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Classic failed science predictions and a faulty cosmological model exposed

joelr

Well-Known Member
No it means your rambling article had nothing but blather for support.
Right and just saying "blather" shows no evidence and proves you cannot debunk it or debate it. This is almost every post from you. The others are demands for evidence. Ha.

The first life form.
And that would be a fail because they have evidence. Notice the first word of this quote.........

"Evidence of microbes was also preserved in the hard structures (“stromatolites”) they made, which date to 3.5 billion years ago."

You offered beliefs in those area. Opinions that because some Jewish remain were found in villages means that Jews came from Canaanites is speculation at best.[

More dishonesty. You have clearly not reviewed archeological evidence for early Israel.
another source is an enemy of Israel who has a wall inscription explaining that " Israel was a Canaanite group indistinguishable from all other Canaanite groups."
From - K. L. Noll, Canaan and Israel in Antiquity: An Introduction,

the archeological evidence is vast. Why this would bother you and give you cause for more denial is unknown?

"The consensus of modern scholars is that the Bible does not give an accurate account of the origins of the Israelites, who appear instead to have formed as an entity in the central highlands of Canaan in the late second millennium BCE from the indigenous Canaanite culture.[3][4][5] Most scholars believe that the story of the Exodus has some historical basis, but that any such basis has little resemblance to the story told in the Bible."


"Based on the archaeological evidence, according to the modern archaeological account, the Israelites and their culture did not overtake the region by force, but instead branched out of the indigenous Canaanite peoples that long inhabited the Southern Levant, Syria, ancient Israel, and the Transjordan region[8][9][10] through a gradual evolution of a distinct monolatristic—later cementing as monotheistic—religion centered on Yahweh. The outgrowth of Yahweh-centric monolatrism from Canaanite polytheism started with Yahwism, the belief in the existence of the many gods and goddesses of the Canaanite pantheon but with the consistent worship of only Yahweh."




Claims that time are the same in the far universe are completely without basis and you never even addressed it. The mechanics in the fishbowl do not tell us what either the past nature on earth was or what time in far space is like now. In all ways you offered beliefs and not evidence.
Do you have an actual memory problem? Or is this just more dishonesty? This has been addressed. You then come back with unsupported crank creationist magic (turtles/fishbowl) and I do not care about your personal delusions.
We have covered evidence for this. You failed to put forward any evidence that debunks it. I do not care about your turtles delusions, no thank you, go away.

Best evidenced book on earth, and you deny it? That's hilarious.
Actually I looked into that. It turns out that archeology, historicity and comparative religion fields show that to be a mythology the same as all others.

There is nothing they can factor in since they do not know what time and space is out there. How would they know what shifts light there? They factor in beliefs and nothing else.

There is no evidence that spacetime is any different anywhere. We can see billions of years into the past. Everything looks fine.
Even if it all were an illusion and we were inside a fishbowl, how would that matter? It's still reasonable to use visual evidence and work from there? The only reason you even have this fishbowl crank is because of a fictional story?
You give no evidence, you make no alternative arguments, you just sit around and complain about scientists who are actually WORKING? All you want to do is complain about our knowledge of deep space, then counter any evidence with "fishbowl", then when asked for an alternative or evidence you whine "I don't have to have evidence.." and then look to re-start the same process?
Why don't you get a PhD and work towards proving your crank? I know trolls are not about education, self improvement or anything constructive so I'm a fool for asking.
Somehow winding around in this stupid circular argument seems endless fulfilling for you?

No one is going out there to study it. Really. They are not going billions of ly out when all we have done is go to the moon! They study IN the fishbowl. Nowhere else.
No, relativity says there is no "special" position, everything is the same in the entire spacetime. That is the point.
The theory doesn't allow or give any reason to suspect things change like that.

Why would I deny present nature laws have not changed? Of course they haven't. Focus.
And yet you did.

Mother Goose fables have more truth. Why mount an attack on a fable? Unless you support it as science it is worthless.
You mean "I'm too lazy too actually learn enough about the big bang model to even try to debunk it".
This is one of the trolliest troll things ever.
Provide evidence that the big bang is wrong.

What was written is irrelevant. Writing is post flood probably, and post Babel even.
Noah is a myth who never lived. The myth was written 9BC.

Dated how?
please reference what you are even talking about. Use your words. However if it was dated through radiometric dating, or Hebrew calendar dates were used I do not care. I'm not debating scholarship with someone who is clearlu uneducated and says ridiculous things like "I don't need to debunk the big bang because it's a fable".......

no thank you, go away.


No, it is believing it!

I know, those historians, what a bunch of idiots!. Luckily we have flat earthers and creationists to tell us the truth!


No they find bones and rocks. The rest is demonic imagination and false science.
They also find words, stories, scripture, stone tablets.
Your lack of evidence does not mean God is a liar. It just means you are hopelessly inadequate in the knowing dept.
God is not a liar because Yahweh isn't a god, it's a made up myth same as Zeus and Odin.

Not all Egyptians had names that were associated with a total defeat of Egypt. They likely erased whatever mention of that time and Moses that they could.
"And the biblical writers have enlarged the story."

Yet science uses a belief in a same nature in the past in all origin models of life on earth. I agree, they have no argument.

Entire field of evolutionary biology vs internet troll who refuses to provide evidence for crank ideas,

No, they can try to minimize it and cast doubt based on bias and hate and profound ignorance.

Cool, here is William Denver's wiki page, I didn't see anything about hate, bias or ignorance.
Please provide evidence.
William G. Dever - Wikipedia

In fact, to your point of "profound ignorance"

"William Gwinn Dever (born November 27, 1933, Louisville, Kentucky)[1] is an American archaeologist, specialising in the history of Israel and the Near East in biblical times. He was Professor of Near Eastern Archaeology and Anthropology at the University of Arizona in Tucson from 1975 to 2002. He is a Distinguished Professor of Near Eastern Archaeology at Lycoming College in Pennsylvania. He is married to Pamela Gaber, professor of Old Testament and Judaic Studies at Lycoming College."

what profound ignorance is is spewing hate on theories like the big bang and not actually knowing anything about the theory. Or the archeology, history and whatever else you try to hate on. Profound.

There were plenty of battles and there was an Egypt. Lots of small towns also, so what?
Baseless willing denial and last thursdayism.

Creationism qualifies as last thursdayism. Unfortunately for you scholarship is in consensus about Moses:

"Scholarly consensus sees Moses as a legendary figure and not a historical person,[10][11] while retaining the possibility that a Moses-like figure existed in the 13th century BCE.[12][13]"


"The consensus of modern scholars is that the Bible does not give an accurate account of the origins of the Israelites, who appear instead to have formed as an entity in the central highlands of Canaan in the late second millennium BCE from the indigenous Canaanite culture.[3][4][5] Most scholars believe that the story of the Exodus has some historical basis, but that any such basis has little resemblance to the story told in the Bible."

The Exodus - Wikipedia
 

dad

Undefeated
Right and just saying "blather" shows no evidence and proves you cannot debunk it or debate it.
Beliefs can't be debated. Nor are they supported.


"Evidence of microbes was also preserved in the hard structures (“stromatolites”) they made, which date to 3.5 billion years ago."
Support the dates and how you get them. Ha.

More dishonesty. You have clearly not reviewed archeological evidence for early Israel.
Early Israel in ruins is defined by what? Your dating dreams?


Actually I looked into that. It turns out that archeology, historicity and comparative religion fields show that to be a mythology the same as all others.
Cranks with crank dreams comparing crank beliefs. Impressive. They should rename it comparative crankism!

There is no evidence that spacetime is any different anywhere
Or not. Science is clueless.


. We can see billions of years into the past.
You insert great time where we do not know time exists. Your billions of years is religion.


Even if it all were an illusion and we were inside a fishbowl, how would that matter?
It does not need to be an illusion for time to be different out there. Time is invisible. What is an illusion is the great time you insert.

It's still reasonable to use visual evidence and work from there?
If you know what you are seeing, maybe there are some uses. Origin of stars and creation is not among those uses.


Why don't you get a PhD and work towards proving your crank?
PHds are as valuable as toilet tissue labels when it comes to origins.
No, relativity says there is no "special" position, everything is the same in the entire spacetime.
Relativity is relative only to the fishbowl. Nor does relativity tell us what time is or what it is like in deep space!


However if it was dated through radiometric dating, or Hebrew calendar dates were used I do not care.
I care about truth. Same nature in the past belief dating is a joke.

