Christians: They were banned!

[Endless]

And Church teaching is based off of an ancient book. So essentially, you do base you morals soley on an ancient book.

The church teaching is based not off an ancient book, but off the word of God which happened to be penned all those many years ago. So he essentially bases his morals soley on what God has said and that to me seems a pretty good thing to base them on.

How do these verses fit into what you believe Mister_T

1Th 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.

We are told to warn the unruly - you would deny this and say we are to do nothing?

Eze 3:18 "When I say to the wicked, 'You shall surely die,' and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand.

With the Bible teaching us what is sin and that the wicked will perish as a result of their sin, God tells us to warn them against what they are doing - to save their life. Yet God says if we see the sin and do not warn them, then we are held accountable for them perishing. So are you going to be held accountable Mister_T for doing nothing?

Tit 2:15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.

Paul writes this to Timothy, a young leader in a church.

Tit 3:10 As for a man who is factious, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him,
11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned.

After two warnings they are to have nothing to do with the person - disfellowship.

2Th 3:6 ¶ Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.
...2Th 3:14 If any one refuses to obey what we say in this letter, note that man, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed.
15 Do not look on him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

How do these Bible teachings fit in with what you believe? Since they are teaching disfellowship. Note they are not teaching disfellowship to someone who sins, but someone who refuses to obey God's commands even though they know it is God's word.

 

[w00t]

And how do you know the Bible is the Word of God? There is absolutely no evidence to suggest it is more than the word of the autors thinking they are writing down what comes out of God's mouth

 

[Mister_T]

I don't have the time or energy to be writing novels to 5 people at a time and this debate has gotten WAY off topic so I'll keep it short.

Sir, as you can see from the context, the issue there is HYPOCRITICAL judgement

Yes I know. What do you think I've been refering to your actions as.

It does not mean we are to never judge anything, ever

Do not Judge. Nothing more nothing less. Jesus does not say "Judge only sometimes" He says do not judge in that manner,PERIOD end of sentence......doesn't get any simpler than that.

As far as those passages you mentioned it would be nice if you would read the whole thing instead of picking out just one line.

21Jesus said to them, "I did one miracle, and you are all astonished. 22Yet, because Moses gave you circumcision (though actually it did not come from Moses, but from the patriarchs), you circumcise a child on the Sabbath. 23Now if a child can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing the whole man on the Sabbath? 24Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment."

Jesus was not refering to the church authority. He was refering to the people he was teaching at the feast of the tabernacle. He was telling them not to judge HIM by his apperance. Another case of taking something out of context and twisting it.

Here's another case of that.

1If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? 2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church![a] 5I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6But instead, one brother goes to law against another—and this in front of unbelievers!
7The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers.

Paul was talking about Believers filing lawsuits against one another. HE WAS NOT REFERING TO CHURCH AUTHORITY. But I suppose something so blatently obvious, goes against the "mainstream" way of reading and comprehension.

I can read what Paul say about homosexuals and Heaven. And if you actually READ my posts for once. Then you'd see that I NEVER said homosexuals go to Heaven.

If the Holy Spirit is pulling you, He should be pulling you away from condoning sin, especially sin as serious as homosexuality

Who are you to say how the Holy Spirit is to be pulling me?! That's pretty arrogant not to mention ignorant. My issue isn't with homosexuals for the last time. My issue is with YOUR treament of people. If somebody was treating you in the manner that you treat homosexuals, then I would be doing the same for you.

 

[Endless]

21Jesus said to them, "I did one miracle, and you are all astonished. 22Yet, because Moses gave you circumcision (though actually it did not come from Moses, but from the patriarchs), you circumcise a child on the Sabbath. 23Now if a child can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing the whole man on the Sabbath? 24Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment."

Jesus was not refering to the church authority. He was refering to the people he was teaching at the feast of the tabernacle. He was telling them not to judge HIM by his apperance. Another case of taking something out of context and twisting it.

You forgot then ending here - it's normally the most important part. Jesus is telling them to make a right judgement. So do you want to explain how they can make a right judgement without judging?

Paul was talking about Believers filing lawsuits against one another. HE WAS NOT REFERING TO CHURCH AUTHORITY. But I suppose something so blatently obvious, goes against the "mainstream" way of reading and comprehension.

It doesn't matter - there is still judging going on Mister_T isn't there? I thought you said that Jesus said we weren't to judge PEROID? No? So are you trying to say that there are different types of judgement - some are ok, others are not? Is this perhaps what Jesus was saying when he told the people to make a right judgement about him?

 

[Mister_T]

I thought we lost ya. Good to see ya back

The church teaching is based not off an ancient book, but off the word of God which happened to be penned all those many years ago. So he essentially bases his morals soley on what God has said and that to me seems a pretty good thing to base them on.

