Classic failed science predictions and a faulty cosmological model exposed

[Revoltingest]

Great, too bad cosmology uses it eh?

They use spacetime....not a claim that space & time are the same thing.

 

[joelr]

I never asked for a belief based timeline. I asked for you to produce writings you claim exist that had actual dates from over 5000 years ago.

I told you the age of writing is around 3000BC. ALl records had dates, all cultures used 12 month calendars and all calendars were blended into new calendars right up to the Hebrew calendar.

"A large number of Ancient Near East calendar systems based on the Babylonian calendar date from the Iron Age, among them the calendar system of the Persian Empire, which in turn gave rise to the Zoroastrian calendar and the Hebrew calendar.[4]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendar

I do not have a problem with the current dating scholarship puts on civilizations. If you do then provide an argument with evidence. If you cannot show evidence I will assume you have lost yet another line of debate and delete your silly repetitive posts.

You are not equipped to say what they were.

Ha, that's a terrible comeback!
Am I not equipped to say Zeus and Hercules were a myth? Anyone is.
But I'll let scholarship say it for me:
Christian mythology - Wikipedia

"Many cultures have myths about a flood that cleanses the world in preparation for rebirth.[62][63] Such stories appear on every inhabited continent on earth.[63] An example is the biblical story of Noah.[62][64] In The Oxford Companion to World Mythology, David Leeming notes that, in the Bible story, as in other flood myths, the flood marks a new beginning and a second chance for creation and humanity.[62]"

Who borrowed what depends on when the flood was, not when written Scripture was introduced.

First of all there was no global flood but it doesn't matter. Epic of Gilamesh was written then centuries later around 10BC the Israelite flood myths were written.
The end. You have no argument.
The author of Harry Potter could write a flood myth tomorrow that says "this flood pre-dates all other floods and is the real actual flood from god" and it would not magically be the first flood.

i know better. I guess you are not familiar with the issues here.

Says the internet troll with no evidence and myths as the primary and only evidence.

You think you do. Show us how a calandar exists for pre 5000 years ago and how you translate it?

Not 5000 years but Mesopotamian calendars merged into the Hebrew calendar system.
Why this matters I do not know because you can never prove any flood myth actually happened. But you can prove flood myths are super-common myths written into religious scripture of every culture and each culture believes their version is the actual real version.
That worked great for ancient civilizations. We no longer believe nonsense as literal. It's a story about transformation, rebirth and other mythic themes.

They date this by radioactive decay dating I suspect. If not, then show the exact basis for the dates claimed.

I've already shown evidence that calendars were merged. Even still radioactive dating works fine. If you are trying to desperately show the Mesopotamian empire was after the Israelite civilization, which is a fairly recent civilization then I don't want to debate that kind of crazy.

You do see things in the fishbowl where spacetime exists. So?

Yup and we see them also operate exactly the same in deep space.

What we do see is His record from Adam on down, with years from each son listed. We also see a world greatly different in the future and past.

Hmmm, fishbowl, changing time, different physics, it's almost like you're using a bunch of bronze age fiction as a science guide.....

Christian mythology is the body of myths associated with Christianity. The term encompasses a broad variety of legends and stories, especially those considered sacred narratives. Mythological themes and elements occur throughout Christian literature, including recurring myths such as ascending to a mountain, the axis mundi, myths of combat, descent into the Underworld, accounts of a dying-and-rising god, flood stories, stories about the founding of a tribe or city, and myths about great heroes (or saints) of the past, paradises, and self-sacrifice.

 

[joelr]

You have blind faith in their same nature in the past religion. Yet you can't really comprehend or debate it. OK.

Says the person who thinks a book about magic and gods is science.
I don't have "blind faith" because I follow evidence. I can debate it, show me the evidence to debate.
If I show you my evidence and it's a Marvel Comic book, I lose. Religious myths as evidence, you lose.

Show me evidence that any nature was different. If you can't then you have no debate. Just crazy-person beliefs.

Easy. We know when Abraham lived, and it was close to the time Noah lived, some say they were contemporaries.

Nope. The worlds leading biblical archeologist trumps internet troll, sorry.

"The faith of Abraham
According to the Bible, the first person to form a covenant with God is Abraham. He is the great patriarch. Is there archeological evidence for Abraham?
One of the first efforts of biblical archeology in the last century was to prove the historicity of the patriarchs, to locate them in a particular period in the archeological history. Today I think most archeologists would argue that there is no direct archeological proof that Abraham, for instance, ever lived. We do know a lot about pastoral nomads, we know about the Amorites' migrations from Mesopotamia to Canaan, and it's possible to see in that an Abraham-like figure somewhere around 1800 B.C.E. But there's no direct connection."

Go ahead, call him some name, ignorant maybe? Get it out of your system.

You cannot support the dates and appear unaware of how they are actually attained.

calendars. Monthly. all civilizations used them.

Rather than spam dates, support them.