They also find words, stories, scripture, stone tablets.
So? I can find some of that in a library.
Entire field of evolutionary biology vs...
.vs truth.

"William Gwinn Dever (born November 27, 1933, Louisville, Kentucky)[1] is an American archaeologist, specialising in the history of Israel and the Near East in biblical times. He was Professor of Near Eastern Archaeology and Anthropology at the University of Arizona in Tucson from 1975 to 2002. He is a Distinguished Professor of Near Eastern Archaeology at Lycoming College in Pennsylvania. He is married to Pamela Gaber, professor of Old Testament and Judaic Studies at Lycoming College."
Does the guy use same nature in the past belief dates? Ha. We'd learn more from the bar code on his book!

Creationism qualifies as last thursdayism. Unfortunately for you scholarship is in consensus about Moses:
Flies have a consensus for dung. So?
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
No. It means the Greeks went to great lengths to build monuments and things to honour spirits they considered real. It also means that if a replica of the throne of Satan was built by some, that they also worship the old spirits.
Yup the Greeks thought Zeus was real just like the Israelites thought Yahweh was real. All myths.

If a card dealer deals cards that they spray blue on one side I guess we could say they deal cards. Scholars deal evidence that they molest and ruin with their beliefs.
No, if a scholar shows something contradictory to your beliefs you claim they were bias. You cannot prove every scholar is bias and this is exactly what peer-review is about. Checking facts. Most of the topics we have covered even Christian scholars would agree with. What's worse is you don't even have ANY evidence to support any of your beliefs. You have NO EVIDENCE TO EVEN BE BIAS WITH. Zero. Nothing.

Your fascist false science creates WOMD and expects all to go along with their cultish belief system.
again, prove it. Science deals with evidence. Show what evidence is wrong or shut up.

You have rejected facts when you rejected the truth. Using the word facts for beliefs does not mean your beliefs are anything else than baseless dark beliefs.
No because I only go by evidence. Notice now that we are talking in a general sense you attack me for being "belief" based. But on an actual topic when I present EVIDENCE then you have to go in a different direction. Usually you will attack the evidence or the scholar with an unsupported whiney remark like "blather"....or say the scchoalr is "bias-y and hate"
So dishonest.
All I do is provide evidence. Then you throw a few unsupported words at it, provide no evidence on your own and leave it at that.

The peers that review fables are fable mongers. Put perfume on a pile of manure it still smells. Put a pin saying PHD on a fable monger and they still wreak of what they really are.

A HA HA HA, you JUST DID IT AGAIN! HA HA. wait, look, what's that.....is that..... NO EVIDENCE and an unsupported attack on scholars ....!!!!HGA HA HA HA

No. You made that up.
In this video Richard Carrier PhD shows the gospels use of mythic storytelling (Ring structure, Markan sandwiches) and literal verse by verse transformations of OT narratives like Kings, Elija/Eisha, into newer stories about Jesus.

Rank–Raglan mythotype - Wikipedia

Jesus scores 18 of 22 on the Rank Raglan mythotype scale

"Lord Raglan developed his concept of the "Mythic Hero" as an archetype, based on a ritualistic interpretation of myth, in his 1936 book, The Hero, A Study in Tradition, Myth and Drama. It is a set of 22 common traits that he said were shared by many heroes in various cultures, myths and religions throughout history and around the world. Raglan argued that the higher the score, the more likely the figure's biography is mythical."

Jesus scores higher than King Arthur. Moses would probably be higher.

Did I make all that up?


There is no comparative religion to the worship of the One true Living God. The other religions can be compared to each other only! Therefore the whole course on comparative religions is a crock.
That is stupid. Even if your religion was real you could still compare it to others. We already know the myths are extremely similar in both OT and NT to other religions. But also all the "personal relationship" stuff people talk about, all the emotions and feelings and guidance and "god speaks to me" and all that is exactly the same in Hindism and other non Abrahamic religions.

Not yet. Until His kingdom comes we will still have demonic lies taught in schools.
So you think evolution is a demonic lie created by the Zoroastrian devil?

Noah was first.

evidence please. stop just stating your uneducated beliefs. Do you want to preach or are you capable of making a point?
You debate like my 9 year old nephew.

Followers does not mean witnesses that died to verify testimony. The apostles were witnesses.

Scholarship, including Christian scholarship says the gospels were anonymous non-eyewitnesses to the resurrection.
the others were copied from Mark which is called the Synoptic problem:

Not eyewitnesses:
"The majority of New Testament scholars agree that the Gospels do not contain eyewitness accounts;[56] instead, the four were written in and for various Christian communities for the purpose of proclamation, and as a result they present the theologies of their communities rather than the testimony of eyewitnesses."

Synoptic problem:
"This strong parallelism among the three gospels in content, arrangement, and specific language is widely attributed to literary interdependence.[2] The question of the precise nature of their literary relationship—the synoptic problem—has been a topic of lively debate for centuries and has been described as "the most fascinating literary enigma of all time".[3] The longstanding majority view favors Marcan priority, in which both Matthew and Luke have made direct use of the Gospel of Mark as a source,"
Mark was the first of these and considered the source.

"Matthew, Mark and Luke are called the synoptic gospels because they share many stories (the technical term is pericopes), sometimes even identical wording; finding an explanation for their similarities, and also their differences, is known as the synoptic problem,[62] and most scholars believe that the best solution to the problem is that Mark was the first gospel to be written and served as the source for the other two"


They studied using the same natural beliefs and methods. They are blind to the spiritual, and cannot study it.
How would you know that it cannot be studied?

Science is the study of the natural world. The physical world. It does not deal in anything else.
Der, when science figures out new energies or phenomenon it becomes part of science. If the supernatural can interact with the physical world (according to your myths it can) then it can be studied?



When Israel started is not important. God's people pre date Israel, and post date it.
Now that, is blather.

I told you they can't be supported. Don't pretend.

No, scholarship supports them fine, by calendar, radiometric or other. I don't care what an uneducated troll thinks.

No. But you do need to show they existed in the past on earth if you invoke them.
Yup, thermodynamics existed on old earth as well. Otherwise time would have basically had to run backwards.

Incestuous and inbred methods that all use the same belief.
Wow, now you're really making some good points!
Debunking radiometric dating because - incest and interbreeding. 100% troll.

They demonstrate how ignorant people blabber and foam at the beak about nothing and have no support at all.
oh except a lifetime of archeology. And again, your debunking of actual archeology is to call it "blabber" and "beak foaming".
Troll.


Personal experience, and all history.
NO historical reports of supernatural can be verified. Your experience couldn't matter less because you debate completely dishonest and I wouldn't trust a word you said.



If the three blind mice are looking at an elephant, you think that helps?
But it still shows your statement about science not trying was uneducated bunk.
If supernatural events interacted with the physical in the bible and you believe those were real then the supernatural can be tested.


Writing was not a feature of life before Babel, that we know.existed at all.
Cuneiform was one of the earliest systems of writing, invented by Sumerians in ancient Mesopotamia. ...

The dates for when writing started are not known by science, they use belief based dates.
crank. don't care about your beliefs on dating

. You have access?
yes and so do you now that we can compare myths.

False. Science is in the dark and clueless about spirits and history and dates when it comes to Noah's time.
Uh oh, someone is butthurt because science doesn't support their flood myth being original



All above your pay grade.

Are all stories of sorcerers and magic above my pay grade? Looks like according to your myths supernatural things can interact with the physical. Huh, guess science can study them. Maybe you should check in with William Tiller and hope he's finding some supernatural?

God does it in a controlled setting! He controls it all. Science cannot control and setting that involves spirits.

How do you know? What if someone can use god-magic at will? What if Yahweh gives someone some magic powers?
It's in scripture. Maybe someone could create bread and wine at will in a lab setting? Or part a sea while scientists watch.

He does give us gifts of the spirit. However, we must be born again in the spirit to get them...or recognize them.
cool, go get born again and ask for some powers to reveal the power of Yahweh. Since nowdays most people believe the OT myths are myths, like Noah's Ark and Adam and Eve why don't you ask for powers to part the sea. Or at least a lake. Ask Yahweh to tell you a 10 digit number and 1 word. Then write it here.
 

dad

Undefeated
Yup the Greeks thought Zeus was real just like the Israelites thought Yahweh was real. All myths.
Myths because you choose to think something different. Got it.

No, if a scholar shows something contradictory to your beliefs you claim they were bias.
That goes without saying. If they claim things against the bible, they are also without support, wisdom, or knowledge.

