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Featured Christmas birthdate of Jesus Pagan.......

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Riders, Oct 23, 2019.

  1. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    I know its a bit early for this but what is the real birth date of Jesus? Is the December 25th the birthday of other Pagan Gods and Godesses? What symbols in Jesus birth were Pagan? The stars, the fish , wise men Virgin birth etc........?????????

    Heres a video
     
  2. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Exactly. We usually have to wait until December before being treated with such nonsense.
     
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  3. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    Here's a good film. It has a lot of the history of Christmas and neither condemns Christmas strictly as Pagan but does define the Pagan roots and the history of Christmas and of Americans and Christmas.

     
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  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Jesus' birthdate is not recorded in scripture because the Jews did not originally celebrate birthdays....only pagans did that and they were warned not to adopt those pagan practices. Birthdays were tied up with astrology, horoscopes and spiritism, something that God forbade. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

    In an effort to gain pagan converts the Roman Catholic clergy in the fourth century after Christ's death, took in this pagan Saturnalia on December 25 and sponsored it as the “mass of Christ” or “Christ-mass.” Christmas, is therefore nothing more than a carbon copy of the pagan Saturnalia under a new name. This is generally admitted by historical and religious scholars. Saturnalia was “the feast of Saturn", which was a winter festival that lasted a week beginning on the twenty-fifth day of December, and was celebrated with dancing, the exchanging of gifts, and the burning of candles. The Saturnalia was later taken over by the Christians as their Christmas, and given a new significance.

    Roman Emperor Constantine was an astute politician, of whom it was said that for every Christian church, he built a temple for Zeus, who was his principle deity all his life. The reason why he declared Roman Catholicism to be the state religion in the first place was because he wanted to consolidate his religiously divided empire. By providing a fusion of the two, he created a "universal" (Catholic) religion in a "one size fits all" arrangement with enough components of each to satisfy everyone. Northern hemisphere customs crept in over time and made Christmas what it is to this day.

    Easter too fits this description. Easter was a fertility goddess whose emblems were rabbits and eggs.
    Christendom is full of things that don't belong but because the people like them they justified keeping them. But if you read 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 you will see that it does not sit well with God to try to combine true worship with false worship.
     
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  5. lukethethird

    lukethethird Well-Known Member

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    Theories abound, but that's religion for ya.
     
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  6. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    So are Atheists celebrating Christ's mass, when they celebrate Christmas, or are "Christians" celebrating a pagan holiday that was adopted by the 4th century "Christians"?
     
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  7. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    I think I heard once that September rather than December would have been a more valid birth date for Jesus if he existed.
     
  8. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    The pagan holidays came first so I'll leave it to your judgement to decide who is copying who.

    And atheist dont have a mid winter (or any holiday). Those pagan festivals were/are usually in the name of a deity even if that deity is a tree, an animal, the earth ot something intangible like the abrahamic god.

    On a personal basis our family has observed several mid winter celebrations over the years. The kids have settled on saturnalia, it lasts longer, they get presents everyday and on the last day one of them is chosen to be king/queen queen for the day.
     
  9. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    So Atheists are celebrating birthdays and honorary customs of gods...
     
  10. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    No it isn't. There are a number of different explanations that are proposed: "appropriating" Saturnalia or Sol Invictus, the calculation thesis: dating 9 months from the annunciation on 25 March, and attaching to the Solstice because it was the solstice and thus auspicious (not to 'trick' Pagans, but the date was chosen for the same reasons countless cultures celebrate solstices).

    Other than Saturnalia was a week long festival (and also moved around the calendar at times, Christmas on 25th Dec seems to have emerged by early 4th C at the latest when Christians were still being persecuted by Rome due to differentiating themselves from Pagans.

    There is no consensus on the issue though.

    Easter was dated from Passover.

    Also the name of the goddess only works in English/German as Easter is usually named from Pascha, from the Hebrew Pesach. Also there is scholarly debate about regarding whether or not Eostre even existed in popular culture or was largely created by the Venerable Bede.

    Seeing as Easter wasn't invented in Germanic Northern Europe it makes little sense as an origin story

    He didn't make it the state religion though, that didn't happen until Theodosius half a century and several emperors later (including a one pagan).

    The Christian population was 7-10%, and pagans dominated the ranks of the elite and the military. If anything, it was risky and politically disadvantageous.
     
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  11. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Hey, even an atheist likes a good party
     
  12. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    A child protection worker goes to a party where the highlight of the party is the abuse of a child. What do you call that worker? A HYPOCRITE.
    "We have no belief in gods, but we don't mind participating in parties held in their honor. Meanwhile, we enjoy bashing the ignorant irrational people who worship them." Ha Ha.
    Hypocrisy is not bad at all. LOL
     
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  13. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Actually chirstmas is in honour of jcs anonymous birthday, not gods, i thought as a follower of Christ you would know that

    Prior to that most mid winter celebrations were in honour of the end of shorter days, the transition to longer and longer days, the greening of nature, the start of planting to survive the next winter

    But if you want to delusion yourself to massage your ego because you know zilch about mid winter festivals just so you can call name then then sure, its gods party? Have a good one christian

    And can i ask why you are so fascinated by child abuse?
     
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  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    There is consensus scripturally though....just one clear directive.

    2 Corinthians 6:14-18....
    "14 Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.

    The directive is clear....there can be no mingling....no fusion between the worship God abhors and his true worship.

    How many drops of poison would you add to a glass of water before you consider it contaminated?

