Consciousness is NOT caused by the brain

[outhouse]

also

Sleep - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sleep is a naturally recurring state characterized by reduced or absent consciousness

 

[Storm]

thanks for the link, but I find this more descriptive

Why we lose consciousness in sleep

Why we lose consciousness in sleep

The relative decline of activity in the "default mode network" during sleep explains, why we are not capable of conscious perception during sleep.

You're still ignoring the reality that the word has more than one meaning. This is a useless and dishonest tactic that serves only to derail the thread into semantic quibbling.

Personally, I'd rather discuss the actual topic.

 

[Quintessence]

Eh, I'm not going to argue this topic. It's not in my field as a scientist, and the problem I see going on here with Surya's argument is probably going to fall on deaf ears if I explain it. It suffices to say that how correlation and causation are treated in science is being either misused or misunderstood here. It's an easy mistake, so it's quite understandable.

 

[1137]

When is the last time you truly connected or interacted with a rock? Never, you say? Well if consciousness is fundamental it is a part of absolutely everything, yet we only see it in things with brains.

I could give a real argument, but why bother?

 

[Storm]

When is the last time you truly connected or interacted with a rock? Never, you say? Well if consciousness is fundamental it is a part of absolutely everything, yet we only see it in things with brains.

I could give a real argument, but why bother?

See? Or acknowledge/ comprehend?

 

[outhouse]

You're still ignoring the reality that the word has more than one meaning. This is a useless and dishonest tactic that serves only to derail the thread into semantic quibbling.

Personally, I'd rather discuss the actual topic.

I understand all to well "altered states", which all show no correlation to a mythical spirit, and everything to do with the fact that the brain does control certain amount's of consciousness all the way to "absent".

I understand there are unknown aspects of the mechanics, but we cannot attribute a spirit in the lack of absense of knowledge .


what do you personally make of all this, conscious = spirit thing?

 

[Storm]

I understand all to well "altered states", which all show no correlation to a mythical spirit, and everything to do with the fact that the brain does control certain amount's of consciousness all the way to "absent".

I understand there are unknown aspects of the mechanics, but we cannot attribute a spirit in the lack of absense of knowledge .


what do you personally make of all this, conscious = spirit thing?

Thank you.

Please define 'spirit,' which is a very vague word. I don't want to guess wrong and end up arguing a strawman.

 

[1137]

Say the most basic aspect of reality is conscious in some respect. It chose to form this reality and interpenetrate it to experience through it or for some reason we cannot comprehend. Even this doesn't imply the same kind of consciousness I have. A rock is not conscious in the same respect we are, even if some panendeistic force "creates" and interpenetrates it. That conscious panendeistic force is going to be beyond the our capability of thought anyways.

 

[Storm]

Say the most basic aspect of reality is conscious in some respect. It chose to form this reality and interpenetrate it to experience through it or for some reason we cannot comprehend. Even this doesn't imply the same kind of consciousness I have. A rock is not conscious in the same respect we are, even if some panendeistic force "creates" and interpenetrates it. That conscious panendeistic force is going to be beyond the our capability of thought anyways.

Um... duh?

Forgive me, but who hear has ever claimed that a rock, tree, or earthworm is conscious in the same way people are? Wait, wait, don't answer that.

Let me rephrase. Is that really what you think *I* assert, and if so, what did I say that gave you that impression? Because I find it a ******* stupid argument, and I never made it intentionally.

 

[fallingblood]

thanks for the link, but I find this more descriptive

Why we lose consciousness in sleep

Why we lose consciousness in sleep

The relative decline of activity in the "default mode network" during sleep explains, why we are not capable of conscious perception during sleep.

It's talking about conscious perception. There is a difference between conscious perception, and consciousness. Even your second link shows that it is a reduced (or possibly absent) state of consciousness. However, if we are to use Wiki as a credible source, it says that normal sleep is still a state of consciousness (Unconsciousness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

--------

I think one of the problems with a topic like this is that there are connotations that are associated with consciousness and unconsciousness that simply are not accurate when speaking of the terms in their intended meanings. That, and it is a complex subject, so easy answers are not going to cut it.

I think the argument in the OP is very interesting. I don't know if I fully agree, but it is intriguing anyway. I think a problem though is that in the West, there has been a want to use science to explain everything definitely. The problem with this is that science can only get us so far. If consciousness is external, would science even be able to detect it? I don't know.

 

[1137]

Um... duh?

Forgive me, but who hear has ever claimed that a rock, tree, or earthworm is conscious in the same way people are? Wait, wait, don't answer that.

Let me rephrase. Is that really what you think *I* assert, and if so, what did I say that gave you that impression? Because I find it a ******* stupid argument, and I never made it intentionally.

You've been touchy lately. I didn't even have you in mind except I figured you'd agree. That was for the OP. Consciousness obviously comes from the brain, there's just possibly a completely different type of consciousness. He can have his beliefs without rejecting science.

 

[Storm]

Oh, minor complaint: panendeism is irrelevant to the subject, given that it's not the only group to assert fundamental consciousness, and nobody in the thread (or forum, I believe) is a panendeist.

/pedantic whine.

 

[outhouse]

Thank you.

Please define 'spirit,' which is a very vague word. I don't want to guess wrong and end up arguing a strawman.

hows about being conscious after death, will that work as a foundation for this experiment?

 

[Storm]

You've been touchy lately. I didn't even have you in mind except I figured you'd agree.

Sorry, I wasn't actually mad, so much as baffled. I also thought you were, in fact, addressing me. Miscommunication all round.

 

[Storm]

hows about being conscious after death, will that work as a foundation for this experiment?

Mmmmmmmm, no, I'm afraid not. The ideas are linked, yes, but take the example of the Christian cosmology. It asserts a supernatural seat of the personality unique to humanity, not fundamental consciousness.

 

[outhouse]

Mmmmmmmm, no, I'm afraid not. The ideas are linked, yes, but take the example of the Christian cosmology. It asserts a supernatural seat of the personality unique to humanity, not fundamental consciousness.

well then that only leaves OTB does it not?

 

[fallingblood]

well then that only leaves OTB does it not?

Or maybe another option that you simply haven't thought of? E

 

[Storm]

well then that only leaves OTB does it not?

I don't know what otb is.

 

[outhouse]

I don't know what otb is.

out of the body experience

 

[Storm]

out of the body experience

Also unrelated, I'm afraid. Fundamental consciousness isn't dependent on theology or paranormal phenomena. It's just the idea that some form of awareness is built into our reality. This can be rooted in natural or supernatural philosophy, and is not predicated on any particular event or category of events.

I don't even know what you're arguing anymore. Forget same page, we don't seem to be reading the same book!

Let's just start over, ok?

1) Kindly confirm or correct my understanding that you believe consciousness is solely a byproduct of the brain.

2) Please explain what you understand 'fundamental consciousness' to mean.

3) Are there any other ideas you can think of for the nature of consciousness (and I don't mean things you may agree with, just any idea you've heard)?

I'd also be happy to answer any questions you think will help us communicate. TIA.