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Climate Impacts 'Overwhelming'

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
A lot of fun things -- such as political and social liberties -- seem likely to be threatened if resources like food and water become scarcer due to climate change.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
We tend to expect too much from politicians, but some changes are beyond their power to rule about.

When realization of those limits comes, it will be very painful and too late.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
I think part of the problem with getting people to accept and understand global climate change, is that individuals and organizations are constantly making predictions that turn out to be inaccurate, either in terms of occurrence and/or severity. Climate is a far too complex, and far too little understood, system to be able to make accurate predications based on a put x in, get y out model. None of the predictions I've heard throughout most of my life have been close to being accurate, or happening at all yet, so I find this exercise to be counterproductive in terms of increasing awareness and knowledge about global climate change.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
New UN report warns the impending impacts of climate change are going to be 'severe, pervasive and irreversible'...

BBC News - Climate impacts 'overwhelming' - UN

Thanks for the heads up on the latest IPCC report. I have another article from the NY Times courtesy of my rss feed from Who, What, Why, and from a quick scan, I think the Times writer does a better job of tying together the combined impacts of rapid sea ice loss, accelerating GHG levels, increasing ocean acidification etc.

As I see the issue of climate change over the last five years, it's the strategies of the people who are supposed to be on our side who have caused the most harm through lack of significant action to deal with the crisis.

For example, the proposals of Al Gore and the mainstream corporate-funded environmental lobbyists has been to just make changes around the edges of our economy, rather than recognize 20 years ago that we would have no way out if we didn't recognize the conflict between growth and a finite world!

Now, I think the pertinent question is: is it already too late to stop the cascading of positive feedbacks leading to a runaway greenhouse effect? The 350.org types have been telling us that just little changes and keeping our fingers crossed will hopefully do enough to save the future for our children, and now it looks like even the bureaucrats at the IPCC conventions can no longer accept that any longer. So, what do we do now?
 

Knight of Albion

Well-Known Member
Yes, I think politicians have generally shied away from taking the decisive measures needed fearing voter backlash at the next election.

What green initiatives they have taken they have, for the most part, used as an opportunity for back door taxation which has only served to alienate.

This winter just gone was a game changer, certainly for everyone here in the UK. Wheter it represented a 'point of no return' remains to be seen, but if it does the time for talking and tinkering round the edges will well and truly be over.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
We tend to expect too much from politicians, but some changes are beyond their power to rule about.

When realization of those limits comes, it will be very painful and too late.

shouldnt the expectation be raised....afterall, they are the ones voted to govern the country and people. Doesnt governing require that they also manage the environment??

If not, what are they voted in for?
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't like their use of the word "irreversible," but considering our policy makers can barely think beyond the next election cycle these days, on that tiny of a time scale, they might as well make such statements.

I know these are only data from the United States, but the problem is this:

1-25-2014_01.png

*source*

Look at where "dealing with global warming" is on this chart. It should be at least in the top five, if not the number one item on the list. Instead, it's second to last. Below the imaginary "moral breakdown" of the country. I mean, seriously.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
I don't like their use of the word "irreversible," but considering our policy makers can barely think beyond the next election cycle these days, on that tiny of a time scale, they might as well make such statements.

I know these are only data from the United States, but the problem is this:

1-25-2014_01.png

*source*

Look at where "dealing with global warming" is on this chart. It should be at least in the top five, if not the number one item on the list. Instead, it's second to last. Below the imaginary "moral breakdown" of the country. I mean, seriously.

The chart shows just how effective well-funded disinformation campaigns can be! As Naomi Oreskes says in Merchants of Doubt...regarding the motivated reasoning of disinformers that began their tactics in service of Reagan's Star Wars program and the tobacco lobby fighting smoking regulations - they don't have to win their arguments, just keep dumping out enough charts and graphs and long, wordy texts that look like legitimate research, to their target audience.

So, that mostly right wing audience that watches, reads and listens to right wing media, thinks global warming and evolution are real scientific controversies.

Last year, I came across some polling data taken from red states in the Southwest and some farm belt states like Oklahoma and Kansas -- which showed acceptance of anthropogenic climate change had grown substantially in spite of the difficulties in those areas in getting the message out and through right wing media noise. The reason likely has a lot to do with the fact that people living in these regions are experiencing increasingly frequent, and increasingly severe droughts and floods. So, it becomes a matter of...if you want to know if climate change is real, just look out your window!

The next question is whether these same people beginning to realize they have a problem, are willing or able to do anything to help alter the course towards extinction that the human race is clearly on target for in coming decades.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think part of the problem with getting people to accept and understand global climate change, is that individuals and organizations are constantly making predictions that turn out to be inaccurate, either in terms of occurrence and/or severity. Climate is a far too complex, and far too little understood, system to be able to make accurate predications based on a put x in, get y out model. None of the predictions I've heard throughout most of my life have been close to being accurate, or happening at all yet, so I find this exercise to be counterproductive in terms of increasing awareness and knowledge about global climate change.
I'm not sure which specific global-warming related predictions you're referring to that were proven to be inaccurate. Can you provide an example or two?
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
I'm not sure which specific global-warming related predictions you're referring to that were proven to be inaccurate. Can you provide an example or two?

