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Communism and its Controversies

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hey everyone,

I hope you are all safe and as comfortable as can be expected at this time.

This is an absurd era of extremes and we are all finding ways to cope and adjust. I am currently taking a step back from the forum so I can give myself time and space to process many of the goings on, both online and offline. However, recognising the need for radical ideas and a re-evaluation for the status quo is far from rewarding when even the most basic truths are controversial and escape mutual understanding. We seem more divided than ever and, when it would be so much better for us to co-operate to ensure our common welfare and safety, it is frighteningly and frustratingly so.

Given that, it is tempting for me to hide from the tides of controversy, either offline or within the communist only sub-forum. Yet it would be far better to find more positive ways to engage online, given that it now has such a profound affect on our daily lives, thoughts and interactions even if we could escape the online world entirely.

Whilst I am not entirely alone in my interest in communism, I am probably one of the forums most vocal individuals on the subject even with my reservations. In the event I were to discover some untapped reservoir of enthusiasm for Marxist philosophy and, having considerable unexpected free time, were inclined to create content for the forum relating to it, what would you personally be most interested in, or believe to be of greatest benefit to the community as a whole?

These can be subjects you might wish to discuss in threads, whether it be about history or some need to understand the confusion of our times or an area you are unfamiliar with or curious about.

Working on some kind of writing which may benefit others, regardless of their agreement or disagreement of the topic, may give me something constructive and rewarding to do. It seems more creative than trying to ride the never-ending tides and storms of bad news, if you will.

Thoughts, comments and suggestions welcome. If you have a question, feel free to ask away. :)
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Hey everyone,

I hope you are all safe and as comfortable as can be expected at this time.

This is an absurd era of extremes and we are all finding ways to cope and adjust. I am currently taking a step back from the forum so I can give myself time and space to process many of the goings on, both online and offline. However, recognising the need for radical ideas and a re-evaluation for the status quo is far from rewarding when even the most basic truths are controversial and escape mutual understanding. We seem more divided than ever and, when it would be so much better for us to co-operate to ensure our common welfare and safety, it is frighteningly and frustratingly so.

Given that, it is tempting for me to hide from the tides of controversy, either offline or within the communist only sub-forum. Yet it would be far better to find more positive ways to engage online, given that it now has such a profound affect on our daily lives, thoughts and interactions even if we could escape the online world entirely.

Whilst I am not entirely alone in my interest in communism, I am probably one of the forums most vocal individuals on the subject even with my reservations. In the event I were to discover some untapped reservoir of enthusiasm for Marxist philosophy and, having considerable unexpected free time, were inclined to create content for the forum relating to it, what would you personally be most interested in, or believe to be of greatest benefit to the community as a whole?

These can be subjects you might wish to discuss in threads, whether it be about history or some need to understand the confusion of our times or an area you are unfamiliar with or curious about.

Working on some kind of writing which may benefit others, regardless of their agreement or disagreement of the topic, may give me something constructive and rewarding to do. It seems more creative than trying to ride the never-ending tides and storms of bad news, if you will.

Thoughts, comments and suggestions welcome. If you have a question, feel free to ask away. :)

If you wanted to convince someone to become a communist, what would you tell them?
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If you wanted to convince someone to become a communist, what would you tell them?

Be honest with yourself and nice to each other (at least as much as possible). Follow the evidence where ever it leads you and ask questions fearlessly. Everything else generally follows. :)
 
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What are your views on how communism can be scaled?

For example, a small-scale commune based on personal relationships can work well, but the dynamics that enable that to work do not exist when scaled to a national level.

Is the problem of scaling intractable?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you wanted to convince someone to become a communist, what would you tell them?
That the values espoused by communism are not inconsistent with "American values."
That the communist criticism of capitalism and its exploitation of the common people are largely correct.
That the prosperity America enjoyed in the 20th century came at the expense of other peoples around the world.
That America's decline, loss of jobs, loss of middle class, social stratification and income inequality are the result of right-wing, Republican initiatives: "Reaganomics" and Neoliberal economics.

America isn't just a failing state, it is a failed experiment
France's COVID-19 failures are the result of decades of austerity
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
What are your views on how communism can be scaled?

For example, a small-scale commune based on personal relationships can work well, but the dynamics that enable that to work do not exist when scaled to a national level.

Is the problem of scaling intractable?

I wouldn't say the issue of scale and organisation is intractable, but it is dependent on a particular phase of development. As technologies change, so our way of organisation may alter accordingly.

small-scale communes are generally a feature of anarchist-communism, often inspired by agrarian, pre-industrial and peasent communities. When communism is applied big nation-states such as the U.S.S.R and China, it is generally with an eye for industrialisation and the transformation of society away from traditional patterns of life and community behaviour.

As we industrialise our organisation is then under more conscious control becoming a specialised function of a handful of people and that entails the dangers of top-down command structures and the bureaucratic centralisation of power. So the commune approach has strong limitations. Maybe we should find a way that combines the best features of both.