The calendars were merged and changed to BCE/AD and such from another yearly system. Babylonia started around 1700

"The use of the date formulas was supplanted in Babylonia by the counting of regnal years in the 17th century bce."
"When in the 17th century bce the dating by regnal years became usual, the period between the accession day and the next Nisanu 1 was described as “the beginning of the kingship of PN,” and the regnal years were counted from this Nisanu 1."

Again, I trust scholarships dates. If you don't prove them wrong? All you have is crank troll bro-science based on fiction and you want ME to prove dates? No.

So called believers are welcome to disbelieve God's word.

Prove they are gods word.

We can't say if ancient spirits influenced Greece using science.

No, we can say. The answer is no. Greek epics are myths.

No need. Science can't say. It is a matter of belief. Yoour dates sure can't be supported.

Except with calendars and radio dating. As well as knowledge taught to people for centuries about the first civilizations. Noah was written about in 9BC. So he's fiction from 9BC.

False. If the Almighty was there, why would I assume campsites would have not been cleaned up? The manna was!

Ha! Perfect. Another common go-to for religious people encountering lack of evidence - "Oh God just cleaned it up"....HA. Envoking a fictional deity whom you have no proof for to clean up after hundreds of thousands of people is classic failologetics.

"
Evidence of the Exodus
Q: You and other scholars point out that there isn't evidence outside the Bible, in historic documents and the archeological record, for a mass migration from Egypt involving hundreds of thousands of people. But it may be plausible that there was a much smaller exodus, an exodus of people originally from the land of Canaan who were returning to it. Is that right?"

NOVA | The Bible's Buried Secrets | Moses and the Exodus | PBS this interview explains what Exodus probably means and where it came from.

It shows rebels existed in Israel.

No news there. Doesn't prove gods and magic. But this is the reason for the new religion. Israelites starting out as a people started assimilating their own versions of myths from older cultures. They took a god already being used in stories and eventually made him the main god. Something already done in Egypt. These are myths created by people because civilizations needed myths to survive.
They were rebelling from the Canaanites.

Careful what you ask for. I would suggest you pray for God to have His Good spirit revealed to you.

I was Christian, I prayed. what was revealed eventually is that every religion thinks they are in communication with the actual god and each one is the only correct one. Clearly they are all fooling themselves. Confirmation bias works for everyone.
But personal experience is not a factor here.

 

[dad]

They use spacetime....not a claim that space & time are the same thing.

They do not know what time is like out there or space. The only place they know what it is like to some extent in in the fishbowl.

 

[dad]

I told you the age of writing is around 3000BC. ALl records had dates, all cultures used 12 month calendars and all calendars were blended into new calendars right up to the Hebrew calendar.

Empty words. I don't believe you. Show the basis for the dates. Who cares what calendars someone uses? Show where they offered dates pre 5000 years ago exactly.

"A large number of Ancient Near East calendar systems based on the Babylonian calendar date from the Iron Age, among them the calendar system of the Persian Empire, which in turn gave rise to the Zoroastrian calendar and the Hebrew calendar.[4]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendar

That says nothing about a date. That talks of the type of calendars people used. If I say we use the Julian calendar do you think that gave a date?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendar#cite_note-4

Ha, that's a terrible comeback!
Am I not equipped to say Zeus and Hercules were a myth? Anyone is.

No. You are not. In fact some say Zeus was another name Satan used. Who knows? You can't wave it away.

"Many cultures have myths about a flood that cleanses the world in preparation for rebirth.[62][63] Such stories appear on every inhabited continent on earth.

Stories got passed down, however skewed some may be.

Epic of Gilamesh was written then centuries later around 10BC the Israelite flood myths were written.

Give the basis for the date you claim.

Not 5000 years but Mesopotamian calendars merged into the Hebrew calendar system.

That gives no date.

Why this matters I do not know because you can never prove any flood myth actually happened. But you can prove flood myths are super-common myths written into religious scripture of every culture and each culture believes their version is the actual real version.

Science has nothing to say about the flood either way. The proofs for Scripture are above the pay grade of science.

I've already shown evidence that calendars were merged.

No dates are gotten from that. Show the oldest calendar and any date it contains?

Even still radioactive dating works fine.

In the present nature, yes, of course. It does not carry over to the past.

If you are trying to desperately show the Mesopotamian empire was after the Israelite civilization, which is a fairly recent civilization then I don't want to debate that kind of crazy.

The flood was before all empires. The flood never happened after there was an Israel. This is news?

Yup and we see them also operate exactly the same in deep space.

You do not see time there. You see anything that operates here. Never anywhere else.

 

[dad]

Show me evidence that any nature was different. If you can't then you have no debate. Just crazy-person beliefs.

Show me evidence that any nature was the same. If you can't then you have no debate. Just crazy-person beliefs.

"The faith of Abraham
According to the Bible, the first person to form a covenant with God is Abraham. He is the great patriarch. Is there archeological evidence for Abraham?
One of the first efforts of biblical archeology in the last century was to prove the historicity of the patriarchs, to locate them in a particular period in the archeological history. Today I think most archeologists would argue that there is no direct archeological proof that Abraham, for instance, ever lived. We do know a lot about pastoral nomads, we know about the Amorites' migrations from Mesopotamia to Canaan, and it's possible to see in that an Abraham-like figure somewhere around 1800 B.C.E. But there's no direct connection."