    If we want to be acceptable as God's "sons and daughters" then we are commanded to remove ourselves from corrupted worship, not even touching something that is spiritually "unclean" from God's standpoint, not ours. Justifying something because you like it, does not make it all right with the God who abhors false worship.

    The name "Easter" is not in the Bible for a very good reason.....it was the name of the fertility goddess whose festival was 'adopted' by the church and substituted for the memorial that Christians were commanded to hold on the date of the anniversary of Christ's death, not as an excuse to have themselves a holiday. They hardly changed a thing.....they are there for all to see. They did not even bother to change the name. The fertility symbols today are made of chocolate......does that somehow make them acceptable to God?

    Regardless of what opinions are accepted.....Easter is not something a true Christian should have anything to do with. It is clearly not of Christian or Biblical origin. False worship is false worship. (Exodus 20:3)
     
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  15. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    :nomouth: Ain't nutting like a party ya'll. :laughing:
     
  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Just about all the symbols concerning his birth are pagan.

    The magi were Babylonian astrologers (practicers of what God's law condemned) who saw the star signifying to them, the birth of a new "King of the Jews". They were used as dupes to alert a wicked and jealous King Herod who took measures to make sure that no one except his own sons would succeed him. He had all the infants two years of age and under put to death. God does not indicate that the magi had any evil intentions, so he sent them home via another way. It was simply their custom to give gifts to royal children. The devil took advantage of that.

    The star that led them to Herod was therefore not sent by God, but by his adversary in an attempt to kill Jesus before he even had a chance to grow up. The magi were not "wise men" in God's eyes but they were to their pagan nation. Magi is where we get the word "magic" and "magician"....magic was forbidden among God's people, as was sorcery. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

    The gifts they brought were "gold, frankincense and myrrh"...three gifts, but nowhere does it say that there were 'three wise men'.....it doesn't say how many there were.

    The fact that they brought gifts to the "young child" at his house, (Matthew 2:11) rather than to the stable, proves that Jesus was not a newborn by the time they arrived. He was presented at the temple at 8 days of age and his parents offered the gift of the poor...two turtle doves. If they had the gold from the magi, they would not have made such a small offering.

    What about the fish?
    The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible says that 'fish frequently appear in ancient pagan symbolism, often apart from water scenes. “In such cases, it would seem to have symbolic significance, possibly to represent deity, power, fecundity, (fertility) etc.”

    It also notes that certain Jews adopted use of the fish symbol from pagan religious customs, adding: “It is probable that the considerations mentioned [in this regard] account in part for the appearance of the fish in the art of the oldest Christian catacombs. How early the Greek word for ‘fish’ (ichthýs) came to be interpreted as a cipher for ‘Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior’ . . . we do not know; but once this identification was made, the fish became a standard Christian symbol.”

    [​IMG]

    Ever wondered where the Pope's headgear originated?

    The cross is also a pagan symbol. It too originated in Babylon with Nimrod who was known in Jewish Bible times as Bacchus or Tammuz.

    Doubtless, the cross was sacred as a symbol among the apostate Jewish women who polluted God’s temple by sitting there and "weeping over the god Tammuz". (Ezekiel 8:13-14) These women were, in effect, bewailing the death of the mighty hunter Nimrod, the founder of Babylon.
    Whereas those Jewish women were indirectly worshiping the sun-god in the same way that Babylonian women did, the prophet Ezekiel actually saw men performing direct worship of the sun at Solomon’s temple in Jerusalem. (Ezekiel 8:16)


    The Virgin birth is the only Biblically supported teaching. Isaiah foretold that a "maiden" (a young virgin) would give birth to the savior. (Isaiah 7:14) The Gospels confirm that Mary was unmarried when she received notification from the Angel Gabriel that she would conceive a child by holy spirit, who would be the savior of his people. It confirms that Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus, because Joseph refrained from having intercourse with his wife until after she had given birth to her son. (Matthew 1:24-25) They had other children.

    The deeper you go...the more corruption you find....
     
  17. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    Yeah the Bible wasn't written in Old English or German :D

    No, the holiday Pascha was much later called Easter in a couple of languages for reasons we can't really be sure about.

    There is also only 1 source that links Easter/Eostre and in that Eostre is the month, not the specific holy day. It's not even certain that Bede was correct, he might well have made it up to explain something he was unsure about.

    You seem to think Easter/Pascha developed in Western Europe rather than the ancient Mediterranean.

    Why would people in the ancient Med be copying the rituals of a (perhaps fictitious) Old English goddess?

    You are confusing 2 things (and getting both wrong at the same time)

    1. Why holidays are celebrated on specific dates
    2. What specific festivities/rituals have developed over the years
     
  18. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    For this atheist, christimass is a good excuse to decorate the house with twinkling lights and shiny crystal balls and invite family and friends over for a pretty disgustingly decadent and themed party meal with faaaar too much alcohol, followed by a nice game of family texas hold'em poker where I take all their money.

    The kids love it too.

    In this atheist's opinion - BEST time of the year.
     
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  19. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    No.

    They are just enjoying a themed party which is a cultural tradition.
     
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  20. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    There's nothing hypocritical about enjoying a cultural tradition in the form of a themed party.
    There's no "honoring deities" going on in our house.

    The only hypocrites in this holiday, are people like you who DO "honor the deity" while it is extremely well known that christmass isn't a christian holiday at all, but a pagan holiday in Thor's/Odin's honor (among others - it's really about the winter solstice) which christianity merely hijacked and pretended that it had something to do with Jesus.

    Christianity is a mishmash of pagan traditions poured into an abrahamic religion.
     
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