Whilst bureaucracy isn't inevitable as a hierarchical organisation in all societies but is a feature of industrial and more technologically advanced societies, we have yet to perfect a system of social organisation that can combine advanced technology and the level of unity and cohesion necessary to organise a national economic plan or democratically administer a state or society.

perhaps in the next few decades, we may see the application of computers to planning and robotics to production that this "industrial-bureaucratic" method becomes redundant. Or else online communities develop in such a way as to enhance democratic participation in economic and political affairs.

We aren't that far off being able to hold elections or referendums online, so long as everyone has internet access. Coronavirus may force our hand so we experiment with virtual conventions for the Democratic Party (as Joe Biden suggested) or virtual parliaments and congresses.

On reddit, there are some communities that simulate US and UK politics, or try to administer the subreddit itself by voting and election of moderators (mainly for fun and with hefty amounts of memes). I'm on the U.S. one but the trolling, toxicity, turnover of new members and rate of burnout is high. I'm on the upper end of the age range at 30. It's a young group (mainly teenagers and students in their twenties), but some members have returned later and used the skills they've learned from the simulation for election campaigning in the real world. Others are in political parties in real life and bring their experiences to the stimulation so it's a two-way street. However It's still in its infancy and the generation growing up now will use this technology and there experiences as new forms of political engagement developing as the Internet collapses our sense of distance with each other. Reddit contains subtexts for various election campaigns and the Sanders, Biden and Yang groups have been active. maybe a Facebook sized version will develop. There are real dangers with hacking and cyberwarfare in screwing these up (as Russian interference in the U.S. Election speaks to) but I expect it will become much more normal in my lifetime.

Communism will change to reflect these technologies and there does appear to be a great deal of tension between the "old" centralised party structures and the "new" online communities of sympathisers. The latter are very good at giving people access to new ideas, information and communities but still haven't demonstrated clear leadership and organisational potential (or the level of dedication, consistency and quality of discussion to progressively educate and improve its members and their activism). It's something to watch as the style of activism changes to intergrate the new technologies as people find creative ways to use them.
 
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joe1776

Well-Known Member
Hey everyone,

I hope you are all safe and as comfortable as can be expected at this time.

This is an absurd era of extremes and we are all finding ways to cope and adjust. I am currently taking a step back from the forum so I can give myself time and space to process many of the goings on, both online and offline. However, recognising the need for radical ideas and a re-evaluation for the status quo is far from rewarding when even the most basic truths are controversial and escape mutual understanding. We seem more divided than ever and, when it would be so much better for us to co-operate to ensure our common welfare and safety, it is frighteningly and frustratingly so.

Given that, it is tempting for me to hide from the tides of controversy, either offline or within the communist only sub-forum. Yet it would be far better to find more positive ways to engage online, given that it now has such a profound affect on our daily lives, thoughts and interactions even if we could escape the online world entirely.

Whilst I am not entirely alone in my interest in communism, I am probably one of the forums most vocal individuals on the subject even with my reservations. In the event I were to discover some untapped reservoir of enthusiasm for Marxist philosophy and, having considerable unexpected free time, were inclined to create content for the forum relating to it, what would you personally be most interested in, or believe to be of greatest benefit to the community as a whole?

These can be subjects you might wish to discuss in threads, whether it be about history or some need to understand the confusion of our times or an area you are unfamiliar with or curious about.

Working on some kind of writing which may benefit others, regardless of their agreement or disagreement of the topic, may give me something constructive and rewarding to do. It seems more creative than trying to ride the never-ending tides and storms of bad news, if you will.

Thoughts, comments and suggestions welcome. If you have a question, feel free to ask away. :)
Laika, I have a suggestion. It's been years since I've read Marxist philosophy. If you can find an online source that summarizes your views well, link me to it. I'll read it and post my thoughts to you in this thread or in any forum you like. Then, we can discuss/debate the topic.

What do you think?
 
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Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Be honest with yourself and nice to each other (at least as much as possible). Follow the evidence where ever it leads you and ask questions fearlessly. Everything else generally follows. :)

I suppose what I am really asking is how would communism benefit me?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
There is a ton of deliberately false information and misrepresentation being proffered routinely about the socioeconomic phenomenon labeled "communism". And a big part of the problem is that in the last 100 years, there have been several nations calling themselves "communist" when they are not. And because these nations were considered enemies of modern western nations, and because modern western nations tend to be capitalist and therefor antithetical to socialist or communist ideals, the mere mention of socialism or communism invites all manner of insane invective.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I suppose what I am really asking is how would communism benefit me?

The short answer is that it would be like living in the star trek universe, where money has been abolished, there is an abundance of material goods and you are free to do basically everything else as long as it doesn’t hurt someone. Communism and science fiction have considerable overlap, with many left-wing writers trying to portray their beliefs (H.G. Wells being a socialist for example), so many of the utopian visions of society from the 1950’s based on advanced technology and science echo those ideas. But science fiction was also a battlefield in the Cold War. The fear of socialist totalitarianism in science fictions goes back to at least the 1920’s, with George Orwell's 1984 being published at the start of the cold war in 1948. Since about the 1980’s science fiction has changed and you started seeing more dystopian, apocalyptic and post-apocalyptic stuff. That shift reflects the decline in socialism and communism as people felt forced to imagine capitalism extending indefinitely in to the future, with all its dangers. Star trek: the next generation resisted that trend and so still had many utopian themes even in the 1990s. As an aside, these literary trends reflect many of the political debates over capitalism vs. Communism and which society would advance to make people most free, happy, prosperous.

