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Claims vs. Beliefs

Pudding

Well-Known Member
All that is one big fat straw man. I don't want anyone to join my religion, pay membership fees, or obey my religious leader.
Does anyone here heard what she says?

She says she don't want anyone to join her religion, pay membership fees, or obey her religious leader.

So everyone here please do her a favor, please make sure you don't join her religion, please make sure you don't pay membership fees to her religion, please make sure you don't obey her religious leader. She don't want all of that, thanks for the cooperation.

There are no membership fees in my religion.
Okay, after doing some research, i found out that some source says that menber's donation to your religion is voluntary. Members can voluntarily donate to (1) The Bahá’í Funds, or (2) Ḥuqúqu'lláh.

One of the link i provide although say it's voluntary, but it also says that it is a spiritual obligation (kind of a duty) for members to pay Ḥuqúqu'lláh to the religion, not sure is it true.

Added together with what you says in op "we are each accountable to God for our own beliefs on Judgment Day" as kind of an implicit threat statement.

And now you say that there are no membership fees in your religion.

So, it's actually quite confusing whether or not there's membership fees in your religion.

Link:
The Bahá’í Funds
Ḥuqúqu'lláh
Ḥuqúqu'lláh (Arabic: ﺣﻘﻮﻕ ﺍﻟﻠﻪ, "Right of God") is a voluntary wealth tax paid by adherents of the Baháʼí Faith to support the work of the religion. Individuals following the practice calculate 19% of their discretionary income (after-tax income minus essential expenses) and send it to the head of the religion, which since 1963 has been the Universal House of Justice.

The payment of Ḥuqúqu'lláh is based on the calculation of the value of the individual's possessions, which includes one's merchandise, property and income, after all necessary expenses have been paid. If a person has possessions or wealth in excess of what is necessary equal in value to at least nineteen mithqáls of gold (2.2246 ounces or 69 grams) it is a spiritual obligation to pay nineteen percent of the total amount, once only, as Ḥuqúqu'lláh. Thereafter, whenever an individual acquires more possessions or wealth from income by the amount of at least nineteen mithqáls of gold, one is to pay nineteen percent of this increase, and so on for each further increase.

There is nothing waiting for anyone on judgment day because they did not join my religion.
If there is nothing awaits anyone on judgement day if they didn't join your religion, then what do you mean when you say in your op that "we are each accountable to God for our own beliefs on Judgment Day"? What is the purpose and meaning of your implicit threat statement?

I have no burden of proof because I am not trying to prove anything to anyone.
You have burden of proof, if you want non-members to take your op's statements (regarding the existence of God and your religion's leader was sent by God) seriously as in believe your statements are facts.

If you don't want non-members to believe your statements are facts. Sure, then you don't have the burden of proof.
 
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Pudding

Well-Known Member
Baha'is do seek to make converts but not by force. They "teach" the word, then if a person likes what they hear, they are supposed to seek more. Here's a few quotes about "teaching" the Baha'i Faith.
"Whosoever ariseth to aid our Cause, God will render him victorious over ten times ten thousand souls, and, should he wax in his love for Me, him will We cause to triumph over all that is in the heaven and all that is on earth."

(Bahá’u’lláh: cited by Shoghi Effendi in, Messages to the Bahá’í World, p. 101)
"In the Aqdas Bahá’u’lláh considers teaching as a spiritual obligation imposed upon every devoted believer and servant of His Faith. Should the friends become fully conscious of this duty and arise to do their share, this Cause will soon permeate every home throughout the world and the Kingdom of God will be established."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer: Bahá’í News, No. 85, p. 8, July 1934)
"The sanctified souls should ponder and meditate in their hearts regarding the methods of teaching. From the texts of the wondrous, heavenly Scriptures they should memorize phrases and passages bearing on various instances, so that in the course of their speech they may recite divine verses whenever the occasion demandeth it, inasmuch as these holy verses are the most potent elixir, the greatest and mightiest talisman. So potent is their influence that the hearer will have no cause for vacillation…."

(Bahá’u’lláh: Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 200)

"Shoghi Effendi has seen, through the experience of the international teachers that keep him informed regarding their activities, that intensive work is ultimately of a more lasting nature. It has proven to be far better that a teacher should spend a month or two in one center and wait until a group is formed, than to cover a large area and not stay enough in a center to help the progress of those interested to the stage that they would feel themselves able to embrace the Cause and identify themselves with it."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, May 30, 1932: Bahá’í News, No. 67, October 1932, pp. 4-5)
"The more one observes the conditions of the world and the terrible problems confronting humanity, the more deeply one realizes that the only remedy is that which Bahá’u’lláh has brought, and yet, alas, the masses of the people seem to not yet be aware that the way out of our problems can only be a divine way, given by something far greater than human understanding! However, many souls are seriously thinking and seeking, and the Bahá’ís must try to bring the knowledge of the teachings to all, so that those prepared to accept may not be denied the Message!"

