• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Communism and its Controversies

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
They would have been contemporaries. Was Marx aware of Charles Darwin's work? Did he comment on it?

Do you see overlap in the theory of evolution and Marxist philosophy?

Marx was aware of Darwins work. I have heard he offered to dedicate the first chapter of Das Kapital to Darwin, but I'm not sure if it was true.

Marx and Engels understanding of development arose before the work of Darwin though. So they saw the theory of evolution by natural selection as a vindication of their dialectical conception of development in both nature and society.

There is therefore considerable overlap between Darwin's ideas of biological evolution and Marx's efforts to anticipate historical evolution of capitalist society. It is important to emphasise that there are considerable differences between them which led to the controversy over genetics in the USSR (lysenkoism) where it was banned as a "fascist pseudo-science" in the 1930's. However, these are subtle so I don't fully understand them as of yet but I am aware these differences do exist. So the Marxist understanding of biological evolution differs from the mainstream scientific understanding of evolution in important ways that creates issues over whether the former is really scientific or not.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
...So the Marxist understanding of biological evolution differs from the mainstream scientific understanding of evolution in important ways that creates issues over whether the former is really scientific or not.
Thanks for the exchange. One final thought:

When plans fail, there are three possible explanations:

a) The plan was flawed;
b) The execution of the plan was flawed;
c) Both a and b are true.

I don't think Communism has ever been properly tested because we humans have yet to invent a government free of corruption and capable of consistently excellent decision-making. I think that invention should be first on our agenda since we can't properly test Communism or any other sociological hypothesis without it.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Thanks for the exchange. One final thought:

When plans fail, there are three possible explanations:

a) The plan was flawed;
b) The execution of the plan was flawed;
c) Both a and b are true.

I don't think Communism has ever been properly tested because we humans have yet to invent a government free of corruption and capable of consistently excellent decision-making. I think that invention should be first on our agenda since we can't properly test Communism or any other sociological hypothesis without it.

I hope you are right. It would make life a lot easier. :)
 

Prim969

Member
Fair enough. I don't want to subject you to too much reading. :)



Marxism is often equated with a form of "economic determinism", but actually it's a little more complicated. Marx believed that everything in human consciousness was determined by the material nature of reality and social relations. So that means religion, art, music, morality, literature are all reflections of reality within human consciousness. Applied to psychology, that means our dreams, sexual fantasies and the visions or hallucinations of mad people are also reflections of the material world. I'm not sure how they prove that, but that is how far they are willing to go.

It's worth keeping in mind that this approach means that Marxists tend to reject the idea of inborn "gifts" or "intelligence" and so reject the concept of individual genius. They take the view that the role of individuals in history is more of being the right person in the right place in the right time. If Napoleon had been killed early on in the battles of the French Revolutionary Wars, say in Italy in 1796, Marxists argue that someone else would have taken his place in the military coup in 1799 and become Emperor of France.

In more contemporary history, what they are saying is that even if you could go back in time and assassinate Hitler, Hitler wasn't a unique individual who caused historical events a certain way. So someone else would have stepped in to his shoes and performed the same role, maybe better or worse, and played out the historical laws that were operating for that time. So even when you get back to your present as a time traveller, only minor details of history may have changed but the big picture is relatively the same.

So, individuals intelligence can only be built on the basis of that already existing co-operation and the struggle of ordinary people to make historical events. Whilst your Napoleon's and Hitler's get the name recognition, it is in fact the rest of us who fight their wars, produce the armaments for their armies and keep the economy, society and culture going. The role of individuals isn't as great in history as we are told or first imagine. Individuals don't create events, but rather than serve as the figureheads for much larger historical forces (usually classes) which meant that, one way or another, those events were going to take place anyway.



In recent years, I've had to concede that I probably haven't believed as strongly in the existence of classes that Marxism would require. For instance, if "all history hitherto is the history of class struggles" that would mean that the history of religiousforums.com from 2004 to the present in 2020 is also a history of "class struggles". That's hard to square with the reality of individual members and staff. Whilst the notion of class and class conflict "works" on grand historical levels, it is much less clear how it works on the scale of individual and day-to-day decisions.