Blather. What did he think he would find, some sheep Abe used to own?

calendars. Monthly. all civilizations used them.

Show us a date in the oldest calendar.

The calendars were merged and changed to BCE/AD and such from another yearly system. Babylonia started around 1700

"The use of the date formulas was supplanted in Babylonia by the counting of regnal years in the 17th century bce."
"When in the 17th century bce the dating by regnal years became usual, the period between the accession day and the next Nisanu 1 was described as “the beginning of the kingship of PN,” and the regnal years were counted from this Nisanu 1."

Show us a date from the oldest calendar. Try to face reality here.

No, we can say. The answer is no. Greek epics are myths.

Not if based on real spirits. You have no possible way to know.

Except with calendars and radio dating. As well as knowledge taught to people for centuries about the first civilizations. Noah was written about in 9BC. So he's fiction from 9BC.

There are no dates in early calendars and radio dating is nothing but a cheap belief nature was the same.

"
Evidence of the Exodus
Q: You and other scholars point out that there isn't evidence outside the Bible, in historic documents and the archeological record, for a mass migration from Egypt involving hundreds of thousands of people. But it may be plausible that there was a much smaller exodus, an exodus of people originally from the land of Canaan who were returning to it. Is that right?"

No.

There was a mass exodus from Egypt.

I was Christian, I prayed. what was revealed eventually is that every religion thinks they are in communication with the actual god and each one is the only correct one. Clearly they are all fooling themselves. Confirmation bias works for everyone.
But personal experience is not a factor here.

Not all spirits can be good.

 

[Revoltingest]

They do not know what time is like out there or space. The only place they know what it is like to some extent in in the fishbowl.

Just use the same level of faith you apply to scripture.

 

[dad]

Just use the same level of faith you apply to scripture.

I would not say that is science. You should be so honest.

 

[joelr]

Empty words. I don't believe you. Show the basis for the dates. Who cares what calendars someone uses? Show where they offered dates pre 5000 years ago exactly.

I don't care what you believe? The Assyrian calendar is still working today. It can be traced back to specific events from this Mesopotamian civilization because they dated all historical records using their calendar.

"The Assyrian new year is still celebrated every year with festivals and gatherings. As of June 2020 AD, it is the 6770th year of the Assyrian calendar, and this calendar is used among many Assyrian communities. It begins 4,750 years before the Gregorian calendar; to calculate the current year (after April 1) in the Assyrian calendar, add 4750 to the current Georgian calendar year (4750 + 2020 = Assyrian year 6770).
The Assyrians go back to around 2500BC.

That says nothing about a date. That talks of the type of calendars people used. If I say we use the Julian calendar do you think that gave a date?

What Regal years mean is they call the first year "1" and by the time you get to the Hebrew calendar you can count exactly how many years have passed and when events happened.

No. You are not. In fact some say Zeus was another name Satan used. Who knows? You can't wave it away.

Satan is a Persian concept added into the OT after the invasion. Pure mythology.

Stories got passed down, however skewed some may be.

All are myths. SHow evidence for these myths being real.

Give the basis for the date you claim.

The Epic of Gilgamesh (/ˈɡɪlɡəmɛʃ/)[1] is an epic poem from ancient Mesopotamia that is often regarded as the earliest surviving great work of literature and the second oldest religious text, after the Pyramid Texts. The literary history of Gilgamesh begins with five Sumerian poems about Bilgamesh (Sumerian for "Gilgamesh"), king of Uruk, dating from the Third Dynasty of Ur (c. 2100 BC).

Scholars in the first half of the 20th century came to the conclusion that the Yahwist is a product of the monarchic period, specifically at the court of Solomon, 10th century BC, and the Priestly work in the middle of the 5th century BC (with claims that the author is Ezra), but more recent thinking is that the Yahwist is from either just before or during the Babylonian exile of the 6th century BC, and the Priestly final edition was made late in the Exilic period or soon after.[

If you disagree with scholarship present and argument with evidence or continue trolling crank nonsense

That gives no date.

"During the 6th century BC Babylonian captivity of the Hebrews, the Babylonian month names were adopted into the Hebrew calendar. The Assyrian calendar used in Iraq and the Levant also uses many of the same names for its months, such as Iyyar, Tammuz, Ab, Elul, Tishri, and Adar."
Babylonian calendar - Wikipedia

Science has nothing to say about the flood either way. The proofs for Scripture are above the pay grade of science.

Ha, great way to say your myths are total fantasy Lord of the Rings crank.

No dates are gotten from that. Show the oldest calendar and any date it contains?

"Pre-exilic Hebrews were in contact with other cultures that progressively intercalated with increasing precision since 2100 B.C. upto 540 B.C. when post-exilic Hebrews adopted much of Babylonian calendrics."

Babylon calendars were very exact as were previous cultures. All dates and events can be found just using 12 month calendars.
If you want to see the oldest calendar, look it up.