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer: Ibid., p. 72)
"The responsibility of the Bahá’ís to teach the Faith is very great. The contraction of the world and the onward rush of events require us to seize every chance open to us to touch the hearts and minds of our fellow-men. The Message of Bahá’u’lláh is God's guidance for mankind to overcome the difficulties of this age of transition and move forward into the next stage of its evolution, and human beings have the right to hear it. Those who accept it incur the duty of passing it on to their fellow-men. The slowness of the response of the world has caused and is causing great suffering; hence the historical pressure upon Bahá’ís to exert every effort to teach the Faith for the sake of their fellow-men. They should teach with enthusiasm, conviction, wisdom and courtesy, but without pressing their hearer, bearing in mind the words of Bahá’u’lláh 'Beware lest ye contend with any one, nay, strive to make him aware of the truth with kindly manner and most convincing exhortation. If your hearer respond, he will have responded to his own behoof, and if not, turn ye away from him, and set your face towards God's sacred Court, the seat of resplendent holiness.' (Gleanings CXXVIII)"

(Extract from "Statement of the Universal House of Justice Regarding Teaching the Faith", op. cit. No. 2003)​
And on "Mass Teaching"...
The Universal House of Justice wrote the following regarding the importance of teaching on a mass scale in a 1964 message:

"When the masses of mankind are awakened and enter the Faith of God, a new process is set in motion and the growth of a new civilization begins. Witness the emergence of Christianity and of Islam. These masses are the rank and file, steeped in traditions of their own, but receptive to the new Word of God, by which, when they truly respond to it, they become so influenced as to transform those who come in contact with them.[1]

In a 1967 letter the Universal House of Justice wrote:

"The paramount goal of the teaching work at the present time is to carry the message of Bahá’u’lláh to every stratum of human society and every walk of life. An eager response to the teachings will often be found in the most unexpected quarters, and any such response should be quickly followed up, for success in a fertile area awakens a response in those who were at first uninterested."[2]

While the concept of mass teaching is explicitly focused on the expansion and growth of the Bahá’í community the Universal House of Justice also noted the following in a 1966 letter to National Spiritual Assemblies engaged in mass teaching:

"While this vital teaching work is progressing each National Assembly must ever bear in mind that expansion and consolidation are inseparable processes that must go hand in hand. The interdependence of these processes is best elucidated in the following passage from the writings of the beloved Guardian: “Every outward thrust into new fields, every multiplication of Bahá’í institutions, must be paralleled by a deeper thrust of the roots which sustain the spiritual life of the community and ensure its sound development. From this vital, this ever-present need attention must, at no time, be diverted; nor must it be, under any circumstances, neglected, or subordinated to the no less vital and urgent task of ensuring the outer expansion of Bahá’í administrative institutions. That this community … may maintain a proper balance between these two essential aspects of its development … is the ardent hope of my heart.” To ensure that the spiritual life of the individual believer is continuously enriched, that local communities are becoming increasingly conscious of their collective duties, and that the institutions of an evolving administration are operating efficiently, is, therefore, as important as expanding into new fields and bringing in the multitudes under the shadow of the Cause."[3]

So just like playing word games with "Claims" vs "Beliefs", the game can also be played with "teaching" and "proselytizing", "converts" and "finding those souls that are ready to join (what they call) the cause of God" So, technically, I guess a Baha'i could say they don't "seek" converts, but they do.
The op does use implicit threat in her post. Maybe it can be says that she seek to make converts by force by using implicit threat?

Here it is.
we are each accountable to God for our own beliefs on Judgment Day.
 
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Can you explain why life looks exactly like we would expect if it was evolved?
You’d have to explain what you mean? Life looks like Genesis explains it, God made everything to reproduce after its own kind, apple seed produces apple trees, birds reproduce and their offspring are birds, human beings produce children after themselves. That’s what I see.
 

Pudding

Well-Known Member
Claims must be accompanied with the gist of reasonable arguments there in the scripture, else the scripture is wrong/corrupted and or the claimant is wrong, I understand. Right?

Regards
No they don't. A claim is simply an assertion that something is the case. No evidence of any kind is required to make the claim.
It depends. On some scenarios, evidence is required to make the claim otherwise one could get into lawsuit and lose money or go to jail.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
It’s logical, if you’re claiming all of creation, the world, universe and everything in it just happened by abiogenesis

It's hilarious how often religious apologists use known logical fallacies in the very post they lay claim to using logic?

1. I made no claim about creation, since I don't believe everything as created - hence a straw man fallacy.
2. I have made no claims about abiogenesis - hence this is again a straw man fallacy.
3. Abiogenesis is about the origins of organic life, not the universe - hence this is a false equivalence fallacy.