In terms of the role of the state, that is significant. The assumption is that the class nature of the socialist state acts as a sufficient safeguard to ensure it's "progressive" historical role. But then you get down to the level of individuals operating within it and the possibility of abuse of power, corruption, ideological fanaticism, and things start to unravel. The Soviets had this dilemma in that they blamed Stalin for his "excesses" as an individual due to the "cult of personality" but didn't hold Socialism or the Soviet state responsible. That's a bit of a hard thing to reconcile in Marxist theory and there appears to be some weaknesses on that area.



The reason a revolution is needed is that the state is under the control of a given class. So Franklin D. Roosevelt's "New Deal" would, in the orthodox view, have been undertaken in the interests of the monopoly capitalist class. whilst certain compromises were introduced to "buy off" the working classes, these didn't affect the nature of American capitalist economy or society. It's worth keeping in mind that after FDR died and the Cold War started, the USA began a political assault on progressive movements that had developed in the 1930s and 1940's with McCarthyism.

Assuming for a moment that Bernie Sanders had won the Democratic nomination in 2020 and gone on to win the Presidency and implemented his reforms (each of those being pretty difficult given the institutional power of the capitalist class) any future election would give the democrats and the republicans the opportunity to overturn them. This is in much the same way Reagan came to challenge the New Deal's political consensus in the 1980s, 50 years after the fact.

The far left in America is very weak but has grown somewhat in recent years due to opposition to Trump (the Democratic Socialists of America expanded rapidly, whilst the CPUSA grew only a little bit). So there is a very long road to a socialist revolution in the United States if that is what is needed to achieve socialism there.
 

Prim969

Member
I'm fairly good with Soviet history but not quite so familiar with China beyond an outline. But I'll have a go answering this one.

China's path to becoming a people's republic was much longer and harder than the Soviets. The Chinese had to endure decades of civil war culminating in the conflict between the Communists and the Nationalists (Kuomintang). Depending on your view, China continues to be at civil war as the Nationalist fled to Taiwan and Mainland Communist China continues to claim it as there own (in much the same way north and south Korea were divided in 1948). I'm not familiar with this part of the history, but for the communist party to survive at this time as a faction in the civil war would have taken considerable skill. I've often read western authors praise Mao for his leadership in the civil war and the early years of the formation of the people republic, but then say it might have been better if he hadn't followed the radical path of the great leap forward and the cultural revolution later.

I believe that the Chinese did keep more aspects of capitalism than the Soviet did. I think that was part of Mao's belief that the "national" bourgeoisie was progressive and so could perform a revolutionary role in China (as part of New Democracy). So it embraced the more strict understanding of socialism much later and was able to turn back with Deng Xio Peng's economic reforms in 1978.

That's just a hunch really, but you'd have to take in to account the cultural revolution and the great leap forward as incredibly aggressive moves towards a socialist economy. Deng Xio Peng himself was denounced as a "capitalist roader" and "rightist" during the cultural revolution, so later history could be said to have validated that depending how you want to look at it. Technically you could say the Soviets began to reform earlier with de-stalinisation and that was what contributed to the Sino-Soviet split between the U.S.S.R and China (with the Soviet taking the more moderate route, whilst China took a hard-line position preserving Stalin's legacy and role in the international communist movement). The Ping-Pong diplomacy between Mao and Nixon during the Cultural Revolution is a very strange contrast (Nixon visited in 1972 whilst the Cultural Revolution didn't end until Mao's death in 1976).

The Chinese communist party was able to survive because it introduced economic reforms but didn't introduce political reforms. I believe there was a period of relative relaxation of political controls (the "Beijing Spring" in 1978-1979) but China pulled back and maintained communist party rule, whilst Gorbachev went all in and attempted major constitutional reforms and ended up having the military coup in 1991, only for the Soviet union to be dissolved and the communist party banned.