In the present nature, yes, of course. It does not carry over to the past.

I don’t see any need to signal boost a crank piece of pseudoscience that no one buys into but its own loony author

The flood was before all empires. The flood never happened after there was an Israel. This is news?

the flood is a myth. Like Sauron and the Force.

You do not see time there. You see anything that operates here. Never anywhere else.

Crank piece of pseudoscience that no one buys into but its own loony author. Evidence up or continue being wrong.

 

[joelr]

Show me evidence that any nature was the same. If you can't then you have no debate. Just crazy-person beliefs.

There are no theories that allow arbitrary change. The physical constants of nature do not change. Nothing in the past look as if it came from different laws of nature.
It's called evidence. If you meet a person do you assume they were a grey alien the day before? Nope. YOu need a reason to have a hypothesis.
Which "nature" do you claim would have to change?

Blather. What did he think he would find, some sheep Abe used to own?

Doesn't did-prove the movement. Adds evidence that its the same typr of movement as all other nations. Mythic religious fiction.

Show us a date in the oldest calendar.

Sometime between the 4th and 1st century B.C., the Hebrews adopted the Babylonian intercalary calendar, modified it, and retroactively defined the 1st Hebrew intercalary cycle to begin 3761 B.C., and 158 full 19-year cycles 'later', plus 12 years, the Babylonian king Nabonassar began theirs in 748/747 B.C.

The oldest calendars require radioactive dating which you will whine and cry about so I'm showing that the Babylonian calendars were merged so you could understand the older dates that were not in the new BC/AD format.

Do you know how to do research? Are you able to do things on your own. Do you need me to find all information for you?

Not if based on real spirits. You have no possible way to know.

Until evidence is presents Zeus is fan fiction. Same as current issues of X-Men. Or do you believe those are true as well....

There are no dates in early calendars and radio dating is nothing but a cheap belief nature was the same.

The Babylon calendar would go back that far. I'm sticking with current scholarship over internet crank pseudoscience with no evidence.

"At one extreme are those who see it as a product of the Hellenistic period, in which case it cannot be earlier than the first decades of the 4th century BCE;[12] on the other hand the Yahwist (Jahwist) source has been dated by others, notably John Van Seters, to the exilic pre-Persian period (the 6th century BCE), precisely because the primeval history contains so much Babylonian influence in the form of myth.[13]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_flood_narrative#cite_note-Seters-15

No.There was a mass exodus from Egypt.

Wow! What a great comeback!........."no".....Well I win yet another one.
It's a double win because you're constantly whining for evidence and dates yet you haven't provided one single bit of evidence in this entire exchange.

Not all spirits can be good.

Prove spirits exist.

 

[dad]

I don't care what you believe? The Assyrian calendar is still working today. It can be traced back to specific events from this Mesopotamian civilization because they dated all historical records using their calendar.

Events that you cannot date and if you try it would be through same nature in the past belief based radioactive dating.

"The Assyrian new year is still celebrated every year with festivals and gatherings. As of June 2020 AD, it is the 6770th year of the Assyrian calendar

The basis for that seems to be recent and rested on the

"The modern Assyrian calendar was introduced in the 1950s, loosely based on the historical lunisolar Babylonian calendar. The era was fixed at 4750 BC. This was inspired by an estimate of the date of the first temple at Ashur in the Middle Ubaid period,"

Assyrian calendar

The dates cited for Ashur are these..

"Ashur and Qal'at Sherqat, was the capital of the Old Assyrian Empire (2025–1750 BC)"

Assur - Wikipedia

Since this is post flood, there is no need to look at the way they dated this.

Your calendar does not give dates before Babel, or the flood.

Satan is a Persian concept added into the OT after the invasion. Pure mythology.

No. Someone sold you a bridge cheap.

The Epic of Gilgamesh (/ˈɡɪlɡəmɛʃ/)[1] is an epic poem from ancient Mesopotamia that is often regarded as the earliest surviving great work of literature and the second oldest religious text, after the Pyramid Texts. The literary history of Gilgamesh begins with five Sumerian poems about Bilgamesh (Sumerian for "Gilgamesh"), king of Uruk, dating from the Third Dynasty of Ur (c. 2100 BC).

Even if we went with your dates unquestioningly, this is post flood.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Genesis#cite_note-Davies37-9
If you disagree with scholarship present and argument with evidence

Scholarship has none why would anyone else need any?

"During the 6th century BC Babylonian captivity of the Hebrews, the Babylonian month names were adopted into the Hebrew calendar.

So what? Lots of influences came as a result of the fulfilled prophesy that was the captivity in Babylon.

Babylon calendars were very exact as were previous cultures. All dates and events can be found just using 12 month calendars.
If you want to see the oldest calendar, look it up.

None of it matters at all unless it goes back to dates before the flood. They don't. Ha.

 

[dad]

There are no theories that allow arbitrary change. The physical constants of nature do not change. Nothing in the past look as if it came from different laws of nature.
It's called evidence. If you meet a person do you assume they were a grey alien the day before? Nope. YOu need a reason to have a hypothesis.
Which "nature" do you claim would have to change?

