev. 17 and the harlot.

For ages, many believed that the locust of Revelation 9 are Islamic. I believe that the entire chapter of Revelation 9 describes terrorism and suicide bombers. Most people believe that the 200 million are an army. That's not so. They are either demons that are released or "jihadist."

"And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, (suicide vest)

...and of jacinth, (dark red)... and brimstone: (explosion) and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; (Babylonians) and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone."

John even tells us how many jihadist there are in the world when this happens.

"And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them."

For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails:

The only two places tails are mentioned are here and on the dragon of Rev. 12. Their mouth? Praying to Allah and communicating incognito..... and the devil responds)

"for their tails were like unto serpents," Tails and serpents are icons of the dragon and Lucifer.

"and had heads, and with them they do hurt." Heads could be symbolic of the people encouraging them to commit jihad. Look at the word "hurt" and apply it to a suicide bombing.

absolutely
to act unjustly or wickedly, to sin,
to be a criminal, to have violated the laws in some way
to do wrong
to do hurt
transitively
to do some wrong or sin in some respect
to wrong some one, act wickedly towards him
to hurt, damage, harm

"By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths."

I'm not sure of this is 1/3 of the entire earths population but one thing for sure it sounds like suicide bombers of all sorts and nuclear terrorism to me!

I have found that Christians just don't care about any evidence at all that goes against their pre-conceived ideas. It's honorable to see anyone on a public form admit they were wrong or that they made a mistake.

"Two horns like a lamb."

"Like a lamb." Like means similar to. This means the two horned beast has two sects and is similar to Christianity.
 
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