You cannot prove every scholar is bias and this is exactly what peer-review is about.
Their claims can be shown to be unsupported.

Checking facts. Most of the topics we have covered even Christian scholars would agree with.
They don't get a vote. Either they know and can support the dream dates or not.

again, prove it. Science deals with evidence. Show what evidence is wrong or shut up.
There is no evidence wrong or right for a same nature in the past, only belief. Calling belief evidence is a crime against humanity.

. But on an actual topic when I present EVIDENCE then you have to go in a different direction.
The dates you use are belief. The speculation you cited on history was laden with bias and belief.


All I do is provide evidence.
Example? Ha.


In this video Richard Carrier PhD shows the gospels use of mythic storytelling (Ring structure, Markan sandwiches) and literal verse by verse transformations of OT narratives like Kings, Elija/Eisha, into newer stories about Jesus.

Decrepit dreamers with no substance.

"Lord Raglan developed his concept of the "Mythic Hero" as an archetype, based on a ritualistic interpretation of myth, in his 1936 book, The Hero, A Study in Tradition, Myth and Drama. It is a set of 22 common traits that he said were shared by many heroes in various cultures, myths and religions throughout history and around the world. Raglan argued that the higher the score, the more likely the figure's biography is mythical."

Jesus scores higher than King Arthur. Moses would probably be higher.

Did I make all that up?
Bias people hand out awards or degrees as to how God's truth ranks in their demented little heads, That is bad enough, but to take is seriously is a dangerous sign.


That is stupid. Even if your religion was real you could still compare it to others.
Only in a way that compares light to darkness.

We already know the myths are extremely similar in both OT and NT to other religions.
Bad spirits and good ones have traits. So? Calling it all myth just shows unbelief.

But also all the "personal relationship" stuff people talk about, all the emotions and feelings and guidance and "god speaks to me" and all that is exactly the same in Hindism and other non Abrahamic religions.
Bad and good spirits speak.


So you think evolution is a demonic lie created by the Zoroastrian devil?
No. However it is a demonic lie.

Scholarship, including Christian scholarship says the gospels were anonymous non-eyewitnesses to the resurrection.
John was a witness. Matthew also. Mark was thought to be written by someone quite familiar with Jesus also.

"John Mark, who transcribed the teachings of Simon Peter, is traditionally held to be the author of the Second Gospel. John Mark was the son of a widow woman named Mary (Acts 12:12-17). The disciples met in Mary’s home. Her home may have even served as the location of the Last Supper."
Who Wrote the Gospel of Mark?

The other books include people who knew Jesus such as Peter.

Der, when science figures out new energies or phenomenon it becomes part of science. If the supernatural can interact with the physical world (according to your myths it can) then it can be studied?
Not by those who acknowledge and deal in only the physical.

Yup, thermodynamics existed on old earth as well. Otherwise time would have basically had to run backwards.
Explain? Ha

Debunking radiometric dating because - incest and interbreeding.
Circular reasoning is endemic in the same nature in the past belief.


NO historical reports of supernatural can be verified.

Says who? Jesus verified it. Most people in the bible also did! Science cannot verify or deny so doesn't even matter in the discussion.

But it still shows your statement about science not trying was uneducated bunk.
If supernatural events interacted with the physical in the bible and you believe those were real then the supernatural can be tested.
I test it. People test it. Science cannot test it.

Cuneiform was one of the earliest systems of writing, invented by Sumerians in ancient Mesopotamia. ..
. This is news? So?
Are all stories of sorcerers and magic above my pay grade?
Why, do you claim you can test them?

How do you know? What if someone can use god-magic at will? What if Yahweh gives someone some magic powers?
It might be called miracles?

It's in scripture. Maybe someone could create bread and wine at will in a lab setting?
Why would a cool God go to some lab?

cool, go get born again and ask for some powers to reveal the power of Yahweh.
He reveals Himself to us. He does not ask people to reveal Him.

Since nowdays most people believe the OT myths are myths
Keep us posted on what you and 'most people' believe eh? We care.
 

dad

Undefeated
Beliefs can be supported with evidence. Your beliefs cannot be supported because they have no evidence.
The beliefs of so called science cannot be supported with evidence. The bible is evidenced.

There are three general approaches that allow scientists to date geological materials and answer the question: "How old is this fossil?" First, the relative age of a fossil can be determined. Relative dating puts geologic events in chronological order without requiring that a specific numerical age be assigned to each event.
Relative to each other as to which is oldest. That does not give dates.

Second, it is possible to determine the numerical age for fossils or earth materials. Numerical ages estimate the date of a geological event and can sometimes reveal quite precisely when a fossil species existed in time.
False. Believing is not determining.

Third, magnetism in rocks can be used to estimate the age of a fossil site.
No way. The rapid magnetic fluxes that occurred in the time of the nature change make that impossible. The way toy estimate magnetic reversals is belief based 100%
........The science troll writes on his computer.
Computers have zero to do with a same state past. Troll.

we see light from billions of light years away.
You see light in the fishbowl and in time as it exists here. Nowhere else ever. Period.


but objects age. light takes 1 year to cross a light year. So time has visual markers.
Time here is a year. That does not mark the universe. The time out there would need to be the same to make a year a year there also.


Do you think scientists should all become creationists and sit around and say "well guess we can never know" and just pray all day?
Yes.


How does this "different nature" have anything to do with modern archeology on the early Israelite towns?
That depends, do they use dates or claim a village existed a certain date? If so, show the way the date is attained!
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The beliefs of so called science cannot be supported with evidence. The bible is evidenced.
Between the two, the former wins hands down-- not even close. As any serious theologian would tell ya, religion is based on "faith", which requires no objectively-derived evidence. Science, otoh, is based on objective research using the "scientific method", and that's a huge difference.
 

dad

Undefeated
Between the two, the former wins hands down-- not even close. As any serious theologian would tell ya, religion is based on "faith", which requires no objectively-derived evidence. Science, otoh, is based on objective research using the "scientific method", and that's a huge difference.
I disagree. Origins science is based on faith, and the bible has innumerable proofs over time such as prophesies that became history.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Origins science is based on faith
False, which should stand to common sense since "faith" simply is not based on using the "scientific method".

Plus, it is important to realize that there's sort of a "hierarchy" when it comes to evidence, and some may read or hear about a "hypothesis" and believe we are saying it's an absolute fact. The origin of life, for example, is strictly at the "hypothesis" stage, and it probably will never advance beyond it.

...and the bible has innumerable proofs over time such as prophesies that became history.
What often come off as being prophecies are very often later writings using a "flashback" technique. The Torah, for example, has a much more recent authorship than what we used to believe many decades and centuries ago.

The bottom line is that there is simply not even one prophecy that we can substantiate as being correct as a true prophecy. And this is even more complicated because of the fact that various interpretations abound.

For example, many Christians believe that Isaiah predicts the coming of Jesus, but a careful reading of the entire book makes that a real s-t-r-e-t-c-h, to say the least. "Jerome's Bible Commentary" says it quite honestly, imo, in that it's not really about Jesus at all but that it can be used to "prefigure" Jesus' coming. IOW, it can be interpreted as creating a parallel narrative and outcome that the coming of Jesus reflected.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Myths because you choose to think something different. Got it.
If you think Zeus was real then great. Good for you. Zeus and Yahweh are mythic creations.

That goes without saying. If they claim things against the bible, they are also without support, wisdom, or knowledge.
Scholars don't say things "against" the bible. They show what evidence is presented by history, archeology and so forth. Like you don't know this?

Their claims can be shown to be unsupported.
Cool, pick one claim and demonstrate this to be true. You continue to say meaningless things without evidence or support. This is the action of a troll.

They don't get a vote. Either they know and can support the dream dates or not.
Again regarding scholarship, Christian or not, I do not care if you don't accept knowledge. You can remain ignorant. I've backed up all my claims with evidence. You have not.

There is no evidence wrong or right for a same nature in the past, only belief. Calling belief evidence is a crime against humanity.
First, that's ALL you do. You use belief as evidence, period. That's all you do.
You have no evidence or reason to think that the laws of nature were completely different in the past. hy do you continue to whine about this?
The dates you use are belief. The speculation you cited on history was laden with bias and belief.
No, I only use facts and evidence. Pick one date you dispute and explain why you dispute it.