In theory, communism is a classless and stateless society. Marxism holds that these conditions are attained after a revolution overthrowing the “capitalist” state and after a long period of transition (aka, socialism as the lower phase of communism) in which a super-abundance of goods and services are achieved and the end of the division of labour, means the end of classes, class struggle and the state.

Assuming you could teleport to such a communist society, either in the future or somewhere else in space, it would be one without war, hunger, and poverty. Automation would have rendered work unnecessary, so your time could be spent pursuing creative activities such as art, writing, music and sport rather than the acquisition of material things.

That also creates an environment for spiritual and personal growth whilst also pushing back against the authoritarianism and anti-scientific content of traditional religion. there is considerable debate on the extent to which religion is eliminated or transformed in to one guided by scientific/materialist/atheist principles and the U.S.S.R and other countries swung from violent opposition to relative tolerance and exploration of a “socialist spirituality”, rituals and traditions.

Outside of this, in the final stateless stage of communism, there is almost unlimited freedom based on the self-government of the community. the police, prisons and courts would have become unnecessary in the absence of socio-economic causes of crime. In theory, crime is rare or non-existent. Law would cease to exist in the way we understand it, but depending on your views, some combination of moral pressure and written rules with sanctions focusing mainly on re-education and rehabilitation would take its place.

The abolition of class means the elimination of racism and sexism as institutions and ideologies of oppression. Whilst different, men and women are equal and nations are self-governing and independent, perhaps integrating in to a world government at a later date. (Esperanto was popular in the U.S.S.R in the 1920’s as part of the search for an international language).

In terms of LGBT rights and sex, the history of communism is very ambiguous. The family could be reformed to exclude male domination, or could be replaced entirely with the community (or state) being responsible for child care. Issues regarding free love and the rights of people based on gender identity and sexual orientation were more typical of anarchism rather than marxism, In Russia in the 1920’s people experimented with extremely liberal attitudes on marriage, divorce, including the legalisation of homosexuality and abortion. Discussions amongst the communist youth organisation were often heavily focused on sex and young people experimented with communal living. Stalin’s rise to power marked a reversal on these changes and more traditional gender roles and a “socialist” nuclear family. What communists express on this the nature of sexual relations depends on the degree they interpret the family as a product of an economic division of labour (between male bread winners and female domestic house work) and whether more stable, biological factors are at play. These debates are on-going and reflect a generational divide in the movement with older members being more conservative and younger members, being the more liberal.

If society isn’t divided in to classes based on specialising in particular spheres of production there is no longer a sharp contrast between industry and agriculture, so you would see a radical re-working of the landscape with a kind of merging of cities and countryside in to something new. This idea was never really fully explored but was part of the reason for the Khmer Rouge forcibly relocated everyone out of the cities (with disastrous results) because they wanted to skip the transition period entirely.

So there are a range of material and spiritual benefits and the promise of greater freedom and democracy. But it comes with its dangers as well. The journey there isn’t straight-forward and the history of communism in the 20th century raises a great deal of moral and theoretical questions over how such a society is achieved and how long in to the future it would take for us to get there.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Laika, I have a suggestion. It's been years since I've read Marxist philosophy. If you can find an online source that summarizes your views well, link me to it. I'll read it and post my thoughts to you in this thread or in any forum you like. Then, we can discuss/debate the topic.

What do you think?

It is actually easier for me to point you to a single source which argues against my understanding of communism than for it. The "Managerial Revolution" was written by James Burnham in the middle of the second world war. What Burnham does is present a very plausible counter-argument point-by-point rejecting traditional Marxist views about the inevitability of a socialist revolution and that socialism necessarily means working class rule.

Burnham argues that the development of production has led to the formation of a class of managers who organise the production process independent of both the capitalist class and the working class. So the managers now have control over the means of production. Using the working class as the means to seize state power and eliminate the capitalists, the managers then claim collective ownership under the guise of "socialism". He then makes connections between "Socialism" in the U.S.S.R to Nazi Germany and the New Deal in America in order to argue that it is creating a new exploiting society based on the totalitarian rule of the managerial class. Many of those ideas are basically repeated throughout anti-communist literature but in a less coherent and comprehensive way. (In case you are wondering, yes, these ideas had a direct influence of George Orwell when he wrote 1984.) Here's the link:

The Managerial Revolution : Burnham James : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

So if I had a on-one-one debate and who more or less repeated Burnahm's views, I'd say there is a 90-95% chance I'm going to end up on the losing side. The best I could do (I think) is argue someone to a standstill in a very close draw or stalemate. Burnham's argument is simple, clear and compelling and you have to be really, really good to argue against his position point-by-point.