Do I remember specific studies or articles? No, I didn't keep track of them. However, the kind of predictions I'm referring to are specific temperature increase predictions within a certain time period, specific rates of ocean level increase within a certain period of time, and predictions about increases in extreme weather events in particular years.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
Do I remember specific studies or articles? No, I didn't keep track of them. However, the kind of predictions I'm referring to are specific temperature increase predictions within a certain time period, specific rates of ocean level increase within a certain period of time, and predictions about increases in extreme weather events in particular years.
Exactly, which direction are you going here? Are you claiming that predictions exaggerate or minimize the actual measured results? Because, the general trends of CO2 increase, Arctic sea ice decline, sea level rise, ocean acidification...and many other indicators have far outstripped the earlier IPCC reports such as the one 20 years ago in 1994. Back then they were predicting loss of Arctic sea ice at the end of this century, guess where we are now! A special report prepared for the U.S. Navy last year predicted complete melting by the end of the summer of 2016...hardly more than two years from now...and of course that depends on some other variables...such as the Pacific...which now that there is a growing consensus that we are into a new, strong El Nino Southern Oscillation for later this summer, 2016 would be a near certainty!

So, the predictions have been way behind the real world results of global warming, largely because the reports presented for the IPCC were ignoring the likelihood of positive feedbacks as the global temperatures continue to rise. Now, the question is whether climate change is completely out of our control - because there is enough stored carbon locked up in Arctic permafrost and methane clathrates in shallow Arctic waters to rapidly dump large quantities of methane and CO2 into the atmosphere and trip other climate tipping points - dieoffs of marine life in the oceans, loss of terrestrial carbon sinks such as tropical rainforests through drought, and northern forests from increasing forest fires etc..

As the climate issues have come into clearer focus over the years, there has been less and less willingness by politicians and policymakers do to anything about them! No doubt this is largely because the costs of doing something are significant and growing. In the summary of the latest IPCC report, the dog that doesn't bark, is the fact that the UN was trying to arrange a deal where the richer and heavier polluting nations of the world would pay a significant amount of money for climate mitigation...such as assisting low-lying coastal nations like Bangladesh - which are most at risk of sea level rise. The cost would have been 100 billion per year for the U.S., Europe and other members of the high carbon, high consumption club, to go to the nations like Bangladesh and sub-sahara Africa, with very low per capita carbon footprints/that also face the worst effects of climate change. The cost for the U.S. would have been 30 billion per year...so guess what the answer is so far: a lot of expressed concern and flowery rhetoric by Obama and that's it! Nothing!

So, are we screwed? I have been of the opinion for the past few years already, that there is likely no way to make even liberalized capitalist economies environmentally sustainable, because the basic dynamics of capitalism demand constant growth; and guess what...we live on a finite planet! And we are just beginning to feel the limits of limited ecosystems and resource limits as economies stall out and stagnate in vain attempts to keep on growing.

From some of the literature I've read of late, calculating tipping points towards positive feedbacks is a matter of percentages - not hard limits like 1 degree increase does this, two degrees will do this, four degrees etc.. Instead, it looks more like being at 400 ppm CO2 combined with other GHG's in the atmosphere gives us almost 10% chance of adding an extra 2 degrees to global temperature increase which will be enough to set off other positive feedbacks. We may already be at the stage where we have to seriously consider geoengineering strategies to stop temperatures from rising (sequestering carbon in the atmosphere is much more expensive and difficult). And there have been hardly any serious testing of geoengineering effects on a complex system (the biosphere). We need to know what, if anything, will work, and what would likely make the problem worse and need to be avoided.

But, geoengineering would only provide short term solutions to get through the coming decades...what about after that? The next few generations will face extinction, along with the rest of life on earth if the human animals that use so much of the global biosphere do not reign in their consumption and waste. Up till now, the global warming debate has been about what can we do to fix or make the problem less serious, while working within the constraints of capitalism and human wants and desires. What if we don't have that option any longer? What if saving the future for our children and grandchildren requires a complete upending of our present economic systems and what where we place our values.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Do I remember specific studies or articles? No, I didn't keep track of them. However, the kind of predictions I'm referring to are specific temperature increase predictions within a certain time period, specific rates of ocean level increase within a certain period of time, and predictions about increases in extreme weather events in particular years.
My experience doesn't really match up with yours, as far as I can tell.

I can't recall instances where I heard that something will happen by a certain period, and then did not, in terms of climatology. In fact if I hear anything, it's that people point out that things are happening faster than expected in terms of glacial melting and other factors.
 

SoulDaemon

Member
The earths climate cycle is far too long to predict accurately, hell we've been here only for what few thousand years recording events on papyrus and paper. Yeah I know you can search climate changes through grounds growth rings.

We are one factor to calculate in, and the industrial rise of the late century.

And those dumb ***** who dump their **** in the oceans killing the plankton, which actually produces half of the oxygen on earth.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Climate is a far too complex, and far too little understood, system to be able to make accurate predications based on a put x in, get y out model. None of the predictions I've heard throughout most of my life have been close to being accurate, or happening at all yet, so I find this exercise to be counterproductive in terms of increasing awareness and knowledge about global climate change.
Well said...here is a link to a site showing just some failed predictions with referenced supporting links...

Climate Science Humiliated…Earlier Model Prognoses Of Warmer Winters Now Today’s Laughingstocks
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
There is overwhelming scientific consensus that global warming is occurring and that human activities are the driving force behind it. The details may be in dispute, but the core idea is no longer in any real dispute.
 

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
It feels like the alarm bells are starting to ring louder, for both the environment and the economy.

I think the environment is going to play a greater role in '16.

There needs to be some real international cooperation.

To bad we do not see any leadership on the horizon. I don't see Hillary as the solution.
 
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