Example? Ha.
Every post I use a PhD in archeology, historicity or some similar field. again, more dishonest debating from you. You know this. I do not care if you have a conspiracy theory against scholarship.
What's great is you can't make arguments against the things you say are wrong so I get to continue to smash you over and over.



Decrepit dreamers with no substance.

HA HA HA, again, no evidence. Just handwaving.


Bias people hand out awards or degrees as to how God's truth ranks in their demented little heads, That is bad enough, but to take is seriously is a dangerous sign.
Blah blah, take it up with your god, he decided to appear exactly as every other myth.
Oh, also, what was that.....MORE NO EVIDENCE!!

Only in a way that compares light to darkness.
you mean dark magic to good magic

Bad spirits and good ones have traits. So? Calling it all myth just shows unbelief.

Exactly. they are myths. you are not supposed to take myths literal.



No. However it is a demonic lie.
right so you fell for the Zoroastrian myth that was blended into Judaism.
Good for you Church Lady.

In Isaiah 45:5 Yahweh said there is no other, I bring disaster, I bring darkness, there is no other but me.....
Heaven was where God dwelled and the dead resided in sheol
Then after the Persians invade we get all the good vs evil and apocalypticist mythology where the devil is constantly trying to undermine god and his people.

John was a witness. Matthew also. Mark was thought to be written by someone quite familiar with Jesus also.

You don't even know your own myths?
John saw a vision.

"John Mark, who transcribed the teachings of Simon Peter, is traditionally held to be the author of the Second Gospel. John Mark was the son of a widow woman named Mary (Acts 12:12-17). The disciples met in Mary’s home. Her home may have even served as the location of the Last Supper."
Who Wrote the Gospel of Mark?

HA HA, who's trying to use scholarship now!! Oh...hey..."it's all blather"......hey......"bias mouth foamer"....HA HA!

Well your source is not a historian but rather a Theology and Apologetics source who doesn't even realize the complete consensus is that Mark is the 1st gospel.

"Most scholars date Mark to AD 65–75.[6] They reject the traditional ascription to Mark the Evangelist, the companion of the Apostle Peter, which probably arose from the desire of early Christians to link the work to an authoritative figure, and believe it to be the work of an author working with various sources including collections of miracle stories, controversy stories, parables, and a passion narrative."

"The hypothesis of Marcan priority (that Mark was written first) continues to be held by the majority of scholars today, and there is a new recognition of the author as an artist and theologian using a range of literary devices"

The other books include people who knew Jesus such as Peter.
"The authorship of the Petrine epistles (First and Second Peter) is an important question in biblical criticism, parallel to that of the authorship of the Pauline epistles, since scholars have long sought to determine who were the exact authors of the New Testament letters. Most scholars today conclude that Saint Peter was not the author of the two epistles that are attributed to him and that they were written by two different authors."
Authorship of the Petrine epistles - Wikipedia

When a myth is written there will be people who meet the gods in the story. So?

Not by those who acknowledge and deal in only the physical.
Sigh. The word "physical" is constantly changing to encompass new energies. New agers and the like hope spiritual energies will one day be a part of normal science.
You cannot backtrack on this. You tried to be all - "hey man science cannot touch the spirit man. it's like totally not possible man..."
But too bad for you that all the myths you believe in demonstrate that spiritual energies CAN interact with the physical.
In fact rods can even become snakes.

Explain? Ha

look it up. In the macroscopic world thermodynamics says entropy has to increase as we move forward in time
"
Thermodynamic arrow of time
The arrow of time is the "one-way direction" or "asymmetry" of time. The thermodynamic arrow of time is provided by the second law of thermodynamics, which says that in an isolated system, entropy tends to increase with time."


Circular reasoning is endemic in the same nature in the past belief.

like I said so far your debunking of radiometric dating is - incest and interbreeding.


Most people in the bible also did! Science cannot verify or deny so doesn't even matter in the discussion.

If you turn a rod into a snake scientists can verify it. If you part a sea it can be verified.

Says who? Jesus verified it.

Oops, no, this is now the dumbest thing ever. Lord of the Rings verified magic as well. So did Harry Potter.
I just can't prove it. Since the gospels are complete myth they cannot verify magic either.

I test it. People test it. Science cannot test it.
If people can test supernatural then science can. If you can turn a rod into a snake you can have a team of scientists record you do it. You can do it in a controlled setting.
Since you test it then tell me the 10 digit number plus one word I have written down.

See, we can test it.
The James Randi foundation will pay you 1 million dollars to turn a rod into a snake or similar. Go ahead, look them up, give them a call.


. This is news? So?

You asked about the earliest writing? If you can't keep track of the discussion too bad.

Why, do you claim you can test them?

Yup I too can test magic. I can verify if you turn rod into snake. I can examine the conditions and look for fakery.

It might be called miracles?
great, there you go. Have Mr Miracle perform some miracles on video and then they will be invited to perform for a video team and so forth.

See we can test the supernatural.

Why would a cool God go to some lab?
That god isn't cool, he kills women and children.
No need for a lab, a team will come anywhere to film supernatural.
The Discovery channel sent a team to study Buddah boy for an entire week.

He reveals Himself to us. He does not ask people to reveal Him.
I was waiting for the apologetics BS excuse as to why you cannot use magic. Except in scripture people used magic all the time.

Keep us posted on what you and 'most people' believe eh? We care.
I know, you don't care right.
Oh wait, is this you ON AN INTERNET FORUM DESPERATELY ARGUING YOUR POSITION, even using dishonest tactics and endless circular arguments because you don't care so much. Huh....
 
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joelr

Well-Known Member
The beliefs of so called science cannot be supported with evidence. The bible is evidenced.
Yes Lord of the Rings is also evidenced.
Name one "belief" of science that has no evidence.


Relative to each other as to which is oldest. That does not give dates.
Yes relative dating is first, used to put items in chronological order. Did you really just ask that question?

False. Believing is not determining.

Using data is not "believeing" Make a case as to why radiometric dating cannot be accurate or I'm erasing any other reference to it.
Your creepy desire to engage in endless circular arguments is, well, creepy.

No way. The rapid magnetic fluxes that occurred in the time of the nature change make that impossible. The way toy estimate magnetic reversals is belief based 100%
I only didn't erase this because you tried to make a point. Unfortunately it was just another "turtles" crank psuedo-science creationist nonsense. I already know you have no evidence for it.
I debate to learn. I have learned you are crazy but there is no more facts here to learn. This is why I avoided radiometric dating and exactly what I predicted happened. Why it's fun for you to try to suck people into this "nature change" non-debate when you have no evidence, no source but just want to repeat this belief over and over I do not know.

Computers have zero to do with a same state past. Troll.
Computers are a product of quantum mechanics which says the universe has been the same since the beginning.
Even without a big bang, an eternal universe still operates with the standard model and there is no prediction or cause for laws to change. Even worse it would be catastrophic to alter any law even a small amount. So the idea laws would just play musical chairs is nonsense.
I'm erasing all further references that you have no evidence for.



Then why are you not leaving you computer and praying or doing non-science supported activities?


That depends, do they use dates or claim a village existed a certain date? If so, show the way the date is attained!
no thank you. I'm fine with dates used by scholarship.

"Over the next two hundred years (the period of Iron Age I) the number of highland villages increased from 25 to over 300[9] and the settled population doubled to 40,000.[58] By the 10th century BCE a rudimentary state had emerged in the north-central highlands,[59] and in the 9th century this became a kingdom.[60] Settlement in the southern highlands was minimal from the 12th through the 10th centuries BCE, but a state began to emerge there in the 9th century,[61] and from 850 BCE onwards a series of inscriptions are evidence of a kingdom which its neighbours refer to as the "House of David."[62]"
 

dad

Undefeated
If you think Zeus was real then great. Good for you. Zeus and Yahweh are mythic creations.
Science doesn't know we don't know. How would you know about demons?


Scholars don't say things "against" the bible. They show what evidence is presented by history, archeology and so forth. Like you don't know this?
Claiming Exodus was not real would be saying something against Scripture.


Cool, pick one claim and demonstrate this to be true
Dates they offer for example cannot be demonstrated to be valid.

You have no evidence or reason to think that the laws of nature were completely different in the past.
I have history and the bible. Science has nothing for or against.

Pick one date you dispute and explain why you dispute it.
Göbekli Tepe - Wikipedia
The date is same nature in the past belief based.