And I'm just not that good. That's not what I want to say, but it is the truth at least. :D

If you want to talk about communism, I can handle answering your questions. But Burnham's arguments have made such a mess of my own beliefs, that I couldn't present anything as coherent as I'd like in a single document to summarise them. The one plus is that it means I can spot where the weak-points are and so I have something to work around and work towards.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
It is actually easier for me to point you to a single source which argues against my understanding of communism than for it. The "Managerial Revolution" was written by James Burnham in the middle of the second world war. What Burnham does is present a very plausible counter-argument point-by-point rejecting traditional Marxist views about the inevitability of a socialist revolution and that socialism necessarily means working class rule.

Burnham argues that the development of production has led to the formation of a class of managers who organise the production process independent of both the capitalist class and the working class. So the managers now have control over the means of production. Using the working class as the means to seize state power and eliminate the capitalists, the managers then claim collective ownership under the guise of "socialism". He then makes connections between "Socialism" in the U.S.S.R to Nazi Germany and the New Deal in America in order to argue that it is creating a new exploiting society based on the totalitarian rule of the managerial class. Many of those ideas are basically repeated throughout anti-communist literature but in a less coherent and comprehensive way. (In case you are wondering, yes, these ideas had a direct influence of George Orwell when he wrote 1984.) Here's the link:

The Managerial Revolution : Burnham James : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

So if I had a on-one-one debate and who more or less repeated Burnahm's views, I'd say there is a 90-95% chance I'm going to end up on the losing side. The best I could do (I think) is argue someone to a standstill in a very close draw or stalemate. Burnham's argument is simple, clear and compelling and you have to be really, really good to argue against his position point-by-point.

And I'm just not that good. That's not what I want to say, but it is the truth at least. :D

If you want to talk about communism, I can handle answering your questions. But Burnham's arguments have made such a mess of my own beliefs, that I couldn't present anything as coherent as I'd like in a single document to summarise them. The one plus is that it means I can spot where the weak-points are and so I have something to work around and work towards.
OK, thanks for the link. I'lll get back to you.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
The short answer is that it would be like living in the star trek universe, where money has been abolished, there is an abundance of material goods and you are free to do basically everything else as long as it doesn’t hurt someone. Communism and science fiction have considerable overlap, with many left-wing writers trying to portray their beliefs (H.G. Wells being a socialist for example), so many of the utopian visions of society from the 1950’s based on advanced technology and science echo those ideas. But science fiction was also a battlefield in the Cold War. The fear of socialist totalitarianism in science fictions goes back to at least the 1920’s, with George Orwell's 1984 being published at the start of the cold war in 1948. Since about the 1980’s science fiction has changed and you started seeing more dystopian, apocalyptic and post-apocalyptic stuff. That shift reflects the decline in socialism and communism as people felt forced to imagine capitalism extending indefinitely in to the future, with all its dangers. Star trek: the next generation resisted that trend and so still had many utopian themes even in the 1990s. As an aside, these literary trends reflect many of the political debates over capitalism vs. Communism and which society would advance to make people most free, happy, prosperous.

In theory, communism is a classless and stateless society. Marxism holds that these conditions are attained after a revolution overthrowing the “capitalist” state and after a long period of transition (aka, socialism as the lower phase of communism) in which a super-abundance of goods and services are achieved and the end of the division of labour, means the end of classes, class struggle and the state.

Assuming you could teleport to such a communist society, either in the future or somewhere else in space, it would be one without war, hunger, and poverty. Automation would have rendered work unnecessary, so your time could be spent pursuing creative activities such as art, writing, music and sport rather than the acquisition of material things.

That also creates an environment for spiritual and personal growth whilst also pushing back against the authoritarianism and anti-scientific content of traditional religion. there is considerable debate on the extent to which religion is eliminated or transformed in to one guided by scientific/materialist/atheist principles and the U.S.S.R and other countries swung from violent opposition to relative tolerance and exploration of a “socialist spirituality”, rituals and traditions.

Outside of this, in the final stateless stage of communism, there is almost unlimited freedom based on the self-government of the community. the police, prisons and courts would have become unnecessary in the absence of socio-economic causes of crime. In theory, crime is rare or non-existent. Law would cease to exist in the way we understand it, but depending on your views, some combination of moral pressure and written rules with sanctions focusing mainly on re-education and rehabilitation would take its place.

The abolition of class means the elimination of racism and sexism as institutions and ideologies of oppression. Whilst different, men and women are equal and nations are self-governing and independent, perhaps integrating in to a world government at a later date. (Esperanto was popular in the U.S.S.R in the 1920’s as part of the search for an international language).

In terms of LGBT rights and sex, the history of communism is very ambiguous. The family could be reformed to exclude male domination, or could be replaced entirely with the community (or state) being responsible for child care. Issues regarding free love and the rights of people based on gender identity and sexual orientation were more typical of anarchism rather than marxism, In Russia in the 1920’s people experimented with extremely liberal attitudes on marriage, divorce, including the legalisation of homosexuality and abortion. Discussions amongst the communist youth organisation were often heavily focused on sex and young people experimented with communal living. Stalin’s rise to power marked a reversal on these changes and more traditional gender roles and a “socialist” nuclear family. What communists express on this the nature of sexual relations depends on the degree they interpret the family as a product of an economic division of labour (between male bread winners and female domestic house work) and whether more stable, biological factors are at play. These debates are on-going and reflect a generational divide in the movement with older members being more conservative and younger members, being the more liberal.