The nature that we know constants for is the present nature only!

The oldest calendars require radioactive dating

So you lose!

Until evidence is presents Zeus is fan fiction

That spirit would have lieved loooong ago. You can't even see spirits now. Stop pretending to be able to rule them out.

Prove spirits exist.

Try to remember this is a science thread and science is deaf dumb and blind to anything spiritual.

 

[joelr]

Events that you cannot date and if you try it would be through same nature in the past belief based radioactive dating.

until you provide evidence that any laws of nature were or could be different this is crank.

The basis for that seems to be recent and rested on the

The modern Assyrian calendar was introduced in the 1950s, loosely based on the historical lunisolar Babylonian calendar. The era was fixed at 4750 BC. This was inspired by an estimate of the date of the first temple at Ashur in the Middle Ubaid period,"

There was no flood.You have no flood , what you have are flood myths written around 9BC by Israelites. A fiction about a flood a long time ago. Myths taken from Mesopotamian flood myths which we know are far older.
We don't need to know about natural laws being different to know the Mesopotamian civilizations pre-date the Israelites in 9BC.

All scholarship recognizes the Noah story is religious synchretism using older flood myths. I do not care what an internet troll believes. I only care about evidence. The evidence is clear.

No. Someone sold you a bridge cheap.

Ahh, good, thank you for conceding my point. When you come back with no evidence, no argument to your point but rather a mundane "no". You clearly cannot defend your position. Why you just state your beliefs I don't know because I am not interested in your beliefs?

Now I will do what you cannot.
Nora Elisabeth Mary Boyce (2 August 1920 – 4 April 2006) was a British scholar of Iranian languages, and an authority on Zoroastrianism. Spent 1 year living among modern Zoroastrin members to establish what their original doctrines were. The concept of the "evil god/spirit" in opposition to the main god came from Persia. After the Persian invasion of Judea this version of the devil was slowly written into the OT. More religious synchretism.

"Zoroaster was thus the first to teach the doctrines of an individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, the future resurrection of the body, the general Last Judgment, and life everlasting for the reunited soul and body. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by Judaism, Christianity and Islam.[30]"

They were the first to talk about a world savior god as well and is likely where the Jews got the idea.

Even if we went with your dates unquestioningly, this is post flood.

Yes those are the dates the Epic was written. However the Epic of Gilamesh is also a MYTH. No flood ever happened. It's a story about transformation and re-birth and helps people during times of starting over.
It's not supposed to be read like a DC comic book.

Scholarship has none why would anyone else need any?

Scholarship always sources material. Usually the most original sources possible. If you disagree present an argument why the sources are wrong, with evidence to make you argument plausible. IF you cannot you have no argument. If you still insist your just a troll pushing crank.

So what? Lots of influences came as a result of the fulfilled prophesy that was the captivity in Babylon.

God made many promises about this and that. A few match and the ones that don't you say "will still happen".
Not convincing. Not even really prophecies? Isaiah's prophecy was Babylon OR Persia (?). As if it's hard to imagine conquering nations nearby are coming to invade eventually during a time nations were invading all over the place?

None of it matters at all unless it goes back to dates before the flood. They don't. Ha.

There was no flood. There are myths about floods. Hundreds of them. Your book of myths has one of them.

 

[joelr]

The nature that we know constants for is the present nature only!

No because things happened in the past similar to how they do now. If there was a period where aws were different there would be evidence. But first you would need evidence that certain laws could change, a reason why, a method, would it be possible, would it violate other laws like conservation of energy. Without evidence your supporting crank ideas and I'm really done signal boosting your crank.

So you lose!

First of all something requiring radioactive dating isn't a "loss" because it's been shown to be reliable. First you would have to show it's not reliable. 2nd I don't know if they radio date the oldest calendars or not.
As I stated before I was staying away from radioactive dating because you don't do actual real rational debates. You make up fake straw-man problems and insert them into the argument without evidence, proof, source or anything that would validate them and them whine and cry about how your crank is a valid reason.
The "loss" I take is having to debate more with a 9 year old.

The calendar issue is done. Mesopotamian myths are older than Israel's myths. So the evidence suggests the OT authors copied the Epic of Gilamesh.
That's it. I do not care about your fake flood or your crank beliefs.
As to an actual "loss", no I've beaten you with evidence on every single topic while all you have done is state beliefs without real evidence. Radio dating would be no different, I show good evidence, you say unsupported beliefs. Nah.

That spirit would have lieved loooong ago. You can't even see spirits now. Stop pretending to be able to rule them out.

Zeus is a myth. So is Thor and his father Odin. Yahweh is another. If they are real provide evidence.

Try to remember this is a science thread and science is deaf dumb and blind to anything spiritual.

Oh than you lose. Again.

If there is no evidence than belief is unwarranted. You can believe in myths all day but until there is evidence they are just myths.

As usual you are still wrong, double-wrong. Because science has investigated supernatural phenomena many many times.


