Contraception -- What have you done for me lately?

[Shadow Wolf]

Draka, I am a Christian. It's a very common belief among Christians (and many other religions as well) that sex should be between two married people only. I understand that you don't agree with that belief, and that's your perogative. You don't have to obey that "archaic" belief - a belief so common among so many different societies and religions that it has been upheld for most of man's history by the majority of civilization.

Other than the Abrahamic, and Christin Europe and America, can you please list such cultures and religions.

 

[painted wolf]

Draka, I am a Christian. It's a very common belief among Christians (and many other religions as well) that sex should be between two married people only. I understand that you don't agree with that belief, and that's your perogative. You don't have to obey that "archaic" belief - a belief so common among so many different societies and religions that it has been upheld for most of man's history by the majority of civilization.

You haven't studied many 'native' cultures.

Among some Nations here in the Americas wife stealing was a great past time and mark of honor. You wanted a woman with some experience, it showed she would make a good mother to your kids.

In fact there were often no ill repercussions for young men and women who explored their sexuality before marriage. Children were under no burden for being born outside of marriage.

Sex and children were seen as gifts from Creator, not a burden or job. It was something to enjoy not repress.

wa:do

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Oh, wow, this really isn't true at ALL. We have all sorts of ways to determine which very small window of opportunity there is each month. This isn't a thread about natural family planning, but if you're not all that familiar with it, I highly encourage you to simply google this subject. You'll be amazed at the various scientific ways (easy and affordable too!) that a couple can pinpoint fertility times.

Nearly anyone can do it, it's inexpensive, NATURAL so very healthy and non-intrusive, and it can work very well.

I'm familiar with natural family planning. For the purposes of what I'm talking about I don't think that anything you need a calendar or a basal thermometer to figure out counts as "apparent".

Also, NFP is normally used for one of two reasons:

- to increase a couple's odds of conception
- to prevent conception

How does that second use for NFP fit into the idea that it's the procreative potential of sex that is intrinsic to its importance?

 

[MoonWater]

I'm not saying people should stop having kids or anything nor do I begrudge large families. I personaly would love to have up to four kids if I can afford it(and I can convince the man who will hopefully be my husband one day to put up with that many). However any children beyond 1 or 2 that I have would most likely be adopted half because of overpopulation and half because there are just too many kids who need a good home now.

I think adoption is a terrific idea - good for you and I hope your future includes this.

Also I'm curious Kathryn just what did you hope to accomplish or "prove" by creating the scenario that you did?

I hoped to make people think a little outside their comfort zone. Sometimes the status quo needs to be challenged. I believe our society has bought into some very self destructive ideas.

As far as the racial groups I brought up - I was discussing basically the falling birth rate of the United States and those three racial groups are the three predominant groups in the US. My comments did not hide a more sinister concept.

I understand that. What I'm trying to figure out is what you feel these three racial groups are doing for your argument. Seems to me that these statistics could argue just as much in favor of encouraging blacks and hispanics to have smaller families and use birth control as much as encouraging whites to have larger families.

And there's really no need to "encourage people to consider having more children." I can assure that most if not all couples who have or desire to have children consider how many they want and whether or not they want more. Most decide they are just fine with 1-3 kids.

Wait a minute - if you believe fervently in something, don't you share your beliefs with others? If you believe, for instance, that a certain politician is the best candidate for President, don't you share that conviction with others in the hope that they will at least consider that person for the office? You can share a conviction with others without forcing them to adopt your same beliefs.

There are just a few ways we can change the world we live in significantly. One way is by sharing our ideas with others. We can do this in words and in our own actions. I sincerely believe that our declining birth rate is going to cause significant social problems in the next generation or two, and I will do what I can to reverse that trend. I think that's the socially responsible thing to do.

I'm not saying don't share your beliefs. The thing is there's a big difference between encouraging someone to vote for so and so and encouraging someone to have a larger family. When encouraging someone to vote for so and so you can explain why they think that person is the best candidate and all that and possibly sway their opinion. When it comes to encouraging a person to have a larger family you can relate your own experience but not much else and no amount of encouragment or argumentation is going to change their financial situation, what kind of time they have on their hands, how many children they feel comfortable with, or any of the number of other reasons that lead people to the decision of how many children they want. I think the two biggest reasons why most families only have 1-3 children is because that's all they want and/or they can't afford to have more. Neither of those are going to change with simple encouragment. besides, as I have said most people who have or want children have ALREADY CONSIDERED whether or not they want more, have considered just how many they want, and have decided to stick with 1-3

Okay... why? why NFP and not contraception? Why do you think NFP is better? Do have any arguments on which to base your assertion other than personal experience?