If society isn’t divided in to classes based on specialising in particular spheres of production there is no longer a sharp contrast between industry and agriculture, so you would see a radical re-working of the landscape with a kind of merging of cities and countryside in to something new. This idea was never really fully explored but was part of the reason for the Khmer Rouge forcibly relocated everyone out of the cities (with disastrous results) because they wanted to skip the transition period entirely.

So there are a range of material and spiritual benefits and the promise of greater freedom and democracy. But it comes with its dangers as well. The journey there isn’t straight-forward and the history of communism in the 20th century raises a great deal of moral and theoretical questions over how such a society is achieved and how long in to the future it would take for us to get there.

I can see in a society of abundant resources there is no need for people to go out of their way to horde resources. We just never seem to reach the level of abundance required for a Star Trek society. We always run out of resources which ends up requiring strict control over the resources.

My concern would be the ability of communism to achieve that abundance.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
...If you want to talk about communism, I can handle answering your questions. But Burnham's arguments have made such a mess of my own beliefs, that I couldn't present anything as coherent as I'd like in a single document to summarise them. The one plus is that it means I can spot where the weak-points are and so I have something to work around and work towards.
I downloaded Burnham's arguments, but for complicated reasons, I couldn't work from them. So, let's see if we can generate a useful discussion starting with what I think I now about Marxism, a few basics.

As I understand his philosophy, economic needs, according to Marx, are the basis of all societal action. The needs need to be determined, then the system would be built to provide it.

I agree. The primary task of governing should be to provide all of its cooperative citizens with the essential needs to survive and thrive. Those basic needs are shelter, food and a safe environment. It should not be the task of government to provide highly intelligent, arrogant people with the opportunity to prove their superiority by attaining material wealth and power.

A society is cooperative endeavor. Economic cooperation not competition will work. Citizens born with the gift of high intelligence, or any other gift, ought to use those gifts to enrich the lives of others in the spirit of cooperation.

I understand that Marx asserted that a society of classes will result in one class exploiting another.

I don't find it useful to think of humanity divided into classes. The concept of a classless society, I think, is simply another way of saying that all people are equal in human worth. If that's what Marx meant, I agree.

In order to measure something, we need standards. For measuring distance, for example the standards include miles, kilometers and so on. There are no fair standards for measuring human worth, thus the idea of a superior class is a fabrication.

We are born equal in human worth but not born equal in talents and abilities. Thus it is unfair to have people unable to compete to survive while others attain wealth. That unfairness in governing motivates protests which can turn violent.

IMO, the world is not yet ready for full-blown socialism (a cooperative economy) because we have not yet invented a government that is corruption-free and consistently makes the right decisions. Cooperative economies must be well-managed. If they are badly managed, then they fail economically like the Soviet Union, China, Cuba, Venezuela and Viet Nam.

Socialism is alive and well in other countries as part of a mixed economy.

I understand that Marx believed that a revolution would be necessary to bring about change.

I disagree. There are two factors involved in bringing about an effective change: The economic plan itself and the government that will manage it.

A violent revolution is pointless if it only replaces one ineffective government with another. We humans have yet to invent a government that wasn't both corrupt and inept. The best we can say is that some are not as rotten as others.

If the means of production are to be government controlled, that government needs to be able to consistently make the right decisions.

Using current technology, I think it's possible that we might have such a decision-making system in the not-too-distant future. Until then, the "mixed economies" are the best we can do.

Once created, an effective decision-making system can now go online in an advisory capacity only, the way that our President Franklin Roosevelt used his "brain trust" of economic advisors to ease the USA out of the great depression. When the nation reads the debate-discussion online, and learns to trust the decision-making process, I think a peaceful revolution will happen.
 
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Prim969

Member
Hey everyone,

I hope you are all safe and as comfortable as can be expected at this time.

This is an absurd era of extremes and we are all finding ways to cope and adjust. I am currently taking a step back from the forum so I can give myself time and space to process many of the goings on, both online and offline. However, recognising the need for radical ideas and a re-evaluation for the status quo is far from rewarding when even the most basic truths are controversial and escape mutual understanding. We seem more divided than ever and, when it would be so much better for us to co-operate to ensure our common welfare and safety, it is frighteningly and frustratingly so.

Given that, it is tempting for me to hide from the tides of controversy, either offline or within the communist only sub-forum. Yet it would be far better to find more positive ways to engage online, given that it now has such a profound affect on our daily lives, thoughts and interactions even if we could escape the online world entirely.

Whilst I am not entirely alone in my interest in communism, I am probably one of the forums most vocal individuals on the subject even with my reservations. In the event I were to discover some untapped reservoir of enthusiasm for Marxist philosophy and, having considerable unexpected free time, were inclined to create content for the forum relating to it, what would you personally be most interested in, or believe to be of greatest benefit to the community as a whole?