In Isaiah 45:5 Yahweh said there is no other, I bring disaster, I bring darkness, there is no other but me.....
Heaven was where God dwelled and the dead resided in sheol
Then after the Persians invade we get all the good vs evil and apocalypticist mythology where the devil is constantly trying to undermine god and his people.
The Serpent was known from the beginning. When some heather writings mentioned good or evil or spirits is of no value.


Well your source is not a historian but rather a Theology and Apologetics source who doesn't even realize the complete consensus is that Mark is the 1st gospel.
The gospels were inspired and compiled at a certain time. The oldest copy is of no great importance. We has the records, and by the time we complied them into a book, some copies may have been older than others, or replaced. You don't know.

"The hypothesis of Marcan priority (that Mark was written first) continues to be held by the majority of scholars today, and there is a new recognition of the author as an artist and theologian using a range of literary devices"
We all have our quirks and styles.


"The authorship of the Petrine epistles (First and Second Peter) is an important question in biblical criticism, parallel to that of the authorship of the Pauline epistles, since scholars have long sought to determine who were the exact authors of the New Testament letters. Most scholars today conclude that Saint Peter was not the author of the two epistles that are attributed to him and that they were written by two different authors."
What, they think a gut named Peter snuck in and pretended he was the other Peter? That is foolishness. That also is slander against early Christians who had the records, and against Jesus who inspired them. That is baseless doubt. If you call that scholarly that shows you have no real clue.
When a myth is written there will be people who meet the gods in the story. So?
Hundreds of millions have met Jesus today. Calling this a myth is doing violence to the language.

Sigh. The word "physical" is constantly changing to encompass new energies.
None of which are spiritual or spirits.


But too bad for you that all the myths you believe in demonstrate that spiritual energies CAN interact with the physical.
Spirits being able to appear and talk to physical beings does not mean physical beings control when or how.

look it up. In the macroscopic world thermodynamics says entropy has to increase as we move forward in time
Fishbowl permutations.


"
Thermodynamic arrow of time
The arrow of time is the "one-way direction" or "asymmetry" of time. The thermodynamic arrow of time is provided by the second law of thermodynamics, which says that in an isolated system, entropy tends to increase with time."
Noting that disorder increases with time has zero to do with knowing what time is! All it means is that in out temporary nature, time works a certain way here on earth and area.



If you turn a rod into a snake scientists can verify it. If you part a sea it can be verified.
If a big hand writes on a wall, they could verify the writing existed, not the hand!

See, we can test it.
The James Randi foundation will pay you 1 million dollars to turn a rod into a snake or similar. Go ahead, look them up, give them a call.
Miracles are done for people it seems to me in the bible. Not for parlour tricks.


That god isn't cool, he kills women and children.
Farmers with infected animals aren't cool if they cull them?
There was a time when His nation was required to fight in this world. That was the kind of world it was. The salvation of man depended on His nation surviving and not being defeated by the desperately wicked child sacrificing demon worshipping heathen.

Jesus said we are not of this world, so that is no longer the case. However, He also said He would slay the wicked when they fight Him as He returns to earth to bring His kingdom here. That is not killing, it is heavenly police action.
 

dad

Undefeated
Yes Lord of the Rings is also evidenced.
Name one "belief" of science that has no evidence.
That nature in the past on earth was the same.

Yes relative dating is first, used to put items in chronological order. Did you really just ask that question?
I pointed out that it is not dating just seeing what is older.
Using data is not "believeing" Make a case as to why radiometric dating cannot be accurate or I'm erasing any other reference to it.
If creation happened then we has a starting ratio of isotopes. You assume the ratios were produced by the current nature. In the former nature we do not know radioactive decay even existed. Do we? Proof?


Computers are a product of quantum mechanics which says the universe has been the same since the beginning.
Let us know if you need another cheap bridge. Someone may have one for sale for you.

Even without a big bang, an eternal universe still operates with the standard model and there is no prediction or cause for laws to change.
Eternal is not what this universe is. Only in your religion. The standard model is a crock. It sure doesn't apply out of the fishbowl either.

Even worse it would be catastrophic to alter any law even a small amount.
The nature that God changed was not this one. Relax. It didn't involve this nature or changing stuff in it.


no thank you. I'm fine with dates used by scholarship.
Blind saith.

"Over the next two hundred years (the period of Iron Age I) the number of highland villages increased from 25 to over 300[9] and the settled population doubled to 40,000.[58] By the 10th century BCE a rudimentary state had emerged in the north-central highlands,[59] and in the 9th century this became a kingdom.[60]
Not sure why you spam foolishness? Is the claim that Israel had to start in these high villages?

Settlement in the southern highlands was minimal from the 12th through the 10th centuries BCE, but a state began to emerge there in the 9th century,[61] and from 850 BCE onwards a series of inscriptions are evidence of a kingdom which its neighbours refer to as the "House of David."[62]"

Since David was the first king, this is news...how?
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Science doesn't know we don't know. How would you know about demons?
Show evidence beyond myths and make believe stories.

Claiming Exodus was not real would be saying something against Scripture.
Not really. That's just what people find, that's the evidence. Most Jews don't quit their faith they simply realize that story was written by men as a myth. It IS an important cultural myth about moving forward and change.
No one wants to worship something that people find evidence against and the scientists quietly sweep it under the rug? The Catholics swore the earth was the center of the universe from scripture and from communications with spirtis.
They were wrong. They adjust. If not you become that crazy person who denies science and can't let go of stuff science has already debunked.

The Exodus: Does archaeology have a say?
What the Jews say:

"The short answer is “no.” The whole subject of the Exodus is embarrassing to archaeologists. The Exodus is so fundamental to us and our Jewish sources that it is embarrassing that there is no evidence outside of the Bible to support it. So we prefer not to talk about it, and hate to be asked about it.For the account in the Torah is the basis of our people’s creation, it is the basis of our existence and it is the basis of our important Passover festival and the whole Haggada that we recite on the first evening of this festival of freedom. So that makes archaeologists reluctant to have to tell our brethren and ourselves that there is nothing in Egyptian records to support it. Nothing on the slavery of the Israelites, nothing on the plagues that persuaded Pharaoh to let them go, nothing on the miraculous crossing of the Red Sea, nothing."

Dates they offer for example cannot be demonstrated to be valid.
What date, pick one date?

I have history and the bible. Science has nothing for or against.
History shows no evidence for different laws. The bible isn't real, it's fiction.

Göbekli Tepe - Wikipedia
The date is same nature in the past belief based.

Even if laws were different how do you know it effected carbon decay?. If time had sped up or slowed down then it would not mater because all the events would still be relative. It doesn't change the order of events?
But there is no evidence for laws being different so it isn't a consideration.

The Serpent was known from the beginning. When some heather writings mentioned good or evil or spirits is of no value.
But the serpent spoke with Eve. Later Yahweh sent Satan do bring a plague then to torture Job. The Satan acted as persecuter on a trial with Yahweh. Yahweh allowed Satan to torture Job. They spoke and Satan was gods hit man.
There was no war between Satan and God
No messianic apocalypse, world ends in fire, all good people resurrected into a new body, even hell gets burned and a savior god as well. They borrowed that from Persia.

"

The gospels were inspired and compiled at a certain time. The oldest copy is of no great importance. We has the records, and by the time we complied them into a book, some copies may have been older than others, or replaced. You don't know.

We have the dates of the gospels figured out. There were 40 overall gospels being chosen from at the Council of Nicea in 313AD. The current canon is not the original but is a response canon to the Marcionite canon which is forever lost to us.

"The majority of New Testament scholars agree that the Gospels do not contain eyewitness accounts;[56] instead, the four were written in and for various Christian communities for the purpose of proclamation, and as a result they present the theologies of their communities rather than the testimony of eyewitnesses."
Historical reliability of the Gospels - Wikipedia

"Marcion's canon, possibly the first Christian canon ever compiled, consisted of eleven books: a gospel, which was a form of the Gospel of Luke; and ten Pauline epistles.[3] Marcion's canon rejected the entire Old Testament, along with all other epistles and gospels of what would become the 27-book New Testament canon, which during his life had yet to be compiled."
Development of the New Testament canon - Wikipedia


What, they think a gut named Peter snuck in and pretended he was the other Peter? That is foolishness. That also is slander against early Christians who had the records, and against Jesus who inspired them. That is baseless doubt. If you call that scholarly that shows you have no real clue. .

Whatever records you speak of are likely in your head. There are many known christian forgeries. Usually what they are is someone feeling a certain person or event needs more historical cooberation and someone forges a document.
Either way, the gospels are in no way considered historical so they are not evidence.