China has been immensely successful and has been the People's Republic for as long as the Soviets were around (71 years this year). So when historians come to write the history of communism in the future, they will probably focus a great deal more on China. The West tends to assume that Chinese communist party rule is inherently weak and unstable, but these are assumption that have been used over and over again, against the Soviets and other communist regimes. The Chinese path to western democracy is far from clear and the Soviets only got there because the Communist Party itself came to support it and led to its own liquidation. That doesn't look like what China will do and, at the rate we are going, may outlive the United States. I'm not sure about the very long-term future though and whether it will achieve full communism.

As I said, I'm not very clear on many of the details of Chinese history but have a vague overview of many of its main features, so I would be interested to have your input. :)
Laika I do think China’s introduction into the modern era was rather brutal and forced apon them by ultra capitalist greed. For the most part China had preferred to stay isolated from most of the world. Of course that all changed when ultra greedy capitalist traders like the British East India company wanting so much more from out of China than China was willing to give, decided apon a plan to offset the cost of China’s independence and prosperity especially with her silk and tea markets And so it began via their holdings in India that they increased their harvesting of opium with the specific intention of addicting larger portions of the Chinese population via opium. This is what led to two opium wars of 1839 and again in 1856. Which led the Emperor to command viceroy Lin Zexu to blockade the open ports along with dumping opium by the chest load from the traders ships into in the sea. Sadly a letter sent to Queen Victoria by the Emperor seems to have never reached its destination, at least to the Queen anyway, explaining how this now illegal trade was starting to effect the well being of the Chinese people. Well the rest is history now I guess with the succession of Hong Kong and then the final carving up of China with the boxer rebellion of 1899 which ended with China being divided up mostly by European powers. And with the final emperorship of imperial China being not long in coming after that with it’s final conclusion around 1912. You could say that China had become a country of feuding warlords after that there amongst its many provinces answerable only to whatever foreign master they were under at the time. That was the era that the nationalist and communist forces found themselves in. And probably if it were not by some Divine Providence with the great escape from Jiangxi when being surrounded by nationalists forces known as the long march with that retreat that the long march of 1934-1935 did began. Sone 9600 kilometres in duration in which some 80,000 communists were able to escape the clutches of the Nationalist armies there into the eventual safety of Shaanxi, Even only ir Mao and 9000 others did make it to the safety of that final destination. Still it was a turning point along with the 2nd invasion by the Japanese in 1937 bringing a ceasefire to hostilities between the nationalist and communist forces until 1945. It gave time for the communist party to regroup and reestablish its armies. In which they saw final victory achieved a few yrs later after the 2nd world war had ceased. Which saw the nationalist leader Chiang Kai Jhek and his followers escaping to Taiwan as it so remains until this very day. Yes the road for China regaining her sovereignty was a very Bloody and tragic one indeed. And yes Mao’s Great Leap Forward to double industrial might’ and agricultural output in the late 50’s was a disaster simply because the modern infrastructure just wasn’t there as yet and pig iron just kinda didn’t make the grade with everyone giving up much of their agricultural equipment along with their pots and pans. A great famine that occurred at the time did not matters either leading even to cannibalism and starvation for many. As to the cultural Revolution which came latter I do think that was more to do with Mao’s 4th wife Jiang Qing who was a very active party member In that area who had very strong views on what China’s cultural changes should look like.but not so popular with the majority of party thought nor with the people as well . Simply put the cultural traditions of China are far too engrained within the heart of the Chinese people to be ever changed anytime soon. As to Deng Xio Peng I do agree he did do much to stabilise the economic future and the direction of China’s economy , Even if he did had to spend a few years on the outer for his Business attributes to be more fully appreciated and recognised apon when he returned : ) Laika I’m sorry about the late reply. Your reply was so very long and did encompass so many things to think about. Yours Prim I hope you are well.
 
Last edited:

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Laika I’m sorry about the late reply. Your reply was so very long and did encompass so many things to think about. Yours Prim

No worries. Thanks for your response. It is very informative.

p.s. I hope you are enjoy your time on the forums so far. :)
 
Top