These can be subjects you might wish to discuss in threads, whether it be about history or some need to understand the confusion of our times or an area you are unfamiliar with or curious about.

Working on some kind of writing which may benefit others, regardless of their agreement or disagreement of the topic, may give me something constructive and rewarding to do. It seems more creative than trying to ride the never-ending tides and storms of bad news, if you will.

Thoughts, comments and suggestions welcome. If you have a question, feel free to ask away. :)
Laika your thoughts on the success of communism in China when compared to Russia. Mao seemed to embrace aspects of capitalism in his later yrs more so when China and America came to a better understanding in the early 70’s and even after chairmen Mao left us the party continued to follow on with that policy to be what it is now. Yet Russia even with its many foreign aid packages could never achieve that success through it’s 70 yrs of government until it’s final demise .So what was the difference you think
 
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Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Laika your thoughts on the success of communism in China when compared to Russia. Mao seemed to embrace aspects of capitalism in his later yrs more so when China and America came to a better understanding in the early 70’s and even after chairmen Mao left us the party continued to follow on with that policy to be what it is now. Yet Russia even with its many foreign aid packages could never achieve that success through it’s 70 yrs of government until it’s final demise .So what was the difference you think

I'm fairly good with Soviet history but not quite so familiar with China beyond an outline. But I'll have a go answering this one.

China's path to becoming a people's republic was much longer and harder than the Soviets. The Chinese had to endure decades of civil war culminating in the conflict between the Communists and the Nationalists (Kuomintang). Depending on your view, China continues to be at civil war as the Nationalist fled to Taiwan and Mainland Communist China continues to claim it as there own (in much the same way north and south Korea were divided in 1948). I'm not familiar with this part of the history, but for the communist party to survive at this time as a faction in the civil war would have taken considerable skill. I've often read western authors praise Mao for his leadership in the civil war and the early years of the formation of the people republic, but then say it might have been better if he hadn't followed the radical path of the great leap forward and the cultural revolution later.

I believe that the Chinese did keep more aspects of capitalism than the Soviet did. I think that was part of Mao's belief that the "national" bourgeoisie was progressive and so could perform a revolutionary role in China (as part of New Democracy). So it embraced the more strict understanding of socialism much later and was able to turn back with Deng Xio Peng's economic reforms in 1978.

That's just a hunch really, but you'd have to take in to account the cultural revolution and the great leap forward as incredibly aggressive moves towards a socialist economy. Deng Xio Peng himself was denounced as a "capitalist roader" and "rightist" during the cultural revolution, so later history could be said to have validated that depending how you want to look at it. Technically you could say the Soviets began to reform earlier with de-stalinisation and that was what contributed to the Sino-Soviet split between the U.S.S.R and China (with the Soviet taking the more moderate route, whilst China took a hard-line position preserving Stalin's legacy and role in the international communist movement). The Ping-Pong diplomacy between Mao and Nixon during the Cultural Revolution is a very strange contrast (Nixon visited in 1972 whilst the Cultural Revolution didn't end until Mao's death in 1976).

The Chinese communist party was able to survive because it introduced economic reforms but didn't introduce political reforms. I believe there was a period of relative relaxation of political controls (the "Beijing Spring" in 1978-1979) but China pulled back and maintained communist party rule, whilst Gorbachev went all in and attempted major constitutional reforms and ended up having the military coup in 1991, only for the Soviet union to be dissolved and the communist party banned.

China has been immensely successful and has been the People's Republic for as long as the Soviets were around (71 years this year). So when historians come to write the history of communism in the future, they will probably focus a great deal more on China. The West tends to assume that Chinese communist party rule is inherently weak and unstable, but these are assumption that have been used over and over again, against the Soviets and other communist regimes. The Chinese path to western democracy is far from clear and the Soviets only got there because the Communist Party itself came to support it and led to its own liquidation. That doesn't look like what China will do and, at the rate we are going, may outlive the United States. I'm not sure about the very long-term future though and whether it will achieve full communism.

As I said, I'm not very clear on many of the details of Chinese history but have a vague overview of many of its main features, so I would be interested to have your input. :)
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I downloaded Burnham's arguments, but for complicated reasons, I couldn't work from them. So, let's see if we can generate a useful discussion starting with what I think I now about Marxism, a few basics.

Fair enough. I don't want to subject you to too much reading. :)

As I understand his philosophy, economic needs, according to Marx, are the basis of all societal action. The needs need to be determined, then the system would be built to provide it.
I agree. The primary task of governing should be to provide all of its cooperative citizens with the essential needs to survive and thrive. Those basic needs are shelter, food and a safe environment. It should not be the task of government to provide highly intelligent, arrogant people with the opportunity to prove their superiority by attaining material wealth and power.

A society is cooperative endeavor. Economic cooperation not competition will work. Citizens born with the gift of high intelligence, or any other gift, ought to use those gifts to enrich the lives of others in the spirit of cooperation.