Hundreds of millions have met Jesus today. Calling this a myth is doing violence to the language.

Well hundreds of millions pretend in their minds they met Jesus today. Same with Lord Krishna, Vishnu, Brahman and countless others. Others felt they communicated with aliens, spirit guides, faries, their higher selves. Some may have even spoke with Spider Man?
Others think a cold reader spoke to their dead relatives. So. It's still all in your head.


None of which are spiritual or spirits.
If spiritual energy can turn rod to snake, part a sea and make bread and wine from nothing it can interact with the physical It can be studied.


Spirits being able to appear and talk to physical beings does not mean physical beings control when or how.
Don't be coy. In scripture it was done on command. Until supernatural can be verified it's crank.

Fishbowl permutations.
no if thermodynamics reversed time runs backward. Look it up.


Noting that disorder increases with time has zero to do with knowing what time is! All it means is that in out temporary nature, time works a certain way here on earth and area.

Yes but we are speaking of this in regards to LAWS CHANGING ON EARTH. UH_DER. If thermodynamics changed on earth time could run in reverse.

If a big hand writes on a wall, they could verify the writing existed, not the hand!
NO but if we can verify something was written by supernatural means then we can
-look for unknown energies
-increase studies into finding supernatural sources
-consider the supernatural realm to be more than something less-intelligent people believe in
-get funding for further studies
-your statements that supernatural cannot be studies is proof of this less-intelligence because you do not know either way.


Miracles are done for people it seems to me in the bible. Not for parlour tricks.

Getting the world interested in the supernatural would be a huge shift in the consciousness of mankind.
If your mythic gods want to hide in myth storybooks then they can do that. But they seem to want to send a message. Well people don't believe in stories of magic. This is the time to demonstrate the supernatural.
Unless it's all just stories made up by people.

Farmers with infected animals aren't cool if they cull them?
There was a time when His nation was required to fight in this world. That was the kind of world it was. The salvation of man depended on His nation surviving and not being defeated by the desperately wicked child sacrificing demon worshipping heathen.

J
esus said we are not of this world, so that is no longer the case. However, He also said He would slay the wicked when they fight Him as He returns to earth to bring His kingdom here. That is not killing, it is heavenly police action.

I don't care how you justify your crap god killing women and children in Deut 22. There is no archeological evidence the Canaanites did aything else except sacrifice animals same as the Israelites did. Forced labor if they accept peace?
Then the cities where you don't kill everyone you may take the women and children as "plunder" of war.
Gross. Sacfificial Blood magic atonement from killing animals and demigods, gross.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
That nature in the past on earth was the same.

That is YOUR BELIEF. We have evidence that the laws have not changed.

I pointed out that it is not dating just seeing what is older.

Yeah and it's JUST THE FIRST STEP?????????



If creation happened then we has a starting ratio of isotopes. You assume the ratios were produced by the current nature. In the former nature we do not know radioactive decay even existed. Do we? Proof?

Yes there is proof. If decay rates changed then we would see layers of rock where the laws changed be unusually abundant or reverse. All over the world. There would be a period of rapid decay for example but it would be global.
Elements that they decay into would also show in vast increase or decrease.

Let us know if you need another cheap bridge. Someone may have one for sale for you.

and still - Computers are a product of quantum mechanics which says the universe has been the same since the beginning. no matter how much this butt hurts you.

Eternal is not what this universe is. Only in your religion. The standard model is a crock. It sure doesn't apply out of the fishbowl either.

and you know this how? (you don't)

The nature that God changed was not this one. Relax. It didn't involve this nature or changing stuff in it.

and more unproven crank

Blind saith.
and calendars. and radiodating, 3 types
and historical records


Not sure why you spam foolishness? Is the claim that Israel had to start in these high villages?
sorry, it's all scholarship. In your troll fantasy world you can pretend it's foolishness. If it makes you feel better.


Since David was the first king, this is news...how?


"
Modern archaeology has largely shown that determining the historicity of the religious narrative is impossible,[7] with many scholars viewing the stories as inspiring national myth narratives with little historical value.

Based on the archaeological evidence, according to the modern archaeological account, the Israelites and their culture did not overtake the region by force, but instead branched out of the indigenous Canaanite peoples that long inhabited the Southern Levant, Syria, ancient Israel, and the Transjordan region[8][9][10] through a gradual evolution of a distinct monolatristic—later cementing as monotheistic—religion centered on Yahweh."
 

dad

Undefeated
Show evidence beyond myths and make believe stories.
Your inability to verify records of man is not reason to deny out of hand the voluminous accounts of spirits in all history.


Not really. That's just what people find, that's the evidence. Most Jews don't quit their faith they simply realize that story was written by men as a myth
No one ever found out God's word was anything other than truth. Those who think they did were deceived.

No one wants to worship something that people find evidence against
No one found evidence against spirits or Scripture.

and the scientists quietly sweep it under the rug?
Nothing to sweep. They are ignorant.
The Catholics swore the earth was the center of the universe from scripture and from communications with spirtis.
God is moving here forever. It is the most important place in the universe. In fact the heavens we see out there will cease to exist in a day. The earth will still be here.

"The short answer is “no.” The whole subject of the Exodus is embarrassing to archaeologists. The Exodus is so fundamental to us and our Jewish sources that it is embarrassing that there is no evidence outside of the Bible to support it. So we prefer not to talk about it, and hate to be asked about it.For the account in the Torah is the basis of our people’s creation, it is the basis of our existence and it is the basis of our important Passover festival and the whole Haggada that we recite on the first evening of this festival of freedom. So that makes archaeologists reluctant to have to tell our brethren and ourselves that there is nothing in Egyptian records to support it. Nothing on the slavery of the Israelites, nothing on the plagues that persuaded Pharaoh to let them go, nothing on the miraculous crossing of the Red Sea, nothing."
Unbelievers lamenting over strawmen. No garbage is expected to be found since God was there leading them. What, you thought He was a litterbug? As for records of the humiliated and defeated nation of Egypt, one would expect a cover up.

What date, pick one date?
30,000 years ago.
History shows no evidence for different laws.
It does show spirits lived with us. It does show people lived long ages.

Even if laws were different how do you know it effected carbon decay?
If plants grew in other ways using other forces and laws, how would it not?

. If time had sped up or slowed down then it would not mater because all the events would still be relative. It doesn't change the order of events?
Not sure what you are talking about. Time is not an issue on earth, we know how it was since Adam.

But the serpent spoke with Eve.
So?
I suggest he speaks to so called science too. What about it?


We have the dates of the gospels figured out. There were 40 overall gospels being chosen from at the Council of Nicea in 313AD. The current canon is not the original but is a response canon to the Marcionite canon which is forever lost to us.
The records were compiled, not written in 313 AD.

"The majority of New Testament scholars agree that the Gospels do not contain eyewitness accounts;[56] instead, the four were written in and for various Christian communities for the purpose of proclamation, and as a result they present the theologies of their communities rather than the testimony of eyewitnesses."
Historical reliability of the Gospels - Wikipedia
No proof of such claims.

Whatever records you speak of are likely in your head
"Contrary to such theories and opinions, compilation of the Gospels actually began quite early—within one year after Jesus’ death and resurrection—not decades later."

..
Jesus Christ specifically chose those who would bear true witness of His teachings and ministry. Therefore, we can have full confidence and assurance that those who wrote the New Testament wrote the truth and nothing less.

The whole purpose of Christ’s life and ministry was to testify of the truth of God the Father and bring the way of salvation to mankind. Since Jesus is “the way, the truth and the life,” He was and is a true Witness of God. The Greek word for a witness is marturos, which “signifies one that gives testimony to the truth at the expense of his life” (Cruden’s Complete Concordance, 1986, p. 754). Jesus was the ultimate Witness, giving His life for the truth of God.

Christ—”the faithful Witness” (Rev. 1:5)—commanded His disciples to preach the Gospel to all nations as His witnesses. “And in His name, repentance and remission of sins should be preached to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. For you are witnesses of these things” (Luke 24:47-48).

..
The Gospel of Matthew: We know from the Gospel accounts that Matthew was with Jesus Christ during His entire ministry.