Remote viewing - Wikipedia
Ingo Swann - Wikipedia
Extrasensory perception - Wikipedia
you will find many links to studies, they always produce random chance results.

Clearly you do not know WIlliam Tiller who is a PhD studying supernatural energies
"
William A. Tiller is a professor emeritus of materials science and engineering at Stanford University.[1] He is also the author of Science and Human Transformation, a book about concepts such as subtle energies beyond the four fundamental forces, which he believes act in concert with human consciousness. Tiller appeared in the 2004 film What the Bleep Do We Know!?.[2]"
William A. Tiller - Wikipedia

Then look up studies on prayer - doesn't work. Yes a scientific study was done, many times.
Uneducated religion trolls tend to be unaware that many studies have been done on supernatural areas.
Lynn Mctaggart reports many of the bias results in her book The Field. Unfortunately she cooks data and many experiments re-done by other teams were unable to produce similar results. As I found out in an article fully debunking her picking and choosing of results on experiments with consciousness and random number generators.
And that Asian guy who talks to water and makes it all happy as seen in What the Bleep Do We Know, yeah that's been re-done many times, it's fake.
All those Law of Attraction people have never been able to demonstrate results yet the premise is you can change reality with your mind!? They can't hide behind a silent deity like religion. They claim consciousness directly changes reality and cannot make one single demonstration. Years ago this was a big thing after the Secret came out. All crank.

Science tries, problem is this stuff doesn't seem to be real.

 

[dad]

until you provide evidence that any laws of nature were or could be different this is crank.



There was no flood.You have no flood , what you have are flood myths written around 9BC by Israelites. A fiction about a flood a long time ago. Myths taken from Mesopotamian flood myths which we know are far older.
We don't need to know about natural laws being different to know the Mesopotamian civilizations pre-date the Israelites in 9BC.

All scholarship recognizes the Noah story is religious synchretism using older flood myths. I do not care what an internet troll believes. I only care about evidence. The evidence is clear.




Ahh, good, thank you for conceding my point. When you come back with no evidence, no argument to your point but rather a mundane "no". You clearly cannot defend your position. Why you just state your beliefs I don't know because I am not interested in your beliefs?

Now I will do what you cannot.
Nora Elisabeth Mary Boyce (2 August 1920 – 4 April 2006) was a British scholar of Iranian languages, and an authority on Zoroastrianism. Spent 1 year living among modern Zoroastrin members to establish what their original doctrines were. The concept of the "evil god/spirit" in opposition to the main god came from Persia. After the Persian invasion of Judea this version of the devil was slowly written into the OT. More religious synchretism.

"Zoroaster was thus the first to teach the doctrines of an individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, the future resurrection of the body, the general Last Judgment, and life everlasting for the reunited soul and body. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by Judaism, Christianity and Islam.[30]"

They were the first to talk about a world savior god as well and is likely where the Jews got the idea.




Yes those are the dates the Epic was written. However the Epic of Gilamesh is also a MYTH. No flood ever happened. It's a story about transformation and re-birth and helps people during times of starting over.
It's not supposed to be read like a DC comic book.


Scholarship always sources material. Usually the most original sources possible. If you disagree present an argument why the sources are wrong, with evidence to make you argument plausible. IF you cannot you have no argument. If you still insist your just a troll pushing crank.



God made many promises about this and that. A few match and the ones that don't you say "will still happen".
Not convincing. Not even really prophecies? Isaiah's prophecy was Babylon OR Persia (?). As if it's hard to imagine conquering nations nearby are coming to invade eventually during a time nations were invading all over the place?



There was no flood. There are myths about floods. Hundreds of them. Your book of myths has one of them.

The epic of Gilgamesh was post flood. There also were bad spirits in that day. Naturally there will be similarities with Scripture, that doesn't mean God borrowed their material.
Science does not know what nature was like in the past, your fail evidences that. You are in no position to call people cranks that do not share your baseless beliefs.

 

[dad]

No because things happened in the past similar to how they do now. If there was a period where aws were different there would be evidence. But first you would need evidence that certain laws could change, a reason why, a method, would it be possible, would it violate other laws like conservation of energy. Without evidence your supporting crank ideas and I'm really done signal boosting your crank.


First of all something requiring radioactive dating isn't a "loss" because it's been shown to be reliable. First you would have to show it's not reliable. 2nd I don't know if they radio date the oldest calendars or not.
As I stated before I was staying away from radioactive dating because you don't do actual real rational debates. You make up fake straw-man problems and insert them into the argument without evidence, proof, source or anything that would validate them and them whine and cry about how your crank is a valid reason.
The "loss" I take is having to debate more with a 9 year old.

The calendar issue is done. Mesopotamian myths are older than Israel's myths. So the evidence suggests the OT authors copied the Epic of Gilamesh.
That's it. I do not care about your fake flood or your crank beliefs.
As to an actual "loss", no I've beaten you with evidence on every single topic while all you have done is state beliefs without real evidence. Radio dating would be no different, I show good evidence, you say unsupported beliefs. Nah.