Marxism is often equated with a form of "economic determinism", but actually it's a little more complicated. Marx believed that everything in human consciousness was determined by the material nature of reality and social relations. So that means religion, art, music, morality, literature are all reflections of reality within human consciousness. Applied to psychology, that means our dreams, sexual fantasies and the visions or hallucinations of mad people are also reflections of the material world. I'm not sure how they prove that, but that is how far they are willing to go.

It's worth keeping in mind that this approach means that Marxists tend to reject the idea of inborn "gifts" or "intelligence" and so reject the concept of individual genius. They take the view that the role of individuals in history is more of being the right person in the right place in the right time. If Napoleon had been killed early on in the battles of the French Revolutionary Wars, say in Italy in 1796, Marxists argue that someone else would have taken his place in the military coup in 1799 and become Emperor of France.

In more contemporary history, what they are saying is that even if you could go back in time and assassinate Hitler, Hitler wasn't a unique individual who caused historical events a certain way. So someone else would have stepped in to his shoes and performed the same role, maybe better or worse, and played out the historical laws that were operating for that time. So even when you get back to your present as a time traveller, only minor details of history may have changed but the big picture is relatively the same.

So, individuals intelligence can only be built on the basis of that already existing co-operation and the struggle of ordinary people to make historical events. Whilst your Napoleon's and Hitler's get the name recognition, it is in fact the rest of us who fight their wars, produce the armaments for their armies and keep the economy, society and culture going. The role of individuals isn't as great in history as we are told or first imagine. Individuals don't create events, but rather than serve as the figureheads for much larger historical forces (usually classes) which meant that, one way or another, those events were going to take place anyway.

I understand that Marx asserted that a society of classes will result in one class exploiting another.
I don't find it useful to think of humanity divided into classes. The concept of a classless society, I think, is simply another way of saying that all people are equal in human worth. If that's what Marx meant, I agree.

In order to measure something, we need standards. For measuring distance, for example the standards include miles, kilometers and so on. There are no fair standards for measuring human worth, thus the idea of a superior class is a fabrication.

We are born equal in human worth but not born equal in talents and abilities. Thus it is unfair to have people unable to compete to survive while others attain wealth. That unfairness in governing motivates protests which can turn violent.

IMO, the world is not yet ready for full-blown socialism (a cooperative economy) because we have not yet invented a government that is corruption-free and consistently makes the right decisions. Cooperative economies must be well-managed. If they are badly managed, then they fail economically like the Soviet Union, China, Cuba, Venezuela and Viet Nam.

Socialism is alive and well in other countries as part of a mixed economy.

In recent years, I've had to concede that I probably haven't believed as strongly in the existence of classes that Marxism would require. For instance, if "all history hitherto is the history of class struggles" that would mean that the history of religiousforums.com from 2004 to the present in 2020 is also a history of "class struggles". That's hard to square with the reality of individual members and staff. Whilst the notion of class and class conflict "works" on grand historical levels, it is much less clear how it works on the scale of individual and day-to-day decisions.

In terms of the role of the state, that is significant. The assumption is that the class nature of the socialist state acts as a sufficient safeguard to ensure it's "progressive" historical role. But then you get down to the level of individuals operating within it and the possibility of abuse of power, corruption, ideological fanaticism, and things start to unravel. The Soviets had this dilemma in that they blamed Stalin for his "excesses" as an individual due to the "cult of personality" but didn't hold Socialism or the Soviet state responsible. That's a bit of a hard thing to reconcile in Marxist theory and there appears to be some weaknesses on that area.

I understand that Marx believed that a revolution would be necessary to bring about change.
I disagree. There are two factors involved in bringing about an effective change: The economic plan itself and the government that will manage it.

A violent revolution is pointless if it only replaces one ineffective government with another. We humans have yet to invent a government that wasn't both corrupt and inept. The best we can say is that some are not as rotten as others.

If the means of production are to be government controlled, that government needs to be able to consistently make the right decisions.

Using current technology, I think it's possible that we might have such a decision-making system in the not-too-distant future. Until then, the "mixed economies" are the best we can do.

Once created, an effective decision-making system can now go online in an advisory capacity only, the way that our President Franklin Roosevelt used his "brain trust" of economic advisors to ease the USA out of the great depression. When the nation reads the debate-discussion online, and learns to trust the decision-making process, I think a peaceful revolution will happen.

The reason a revolution is needed is that the state is under the control of a given class. So Franklin D. Roosevelt's "New Deal" would, in the orthodox view, have been undertaken in the interests of the monopoly capitalist class. whilst certain compromises were introduced to "buy off" the working classes, these didn't affect the nature of American capitalist economy or society. It's worth keeping in mind that after FDR died and the Cold War started, the USA began a political assault on progressive movements that had developed in the 1930s and 1940's with McCarthyism.

Assuming for a moment that Bernie Sanders had won the Democratic nomination in 2020 and gone on to win the Presidency and implemented his reforms (each of those being pretty difficult given the institutional power of the capitalist class) any future election would give the democrats and the republicans the opportunity to overturn them. This is in much the same way Reagan came to challenge the New Deal's political consensus in the 1980s, 50 years after the fact.