This sounds like a topic for another thread. But I'll give you my short answers. The first answers are in my opening post. Natural family planning isn't AS effective as more intrusive, unnatural forms of birth control. If used correctly, it's about 80 percent effective. So there's that 20 percent chance of conception vs a 4 percent or so chance. So I believe that chance alone creates a sexual environment that reinforces the principle between two people that sex isn't JUST for fun - that it's a large responsibility. I think this is a more healthy mindset - because sex IS a big responsibility. I think we've gotten very far away from that principle in our society.

I also think that it's a healthier option for both the man and the woman. That is, if the woman is healthy to begin with.

It's not for everyone. But I believe it's a great option for a lot of people who haven't seriously considered it yet.

if it's for another thread then why would you bring it up in the OP? Also birth control has been around for thousands of years, even the ancient egyptians had condoms made of animal skin. So I highly doubt they are the major contributor to the current view of sex being a recreational activity. I think that view mainly comes from the media which portrays it AS a "recreational activity". but as you said probably a topic for another thread.

Okay, I'm a little confused. Is this thread to debate natural family planning vs. artificial contraception or large families vs. small families, cause we seem to be switching back and forth between the two.

NFP is a part of the scenario I believe in. However, I agree that it should probably be on a new thread. You know how these threads are - sometimes they can stray off course and evolve in different directions.

Peace out!

that doesn't answer my question really. Are you saying that this thread is to debate large families vs. small families then? If so then why bring up NFP, What does NFP have to do at all with large families vs. small families. Unless one's method of birth control is to castrate themselves or cut out their uterus the birth control method used, whether NFP or contraceptives, won't change the number of children a family can have or wants to have. So why bring it up, why label the thread "contraception" in the first place?

on that note what does the "what have you done for me lately" bit have to do with the discussion as well?

 

[Draka]

Biology 101:

Not all women's cycles are the same and therefore do not all fit under the same guidelines for fertility times. Not every woman has an exactly 28 day cycle. Many women have irregular periods that fluctuate month to month. A few days here or there can make a huge difference when it comes to ovulation time. It's not like a woman is going to take ovulation tests every month to find out when her fertile period is. Not to mention that the time period to get pregnant is more than 2 days. You also have to take into account the lifespan of sperm and cross that with the days that the egg is present for fertilization. Because of all this, "natural birth control" is a myth. It is quite possible to luck out with timing when you have sex based on a woman's periods...especially if she is really regular...but it should by no means be considered a reliable form of birth control.

 

[Kathryn]

You haven't studied many 'native' cultures.

Among some Nations here in the Americas wife stealing was a great past time and mark of honor. You wanted a woman with some experience, it showed she would make a good mother to your kids.

In fact there were often no ill repercussions for young men and women who explored their sexuality before marriage. Children were under no burden for being born outside of marriage.

Sex and children were seen as gifts from Creator, not a burden or job. It was something to enjoy not repress.

wa:do

Please don't take this offensively, but you really don't know whether or not I have studied Native religions. I wasn't speaking about them in that post.

I know that monogamy and virginity before marriage are not norms universally. I never claimed that. However, they are very COMMON values in many different cultures throughout history. That was my point.

Personally I think wife stealing sounds horrible, by the way. Every culture we could name would have some strong points and some weak points.

 

[Kathryn]

Biology 101:

Not all women's cycles are the same and therefore do not all fit under the same guidelines for fertility times. Not every woman has an exactly 28 day cycle. Many women have irregular periods that fluctuate month to month. A few days here or there can make a huge difference when it comes to ovulation time. It's not like a woman is going to take ovulation tests every month to find out when her fertile period is.

Why not? There are some great, inexpensive ways out there to track fertility, readily available over the counter. Doesn't seem like much more hassle or expense than some other popular forms of artificial birth control.

Not to mention that the time period to get pregnant is more than 2 days. You also have to take into account the lifespan of sperm and cross that with the days that the egg is present for fertilization. Because of all this, "natural birth control" is a myth.

It's no myth - hundreds of thousands of couples worldwide use it effectively. You have about a 7 day period in which you should abstain each month.

It is quite possible to luck out with timing when you have sex based on a woman's periods...especially if she is really regular...but it should by no means be considered a reliable form of birth control.

No need to give me a biology lesson or a lesson on NFP by the way - I used that method myself and spaced my children just like little stepping stones. It worked great when I needed it to, and it was so easy to reverse that when we wanted to conceive, I got pregnant the first month every single time.

It does work well for some people. Why is that so difficult for you to accept? I'm not saying YOU do it - do what you want. But why discourage others who may find that it works very well for them?

 

[Kathryn]

BY THE WAY - I'm bored with this topic. I am uninterested in beating the same few questions out over and over again. I'm going to add a final few words and then exit this. If you want to continue to discuss this with me, feel free to send me a message. I will always respond well to civil conversation.

Here's my synopsis and I don't plan to visit this thread again:

1. I stand by my original post in it's entirity.

2. I believe fervently in the seriousness of the issue of our declining birth rate in the United States and I will continue to encourage people consider having larger families.