Zeus is a myth. So is Thor and his father Odin. Yahweh is another. If they are real provide evidence.


Oh than you lose. Again.

If there is no evidence than belief is unwarranted. You can believe in myths all day but until there is evidence they are just myths.

As usual you are still wrong, double-wrong. Because science has investigated supernatural phenomena many many times.


Remote viewing - Wikipedia
Ingo Swann - Wikipedia
Extrasensory perception - Wikipedia
you will find many links to studies, they always produce random chance results.

Clearly you do not know WIlliam Tiller who is a PhD studying supernatural energies
"
William A. Tiller is a professor emeritus of materials science and engineering at Stanford University.[1] He is also the author of Science and Human Transformation, a book about concepts such as subtle energies beyond the four fundamental forces, which he believes act in concert with human consciousness. Tiller appeared in the 2004 film What the Bleep Do We Know!?.[2]"
William A. Tiller - Wikipedia

Then look up studies on prayer - doesn't work. Yes a scientific study was done, many times.
Uneducated religion trolls tend to be unaware that many studies have been done on supernatural areas.
Lynn Mctaggart reports many of the bias results in her book The Field. Unfortunately she cooks data and many experiments re-done by other teams were unable to produce similar results. As I found out in an article fully debunking her picking and choosing of results on experiments with consciousness and random number generators.
And that Asian guy who talks to water and makes it all happy as seen in What the Bleep Do We Know, yeah that's been re-done many times, it's fake.
All those Law of Attraction people have never been able to demonstrate results yet the premise is you can change reality with your mind!? They can't hide behind a silent deity like religion. They claim consciousness directly changes reality and cannot make one single demonstration. Years ago this was a big thing after the Secret came out. All crank.

Science tries, problem is this stuff doesn't seem to be real.

If a different nature existed on earth, and then changed, we would not have evidence. It would not have been our nature that changed. The changes you envision have to do with the present nature changing.

 

[joelr]

The epic of Gilgamesh was post flood.

There was no flood except for in mythical tales from the Iron and Bronze age. As well as earlier times. Modern people don't believe myths as literal events any longer.They are metaphors to teach societies lessons.
Although with many stories of floods science has investigated. There was no global flood.

There also were bad spirits in that day.

Good luck proving that piece of conjecture.

Naturally there will be similarities with Scripture,

COMPARISON OF
Genesis AND GILGAMESH



-- ------- --- --------Genesis - ---------GILGAMESH

Extent of flood ---- Global ---- ---------- Global
Cause ------ Man's wickedness ------ ---------- Man's sins
Intended for whom?------ All mankind ------------------ One city & all mankind
Sender ------ Yahweh ------ -- - ------ - Assembly of "gods"
Name of hero ------ Noah -------- -- - - -- - - Utnapishtim
Hero's character ------ Righteous ------ ---------- Righteous
Means of announcemen------t Direct from God ---------- -- - - - - In a dream
Ordered to build boat?------ Yes ------ ---------- Yes
Did hero complain? ------Yes --------------- - Yes
Height of boat ------ Several stories (3) ------ -- ------ - - - Several stories (6)
Compartments inside?------- Many ------ - -- -- - - - - - Many
Doors ------ One ------ - - - - - - - - - - One
Windows ------ At least one ------ - - - - ------ At least one
Outside coating ------ Pitch ------ ---------- Pitch
Shape of boat ------ Rectangular ------ ---------- Square
Human passengers------ Family members only---------------- Family & few others
Other passengers ------ All species of animal ------ ------------- All species of animals
Means of flood ------ Ground water & heavy rain ------ ------------- Heavy rain
Duration of flood ------Long (40 days & nights plus) ------------------- Short (6 days & nights)
Test to find land ------ Release of birds ------ ------------- Release of birds
Types of birds ------ Raven & three doves ------ ----------------- Dove, swallow, raven
Ark landing spot Mountain -------- Mt. Ararat Mountain -- ----- ----------- Mt. Nisir


Noah's flood
Andrew George submits that the Genesis flood narrative matches that in Gilgamesh so closely that "few doubt" that it derives from a Mesopotamian account.[41] What is particularly noticeable is the way the Genesis flood story follows the Gilgamesh flood tale "point by point and in the same order", even when the story permits other alternatives.[42] In a 2001 Torah commentary released on behalf of the Conservative Movement of Judaism, rabbinic scholar Robert Wexler stated: "The most likely assumption we can make is that both Genesis and Gilgamesh drew their material from a common tradition about the flood that existed in Mesopotamia. These stories then diverged in the retelling."[43] Ziusudra, Utnapishtim and Noah are the respective heroes of the Sumerian, Akkadian and biblical flood legends of the ancient Near East.
Epic of Gilgamesh - Wikipedia

that doesn't mean God borrowed their material.

There is no god? You haven't proven any god? The Israelites borrowed Mesopotamin myths which were thousands of years older.

Science does not know what nature was like in the past, your fail evidences that. You are in no position to call people cranks that do not share your baseless beliefs.