The far left in America is very weak but has grown somewhat in recent years due to opposition to Trump (the Democratic Socialists of America expanded rapidly, whilst the CPUSA grew only a little bit). So there is a very long road to a socialist revolution in the United States if that is what is needed to achieve socialism there.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
...In more contemporary history, what they are saying is that even if you could go back in time and assassinate Hitler, Hitler wasn't a unique individual who caused historical events a certain way....
Germany's defeat in the first world war, the Great Depression, and the high national pride of its citizens combined to create a dangerous situation. But I don't understand why a Marxist would think that an Adolf Hitler, the spark that set it off, was inevitable.

In other words, I see four random events in collision. I think that the collision of four similar events is inevitable at some point over time. However, there was nothing inevitable about this particular event.

Did Marx rule out randomness?

The reason a revolution is needed is that the state is under the control of a given class.
If you mean a violent revolution, we disagree on this. The people with loads of money have far more power than they should have but I don't think they should be considered a "class" since the word implies a group that shares a reputation acquired at birth. What this group shares are personality traits. They are commonly highly intelligent, highly arrogant, and infected with greed and the ambition for power over others.

Our government in the USA is an obsolete system, a relic of the 18th Century, but if it was replaced by revolt, the leaders would be men highly intelligent, highly arrogant, and infected with greed and the ambition for power over others.

As I see it, Capitalism currently plays a useful but limited role in an economy: The free market works fairly well with manufactured products that can be seen by a well-informed consumers spending their own money. Communist governments haven't been able to manage this segment of the economy because they haven't created an efficient policy-making system free of corruption.

I think the USA needs an entirely new government, one more efficient at making and implementing policy. But for now, Progressives Democrats are on the right track. They must gain control of the current system by limiting the influence of money on the decision-making. Then, they can implement more social programs that will be hard for their opponents to kill if they want people to vote for them (Franklin Roosevelt created the Social Security program in 1935).

Bottom Line: A society is a cooperative endeavor. I agree with you that a cooperative economy makes more sense than a competitive economy. But I don't think you are offering a decision-making system (government) that would manage a cooperative economy efficiently.
 
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Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Germany's defeat in the first world war, the Great Depression, and the high national pride of its citizens combined to create a dangerous situation. But I don't understand why a Marxist would think that an Adolf Hitler, the spark that set it off, was inevitable.

In other words, I see four random events in collision. I think that the collision of four similar events is inevitable at some point over time. However, there was nothing inevitable about this particular event.

Did Marx rule out randomness?

Marx was a determinist so he believed that there was a process of cause-and-effect at work in historical events. He believed that society could be understood scientifically as a law-governed process of development and change, in much the same way we look at nature as a law-governed process with the law of gravity and so on.

A Russian Marxist, Plekanhov, dedicated a pamphlet to understanding the role of the individual in history. What he said was that the individual cannot make decisions independent of these historical laws, but only accelerates or decelerates their operation. So the big events of history may have made the second world war a historical necessity, but individuals had a degree of control over the minor events and circumstances of it taking place.

Marxism isn't the same as fatalism though, as the operation of these social laws occurs through human activity and conscious design. So the whole premise of Marxian socialism was that by understanding these laws and controlling them, we could shape history and use our control derived from these laws to build a better world.

If you mean a violent revolution, we disagree on this. The people with loads of money have far more power than they should have but I don't think they should be considered a "class" since the word implies a group that shares a reputation acquired at birth. What this group shares are personality traits. They are commonly highly intelligent, highly arrogant, and infected with greed and the ambition for power over others.

Our government in the USA is an obsolete system, a relic of the 18th Century, but if it was replaced by revolt, the leaders would be men highly intelligent, highly arrogant, and infected with greed and the ambition for power over others.

As I see it, Capitalism currently plays a useful but limited role in an economy: The free market works fairly well with manufactured products that can be seen by a well-informed consumers spending their own money. Communist governments haven't been able to manage this segment of the economy because they haven't created an efficient policy-making system free of corruption.

I think the USA needs an entirely new government, one more efficient at making and implementing policy. But for now, Progressives Democrats are on the right track. They must gain control of the current system by limiting the influence of money on the decision-making. Then, they can implement more social programs that will be hard for their opponents to kill if they want people to vote for them (Franklin Roosevelt created the Social Security program in 1935).

Bottom Line: A society is a cooperative endeavor. I agree with you that a cooperative economy makes more sense than a competitive economy. But I don't think you are offering a decision-making system (government) that would manage a cooperative economy efficiently.

I'm not a huge fan of revolution either, for many of the reasons you point out. So I won't argue this point. I would say only that in the orthodoxy of Marxism, a revolution has to replace the capitalist state with a worker's state. What that means in practice and looks like, I remain still quite unsure.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
...So the whole premise of Marxian socialism was that by understanding these laws and controlling them, we could shape history and use our control derived from these laws to build a better world...

They would have been contemporaries. Was Marx aware of Charles Darwin's work? Did he comment on it?

Do you see overlap in the theory of evolution and Marxist philosophy?
 
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