..
The Gospel of John: The historical acceptance of the apostle John as author of the Gospel of John is based on an ancient source. Edmond Hiebert, Th.D., writes: “In A.D. 324 or 325, Eusebius in his noted Ecclesiastical History recorded the results of his investigations concerning the four [G]ospels. He wrote about the apostle John, ‘His Gospel, which is known to all the churches under heaven, must be acknowledged as genuine.’ In the same chapter [Eusebius] asserts, ‘But of the writings of John, not only his Gospel, but also the former of his [E]pistles, have been accepted without dispute both now and in ancient times”

..
The Gospel of Mark: This Gospel is unique in that its writer, Mark, was probably a teenager during Jesus’ ministry. Mark identifies himself as the one who fled naked when Jesus was arrested on the night before His crucifixion (Mark 14:51-52). From this account we know that Mark was indeed an eyewitness to Jesus’ ministry, although he was not chosen to be an apostle

..
Luke himself offers important information about the writing of his Gospel. He begins his account: “Since many have taken in hand to compile a written narration of the matters which have been fully believed among us, as they delivered them to us, those who from the beginning had been eyewitnesses and ministers of the Word, it seemed good to me also, having accurately understood everything from the very first, to write these things in an orderly sequence to you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you might know the absolute certainty of the things in which you have been instructed” (Luke 1:1-4). Luke begins the book of Acts in much the same way, writing of the “things that Jesus began both to do and to teach, until the day in which He was taken up…” (Acts 1:1-2).

From the introductions to the Gospel of Luke and the book of Acts, it is apparent that Luke primarily used the written records of the apostles and the original disciples to write his Gospel and the first twelve chapters of Acts. The rest of the book of Acts is Luke’s eyewitness account of the apostle Paul’s ministry.

Who Wrote the New Testament?


Well hundreds of millions pretend in their minds they met Jesus today. Same with Lord Krishna, Vishnu, Brahman and countless others.

We are in no position to declare people liars when they encounter spirits, good or bad.
no if thermodynamics reversed time runs backward. Look it up.
Great, so now show that thermodynamics exists in the far universe? As for earth in the past, we would not be tinkering with present laws. Get over it. The present nature is the result of whatever existed before being changed, not a change here.

Yes but we are speaking of this in regards to LAWS CHANGING ON EARTH. UH_DER. If thermodynamics changed on earth time could run in reverse.
Nice try.

"And yet, despite how ambiguous time is, there are some facts about it that all observers can agree on. Perhaps the most fundamental — and yet perhaps the most puzzling as well — is that everyone, in their own inertial reference frame, always sees time moving forward at the same rate: one second-per-second. This fact is known as the arrow of time, and while there are many ideas as to what causes it, we know it isn't thermodynamics."

No, Thermodynamics Does Not Explain Our Perceived Arrow Of Time



Getting the world interested in the supernatural would be a huge shift in the consciousness of mankind.
Then cheer up that shift is coming. In the period just before Jesus returns to earth to rule forever, there will be angels here and demons coming out the wazoo.

I don't care how you justify your crap god killing women and children in Deut 22. There is no archeological evidence the Canaanites did aything else except sacrifice animals

Moloch - Wikipedia
The practice of sacrificing children was recorded in Scripture also, and one of the great sins of Israel, when some of them adopted heathen gods.

I do not need to justify the creator. Knowing He died for us and sets the slaves free and conquered death and is loving, I can trust that He acted in love.
 

dad

Undefeated
That is YOUR BELIEF. We have evidence that the laws have not changed.
You do not and that is why you cannot post any here.


Yes there is proof. If decay rates changed then we would see layers of rock where the laws changed be unusually abundant or reverse
Decay changed? You claim there was decay in the former nature? Proof?

Strawman argument.

and still - Computers are a product of quantum mechanics which says the universe has been the same since the beginning. no matter how much this butt hurts you.
Foolishness. How things work on earth now is not related to things being the same always.


and calendars. and radiodating, 3 types
and historical records
Calendars do not give ancient dates. You have one way.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Your inability to verify records of man is not reason to deny out of hand the voluminous accounts of spirits in all history.
I deny Santa Clause, alien abductions and all other stories without evidence.


No one ever found out God's word was anything other than truth. Those who think they did were deceived.

No most Christians know OT myths like Noahs Ark are not real. How they deal with this is different to each believer.
Did the Exodus actually happen?
From a Jewish publication:

"
Does it matter if the Exodus happened or didn’t?

Yes, it matters, contends Richard Elliott Friedman. The story of the Exodus may not be entirely factual, but there are real historic events behind it. It matters, because it’s the account we adopted, told and retold. It’s a story that also heralds the birth of monotheism. And, it’s a story that gives us the cornerstone, the ethical imperative to love others as ourselves."
They just come to terms with the fact that some of scripture was written by man.


No one found evidence against spirits or Scripture.
There is no evidence against Santa Clause or Big Foot. But most people know they are myth. The evidence points to all religion being man made mythology.

Nothing to sweep. They are ignorant.
Saying scientists are ignorant is basically saying I'm correct and you're just trying to preserve your butthurt ego.

God is moving here forever. It is the most important place in the universe. In fact the heavens we see out there will cease to exist in a day. The earth will still be here.

unless Bilbo can throw the ring in Mt Doom

Unbelievers lamenting over strawmen. No garbage is expected to be found since God was there leading them. What, you thought He was a litterbug? As for records of the humiliated and defeated nation of Egypt, one would expect a cover up.

You expect "liter" after 3 thousand years? A large exodus like in the myth would show many structures.

30,000 years ago.
That is before the Israelites were a nation?

It does show spirits lived with us. It does show people lived long ages.
Yes and it also shows a bearded man goes in everyones chimney on Christmas. Myths do not count as evidence.

If plants grew in other ways using other forces and laws, how would it not?
I ask again, how do you know these "different laws" effected carbon decay. It doesn't mean every law was different?
In fact radiometric dating of the OT manuscripts from Nag Hamandi demonstrate they are the correct age Christians hoped they would be. So carbon dating was effective. It also demonstrated some other gospels which contradict the canon were late inventions. Like the Thomas gospel. Again, seems to be correct.

Not sure what you are talking about. Time is not an issue on earth, we know how it was since Adam.
So you do not think time was also altered in this "different laws" senario? How would you know this?


I suggest he speaks to so called science too. What about it?
It shows the serpent/devil was not the same character until they incorporated the Persian version into the scripture.

The records were compiled, not written in 313 AD.
Never said they were written in 313, I know the actual history.

No proof of such claims.
The gospels are the proof and this is the consensus opinion of scholarship

"Despite the traditional ascriptions all four are anonymous, and most scholars agree that none were written by eyewitnesses.["
Like the rest of the New Testament, the four gospels were written in Greek.[32] The Gospel of Mark probably dates from c. AD 66–70,[3] Matthew and Luke around AD 85–90,[33] and John AD 90–110.[

"Contrary to such theories and opinions, compilation of the Gospels actually began quite early—within one year after Jesus’ death and resurrection—not decades later."

.."Most modern scholars hold that the canonical Gospel accounts were written between 70 and 100 or 110 CE,["
Jesus Christ specifically chose those who would bear true witness of His teachings and ministry. Therefore, we can have full confidence and assurance that those who wrote the New Testament wrote the truth and nothing less.

Your source has a BA in Theology, is counter to the entire PhD Biblical historicity field and is not even qualified to write anything but crank apologetics.
If you want to use a source, stick to the field.

"Historicity of the Bible - Wikipedia"
Most modern scholars hold that the canonical Gospel accounts were written between 70 and 100 or 110 CE

These dates are Widely agreed on by Christian scholars.

"It is commonly thought that the writers of the Gospel of Matthew and Gospel of Luke used Mark as a source, with changes and improvement to peculiarities and crudities in Mark.[76]"


The whole purpose of Christ’s life and ministry was to testify of the truth of God the Father and bring the way of salvation to mankind. S.

Who cares? Every religion is there to testify of the truth of their diety and only through their magic can you get to the happy afterlife.

For you are witnesses of these things” (Luke 24:47-48).

Actually Luke is the most aggregious in taking OT stories and re-using them in transformed order

We know from the Gospel accounts that Matthew was with Jesus Christ during His entire ministry.