You present crank because you have no evidence. Name one law which you believe was different in the recent past (Iron age)

 

[joelr]

If a different nature existed on earth, and then changed, we would not have evidence. It would not have been our nature that changed. The changes you envision have to do with the present nature changing.

First of all a "different nature" isn't going to make the Israelite myths, which are relatively new, to suddenly pre-date Mesopotamian myths. It's not going to show the stories the Israelites made up (borrowing heavily from older established myths in Egypt and so on) were nothing more than myths, same as the hundreds of other cultures.
Once they decided who their particular "god above all gods" was going to be that doesn't mean that this myth was any more real then any other, or this new entry into the "highest god ever" myth- Yahweh -was finally the one who actually did start it all.
These religions that went along with new cultures made sense and were really important to surviving the harsh conditions, unfairness of life, conquering nations all around, slavery, death and sickness everywhere. But this myth is no different than Zeus or Lord Krishna.


Also changes in natural laws require reason. Many natural laws are balancing nature in ways you may not understand. Change one things and life, gravity, star formation and so on may not be able to happen. Depends on the law. Could violate the conservation of energy, could violate special relativity, who knows?
Going past that, different laws in the past could have left clues behind. What laws do you believe were different in the past?
It will NEVER rescue your odd attempts to make old myths any more real but what law do you imagine could have been different?

 

[dad]

There was no flood except for in mythical tales from the Iron and Bronze age. As well as earlier times. Modern people don't believe myths as literal events any longer.They are metaphors to teach societies lessons.
Although with many stories of floods science has investigated. There was no global flood.



Good luck proving that piece of conjecture.



COMPARISON OF
Genesis AND GILGAMESH



-- ------- --- --------Genesis - ---------GILGAMESH

Extent of flood ---- Global ---- ---------- Global
Cause ------ Man's wickedness ------ ---------- Man's sins
Intended for whom?------ All mankind ------------------ One city & all mankind
Sender ------ Yahweh ------ -- - ------ - Assembly of "gods"
Name of hero ------ Noah -------- -- - - -- - - Utnapishtim
Hero's character ------ Righteous ------ ---------- Righteous
Means of announcemen------t Direct from God ---------- -- - - - - In a dream
Ordered to build boat?------ Yes ------ ---------- Yes
Did hero complain? ------Yes --------------- - Yes
Height of boat ------ Several stories (3) ------ -- ------ - - - Several stories (6)
Compartments inside?------- Many ------ - -- -- - - - - - Many
Doors ------ One ------ - - - - - - - - - - One
Windows ------ At least one ------ - - - - ------ At least one
Outside coating ------ Pitch ------ ---------- Pitch
Shape of boat ------ Rectangular ------ ---------- Square
Human passengers------ Family members only---------------- Family & few others
Other passengers ------ All species of animal ------ ------------- All species of animals
Means of flood ------ Ground water & heavy rain ------ ------------- Heavy rain
Duration of flood ------Long (40 days & nights plus) ------------------- Short (6 days & nights)
Test to find land ------ Release of birds ------ ------------- Release of birds
Types of birds ------ Raven & three doves ------ ----------------- Dove, swallow, raven
Ark landing spot Mountain -------- Mt. Ararat Mountain -- ----- ----------- Mt. Nisir


There is no god? You haven't proven any god? The Israelites borrowed Mesopotamin myths which were thousands of years older.




You present crank because you have no evidence. Name one law which you believe was different in the recent past (Iron age)

We have Scripture to measure accuracy of pagan records.Your claim there was no flood is religion.

 

[dad]

First of all a "different nature" isn't going to make the Israelite myths, which are relatively new, to suddenly pre-date Mesopotamian myths.

It does make your dates wrong. Add to that the fact that we do not need a written record in order to have had a record.

It's not going to show the stories the Israelites made up (borrowing heavily from older established myths in Egypt and so on) were nothing more than myths, same as the hundreds of other cultures.

They copied from us, regardless of when written records started.

Once they decided who their particular "god above all gods" was going to be that doesn't mean that this myth was any more real then any other, or this new entry into the "highest god ever" myth- Yahweh -was finally the one who actually did start it all.

We knew that long before any writing existed on earth.

These religions that went along with new cultures made sense and were really important to surviving the harsh conditions, unfairness of life, conquering nations all around, slavery, death and sickness everywhere. But this myth is no different than Zeus or Lord Krishna.

Pipe dream history.

Also changes in natural laws require reason.

Creation requires reason. Any nature God sets up in a particular time requites His reason.

Many natural laws are balancing nature in ways you may not understand. Change one things and life, gravity, star formation and so on may not be able to happen. Depends on the law. Could violate the conservation of energy, could violate special relativity, who knows?

Whatever our current laws do or do not do, they never did it in the different past. It was not a change IN our nature.

Going past that, different laws in the past could have left clues behind. What laws do you believe were different in the past?

What do you believe was the same?

It will NEVER rescue your odd attempts to make old myths any more real but what law do you imagine could have been different?

It already put you in checkmate.