3. I believe that our culture has created an unhealthy concept of sex by reducing it to purely a recreational act and trying to reduce responsibility for the act itself and it's many consequences as much as possible. This saddens me.

4. I love the freedoms that are ours in the United States. If you don't agree with me on this, or any other topic, I love that we can debate our views without fear. I also believe that many moral issues are private decisions. I am a libertarian at heart and believe that ANYTHING that consenting adults want to do together, as long as no innocent parties are harmed, is their own business. That would include all sorts of sex that you or I may think personally is horribly wrong. It's your choice, and mine.

5. If you don't agree with me on encouraging larger families, or growing your own families, that's fine - I've already raised five children and so far all the married ones have joyously started having multiple children. The people who are most important to me are carrying on what I consider a fine tradition, and adding quite nicely to the United States population. Meanwhile, people who disagree with me are having fewer kids. Hey - this might work out after all!

Peace out and may each of you have a glorious holiday season with your families - large and small.

 

[darkendless]

BY THE WAY - I'm bored with this topic. I am uninterested in beating the same few questions out over and over again. I'm going to add a final few words and then exit this. If you want to continue to discuss this with me, feel free to send me a message. I will always respond well to civil conversation.

Here's my synopsis and I don't plan to visit this thread again:

1. I stand by my original post in it's entirity.

2. I believe fervently in the seriousness of the issue of our declining birth rate in the United States and I will continue to encourage people consider having larger families.

3. I believe that our culture has created an unhealthy concept of sex by reducing it to purely a recreational act and trying to reduce responsibility for the act itself and it's many consequences as much as possible. This saddens me.

4. I love the freedoms that are ours in the United States. If you don't agree with me on this, or any other topic, I love that we can debate our views without fear. I also believe that many moral issues are private decisions. I am a libertarian at heart and believe that ANYTHING that consenting adults want to do together, as long as no innocent parties are harmed, is their own business. That would include all sorts of sex that you or I may think personally is horribly wrong. It's your choice, and mine.

5. If you don't agree with me on encouraging larger families, or growing your own families, that's fine - I've already raised five children and so far all the married ones have joyously started having multiple children. The people who are most important to me are carrying on what I consider a fine tradition, and adding quite nicely to the United States population. Meanwhile, people who disagree with me are having fewer kids. Hey - this might work out after all!

Peace out and may each of you have a glorious holiday season with your families - large and small.

Sadly it will be people like you who will be the first to complain when we run out of food and have to fight over whats left :yes:

 

[Willamena]

by the way - i'm bored with this topic. (follows, a big long post)

lol

 

[Shadow Wolf]

2. I believe fervently in the seriousness of the issue of our declining birth rate in the United States and I will continue to encourage people consider having larger families.

A declining birth rate is a good thing. If fewer people are born, eventually the earth can support us all again.

3. I believe that our culture has created an unhealthy concept of sex by reducing it to purely a recreational act and trying to reduce responsibility for the act itself and it's many consequences as much as possible. This saddens me.

Having sex for pleasures sake is much, much older than the modern American culture. The early American settlers were the same way, their European ancestors, those in Shakespeare's days were very sexed up, and pretty every culture dating back to when man first walked has had sex for pleasure. Even the story of Moses proves this when it was stated sex outside of marriage is a sin. If people weren't doing it, then there couldn't have been a law made against it.

 

[Autodidact]

Oh, wow, this really isn't true at ALL. We have all sorts of ways to determine which very small window of opportunity there is each month. This isn't a thread about natural family planning, but if you're not all that familiar with it, I highly encourage you to simply google this subject. You'll be amazed at the various scientific ways (easy and affordable too!) that a couple can pinpoint fertility times.

Nearly anyone can do it, it's inexpensive, NATURAL so very healthy and non-intrusive, and it can work very well.

I practice Natural Family Planning. It's 100% successful. I recommend it to any woman who's interested. Let me know if you want to learn more.

 

[Darkwater]

I have been put under pressure to have a vasectomy for some years now,which I (obviously) disagree with.

Pressure is now off on this as I googled *dangers of vasectomy* & made my wife read these.heh heh.

So anyway I have 3 sons & still want to chase the ace ie have a daughter.My wife is in her mid 30's so there is still plenty of *time* should we both desire,although really it is her decision.....

I have never been with another woman since we married,which is special to me just her labido can drop away for years at a time with post natal depression,which maybe can be a natural contraceptive?

Her avoiding PND is my main worry right now,then maybe worry about sex(recreational or otherwise)....another concern being the existing kids in a *right* enviroment,loving & safe.

She has lots of girlfriends,just can't see her turning bi or lesbian(damn!)

I am ok with inter-racial sex & believe it is good for the genes to stay fresh & prevent in breeding.

Great Love

DW