Matthew copies Mark: - 93% of Mark is paralleled in Matthew;

"It is commonly thought that the writers of the Gospel of Matthew and Gospel of Luke used Mark as a source, with changes and improvement to peculiarities and crudities in Mark.[76]"
"The relationship among the three synoptic gospels goes beyond mere similarity in viewpoint. The gospels often recount the same stories, usually in the same order, sometimes using the same words. Scholars note that the similarities between Mark, Matthew, and Luke are too great to be coincidental.["

Initially it was believed there was a source gospel they all copied from called Q or Quela - source. Now it's been shown that Mark was the source.
Mark Goodacre has demonstrated it extremely likely that there was no Q and Mark was the original source
Mark Goodacre - Wikipedia
..
The Gospel of John

"John reached its final form around AD 90–110,[4] although it contains signs of origins dating back to AD 70 and possibly even earlier.[5] Like the three other gospels, it is anonymous," NOTE - anonymous
Gospel of John - Wikipedia


". Every Gospel is just an embellished redaction of Mark. Even John (" Carrier PhD

..
The Gospel of Mark


"The Gospel of Mark is anonymous.[10] Most scholars date it to AD 65–75;[6] it was written in Greek, for a gentile audience, and probably in Rome,"
Gospel of Mark - Wikipedia

BTW do you know what Euangélion katà Mârkon) MEANS?
The Gospel According to Mark (Greek: Εὐαγγέλιον κατὰ Μᾶρκον, romanized: Euangélion katà Mârkon)

"AS TOLD TO ME BY MARK"[/QUOTE]
 
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joelr

Well-Known Member
Luke himself offers important information about the writing of his Gospel. He begins his account: “Since many have taken in hand to compile a written narration of the matters which have b.


"Luke–Acts does not name its author.[7] According to Church tradition this was Luke the Evangelist, the companion of Paul, but while this view is still occasionally put forward the scholarly consensus emphasises the many contradictions between Acts and the authentic Pauline letters.[8][9] The most probable date for its composition is around AD 80–110, and there is evidence that it was still being revised well into the 2nd century.[10]"

Gospel of Luke - Wikipedia




From the introductions to the Gospel of Luke and the book of Acts, it is apparent that Luke primarily used the written records of the apostles and the original disciples to write his Gospel and the first twelve chapters of Acts. The rest of the book of Acts is Luke’s eyewitness account of the apostle Paul’s ministry.

Acts and the Gospel of Luke make up a two-part work, Luke–Acts, by the same anonymous author, usually dated to around 80–90 AD.[v
ANONYMOUS AUTHOR

Who Wrote the New Testament?
HA HA BA in theology.


We are in no position to declare people liars when they encounter spirits, good or bad.

NO we are in a position to ask for evidence before we believe extraordinary stories.





Great, so now show that thermodynamics exists in the far universe? As for earth in the past, we would not be tinkering with present laws. Get over it. The present nature is the result of whatever existed before being changed, not a change here.
Because we see entropy increase in the far universe. Any reference to your turtles/fishbowl theory without a source or evidence will result in erasure of the time wasting troll post.

Nice try.
No if you read the article it says macroscopic events would run in reverse in thermodynamics were reversed.
NOt time at the quantum scale but that's why I said macroscopic. Events would run in reverse.

"-per-second. This fact is known as the arrow of time, and while there are many ideas as to what causes it, we know it isn't thermodynamics."

If thermodynamics were reversed things would appear to run backwards in time, regardless of the actual tike dimension. We would see these results now in the present. This is my point.

No, Thermodynamics Does Not Explain Our Perceived Arrow Of Time
It does explain our macroscopic view of time. I am not invoking time as the 4th dimension from spacetime. Entropy causes what we THINK OF as forward in time movement. Eggs un-breaking and forming a whole egg. A volcano un-erupting and going back into the earth. This would appear as time running backwards. Reversing entropy would still have this effect.






Then cheer up that shift is coming. In the period just before Jesus returns to earth to rule forever, there will be angels here and demons coming out the wazoo.
For 2000 years people have been saying this. It's cute that you think you are so special that you will be the one who sees it while billions of past Christians and other apocalyptic weirdos were preaching the end and it never happened. They ended but the world still goes on. Congrats on still believing Zoroastrian end-of -the -world-in-fire myths.
Good for you.

Moloch - Wikipedia
The practice of sacrificing children was recorded in Scripture also, and one of the great sins of Israel, when some of them adopted heathen gods.
Historical records of Canaaite digs show no evidence for Child sacrifice. Why would Yahweh be so insecure about someone worshipping a different god? What a lame god? He wanted Israelites to kill women and children from 6 cities because they grew up worshipping a different god. Yahwehs solution is to kill them? Not teach them, kill them.
Pathetic. But of course no god wrote this. The Isralite people wrote this, they are scriptures where some dud is pretending to be getting a "message" from a god from 3000 years ago. And you buy into it. Ha.

I do not need to justify the creator. Knowing He died for us and sets the slaves free and conquered death and is loving, I can trust that He acted in love.
Exodus 21 allows for any type of non-Hebrew slavery, permanent and the slavery included their children.
No one died for you? Jesus came back to life then went to heaven. How is that a sacrifice?
Loving? How about the plague in Israel? How about all the murder. Or hell for non-believers?
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
You do not and that is why you cannot post any here.
yes we have a theory that the laws of physics emerged once the universe cooled down for the forces to separate.
No evidence for any other changes possible.

Decay changed? You claim there was decay in the former nature? Proof?
Ok, no decay, we can use that. If there were no decay then we would see 2x as many elements in rock layers corresponding to that "law change" era. Different laws would have consequences and leave traces. So it isn't a strawman. Can you even get your literary fallacies correct?

What's happening here is you are afraid to give specifics on your idea about "nature change". You seem to think as a nebulous concept it's meaningful in making a point. It isn't. It really isn't when you canot define what it means, what laws changed or anything of substance. It's basically a magic ring.
"Mesopotamian scrolls date to...
. "nope....magic ring changes that......."
"changes what, decay rates?"
"STRAWMAN! NO it's a magic ring"
"Ok is there evidence of.."
NO!. Magic ring erases evidence and fixes any mistakes in my magic book."



Foolishness. How things work on earth now is not related to things being the same always.
until proven otherwise thereis no reason to think a magic ring changed any laws

Calendars do not give ancient dates. You have one way.
huh...

"The oldest calendar still in use is the Jewish calendar, which has been in popular use since the 9th century BC. It is based on biblical calculations that place the creation at 3761 BC."
 

dad

Undefeated
I deny Santa Clause, alien abductions and all other stories without evidence.
I deny the BB, doom of the universe, origin of the moon, and first lifeform and all other so called science stories without evidence.

No most Christians know OT myths like Noahs Ark are not real.
They either believe or not.


"
Does it matter if the Exodus happened or didn’t?

Yes, it matters, contends Richard Elliott Friedman. The story of the Exodus may not be entirely factual,
Woulda coulda shoulda doubts.

but there are real historic events behind it. It matters, because it’s the account we adopted, told and retold. It’s a story that also heralds the birth of monotheism.
Speculation based on diddly squat and a biased imagination.


They just come to terms with the fact that some of scripture was written by man.
Believers know all Scripture was given by inspiration of God, and that doubting this is of man and demons.

unless Bilbo can throw the ring in Mt Doom
This is a family site, tone it down. :)

You expect "liter" after 3 thousand years? A large exodus like in the myth would show many structures.
In other words the remains of the trip they look for.

That is before the Israelites were a nation?
God and His people pre date Israel.

I ask again, how do you know these "different laws" effected carbon decay. It doesn't mean every law was different?
I will look at that as soon as you prove there was decay at all?
In fact radiometric dating of the OT manuscripts from Nag Hamandi demonstrate they are the correct age Christians hoped they would be.
Same state past dating is fine until we get near the time of the epoch change. Even when we get too close to the transition time dates fail, because they depend on correlations that are also absolutely affected.


So you do not think time was also altered in this "different laws" senario? How would you know this?
I have no reason to assume time was affected, we know there were days and years right from Genesis. (although the length of a year was different by several days, probably due to orbital realignments))


.."Most modern scholars hold that the canonical Gospel accounts were written between 70 and 100 or 110 CE,["
They can guess all night long.

Your source has a BA in Theology, is counter to the entire PhD Biblical historicity field

Quit trying to wow us with titles and degrees of ignorance.


Who cares? Every religion is there to testify of the truth of their diety and only through their magic can you get to the happy afterlife.
They are correct that there is an afterlife. So called science is the philosophy that is ignorant of all things spiritual and eternal. It ignores eternity and posits an animalistic meaningless short life that reflects the barking mad demented and demeaning view from the dark side that it represents.

Scholars note that the similarities between Mark, Matthew, and Luke are too great to be coincidental
We might add that the entire bible and harmonious flow of events and prophesy fulfillment are too great to be coincidental! The issue is the reason for the amazing accord..
 
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