So much for "it's logical"....

then evolution to what we have today then you cannot manipulate or have human intervention to accurately experiment or test your theory.

My theory? I have no theory, so I have no idea what you're talking about. If you mean the scientific theory of evolution there are in fact literally limitless tests that have been conducted to help validate every aspect of it. Continuous testing is a prerequisite of any established scientific theory, just look up the definition of the term.

A scientific theory is an explanation of an aspect of the natural world and universe that has been repeatedly tested and corroborated in accordance with the scientific method, using accepted protocols of observation, measurement, and evaluation of results. Where possible, theories are tested under controlled conditions in an experiment. In circumstances not amenable to experimental testing, theories are evaluated through principles of abductive reasoning. Established scientific theories have withstood rigorous scrutiny and embody scientific knowledge.
 
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it's hilarious how often religious apologists use known logical fallacies in the very post they lay claim to using logic?

1. I made no claim about creation, since I don't believe everything as created - hence a straw man fallacy.
2. I have made no claims about abiogenesis - hence this is again a straw man fallacy.
3. Abiogenesis is about the origins of organic life, not the universe - hence this is a false equivalence fallacy.

So much for "it's logical"....



My theory? I have no theory, so i have no idea what you're talking about. If you mean the scientific theory of evolution there are in fact literally limitless tests that have been conducted to help validate every aspect of it. Continuous testing is a prerequisite of any established scientific theory, just look up the definition of the term.

A scientific theory is an explanation of an aspect of the natural world and universe that has been repeatedly tested and corroborated in accordance with the scientific method, using accepted protocols of observation, measurement, and evaluation of results. Where possible, theories are tested under controlled conditions in an experiment. In circumstances not amenable to experimental testing, theories are evaluated through principles of abductive reasoning. Established scientific theories have withstood rigorous scrutiny and embody scientific knowledge.
So all you know is the definition of scientific theory, bravo! Well done
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You’d have to explain what you mean? Life looks like Genesis explains it, God made everything to reproduce after its own kind, apple seed produces apple trees, birds reproduce and their offspring are birds, human beings produce children after themselves. That’s what I see.
No, it does not. You are only looking skin deep, if even that. When one looks at life one can see that all life is related to each other. And you used a nonsense term.

No creationist has ever properly defined "kind". What is a "kind"? If you have to populations of animals what characteristics tell you if they are the same "kind" or not?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Like what problems have they solved, what has been produced?
Wait a second. So you made all of those bogus claims without any idea at all what you were talking about?

I can give you problem after problem that they solved, but first you have to admit how you screwed up big time by making claims that you could not support. And you should have known better. You just broke the Ninth Commandment on purpose.
 
No creationist has ever properly defined "kind". What is a "kind"? If you have to populations of animals what characteristics tell you if they are the same "kind" or not?
The Hebrew transliteration is (miyn) translated “kind” in English which means species. So I use the biblical translation “kind”.
 
Wait a second. So you made all of those bogus claims without any idea at all what you were talking about?

I can give you problem after problem that they solved, but first you have to admit how you screwed up big time by making claims that you could not support. And you should have known better. You just broke the Ninth Commandment on purpose.
You said problems have been solved now if you don’t want to answer then that’s fine with me. Not sure what you’re talking about then.
 
Abiogenesis would have taken millions of years so the entire process cannot be repeated in the laboratory. But what can be repeated are various possible steps. What can be done is to solve problems in abiogenesis. So far they have solved quite a few of the problems. In fact some of the problems have more than one solution.
I asked what you mean so explain or don’t
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The Hebrew transliteration is (miyn) translated “kind” in English which means species. So I use the biblical translation “kind”.
I am doing you a favor here, no, kind does not mean "species" and if it did we would know that the Genesis myth is wrong because we have observed new species evolve in real time.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
You’d have to explain what you mean? Life looks like Genesis explains it,
The genesis creation myth has no explanatory powers, at its heart is an appeal to mystery, and of course it is entirely at odds with the scientific fact of evolution and shared ancestry, and gets even the most basic chronological fact of the formation of the universe wrong.
 
I am doing you a favor here, no, kind does not mean "species" and if it did we would know that the Genesis myth is wrong because we have observed new species evolve in real time.
You”ll have to get yourself a concordance and check for yourself then
8D13EB23-D4C4-4B9E-8447-DCBE07A94C4E.jpeg
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You said problems have been solved now if you don’t want to answer then that’s fine with me. Not sure what you’re talking about then.
I know You stated something as being a fact when you had no clue about whether it was a fact or not. That is breaking the Ninth Commandment. It was bearing false witness about your neighbor.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You”ll have to get yourself a concordance and check for yourself then
No, it is your claim. I was doing you a favor since if you put it at "species" we know that the story is a myth.

You in effect already admitted that you were wrong, even if you did not understand how.
 
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