How do these verses fit into what you believe Mister_T

At this point in my life I can't say that I take the Bible as 100% accurate. There are many contradictions. Too many to discuss. I'm currently investigating them. Perhaps in the future I'll believe differently. All I can do now is learn and pray.

We are told to warn the unruly - you would deny this and say we are to do nothing?

No. But there is a right way and a wrong way to do things. dorcas3000 gave a good example of how to evangelize a person earlier in the thread. You shoud check it out.

So are you going to be held accountable Mister_T for doing nothing?

Read my earlier posts about evangelizing. I don't sit and do nothing. I just don't point my finger at them and say "your lifestyle is wrong and God thinks your an abomonation. But he'll forgive you" when that person is in a state of mind to where they don't believe they're doing anything wrong. You tell people something like that and their natural reaction is going to be giving you the finger. Anything you say after that becomes detestable. Like Ravi Zacharias says "There's no point in giving someone a rose to smell once you cut off their nose."

Paul writes this to Timothy, a young leader in a church

Paul is one of those things in question. And I don't follow Paul. I follow Jesus.

After two warnings they are to have nothing to do with the person - disfellowship.

So we just give up on that person and throw them to the wolves?! Like I said. There's a lot of the Bible that's in question.

How do these Bible teachings fit in with what you believe? Since they are teaching disfellowship. Note they are not teaching disfellowship to someone who sins, but someone who refuses to obey God's commands even though they know it is God's word.

Well I always try to look at thing from other people's perspective. Homosexuals are NOT like child molesters, cheaters, drug dealer/users, murders, etc. in the sense that they're not causing harm to people as long long as they're in a monogomous relationship. The only difference between them and a heterosexual couple is what their partner is packin' between their legs. That's the only thing that's different. And the only thing that make that wrong is because God "says" it's wrong. And the only evidence for God saying that's wrong is composed of ink and paper.

That's not going to be reasonable for a lot of people. And logically it isn't. There has to be visible evidence to back that up.

You and I know that God is beyond our logic. A person who hasn't made that connection with God doesn't. That's why I encourage them to pray about their concerns and ask God for guidance and for him to keep them on a straight path. If they really want to be humble and open their heart to God, then they'll do it. If not, you can't force them. And me preaching to them isn't going to anything but tick em' off. So I show love and compassion for them. Whatever they decide to with their spiritual journey is between them and God. If God wants to change them he will. Jesus hung out with sinners and showed them love and compassion when the world turned their backs on them. I'm doing the same. Whether I think their wrong or right, my job is to show the same love and compassion that Jesus showed everyone. Hell bound or Heaven bound.

Although the more I'm seeing of what organized religion is composed of, the easier I'm finding it to show love and compassion to those that they have been labled "hell bound"

 

[Mister_T]

It doesn't matter - there is still judging going on Mister_T isn't there? I thought you said that Jesus said we weren't to judge PEROID? No? So are you trying to say that there are different types of judgement - some are ok, others are not? Is this perhaps what Jesus was saying when he told the people to make a right judgement about him?

It does matter when people are twisting scripture around. Paul was refering LEGAL judging. Political judging. Like courts of Law that we have today.

Paul was not talking about making personal judments about people.

And regardless of what type of judgment you consider a lawsuit to be, the fact remains that the passage was twisted and he STILL was not refering church power.

You forgot then ending here - it's normally the most important part. Jesus is telling them to make a right judgement. So do you want to explain how they can make a right judgement without judging?

Again, in this passage, Jesus is NOT REFERING TO CHURCH AUTHORITY. The scripture was twisted.

It's impossible not to make judgments. People make judgments everyday. What to eat, what to wear, whether or not this dentist is reliable, etc. The type of Judgment Jesus makes it clear what type of judgement he was refering to in Matthew and it was the finger pointing kind. If people who claim the Bible is the infalliable word of God and there are no mistakes in the Bible, then there should be no problem accepting this passage for it's blatently clear message. But as we can see people are guilty of twisting scripture around.

 

[Mister_T]

Seriosly this time. I'm done. The only thing I have left to say is go read that post I sent to Adstar about the Romans nailiing Jesus to the cross. That says everything about what Jesus and his love was about. I'm done with this flame fest. Let somebody else take over. I've made my point.

Peace!

I'm out.

If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat: and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink."

 

[sojourner]

I think you're mistaken about a couple of things here:

you said,

That's exactly what you're asking the Church to do with gays....pretend like they're not in serious sin, even though God plainly tells us that they are.

This statement is so bogus. First, In what way is it so plain? Because it's written on the page "in black and white?" Legal contracts are written on the page in black and white, too. That doesn't mean that I know how to read the document properly. That's why I need a lawyer to read the contract for me and explain what it says.

During the time of scriptural writing, there was a whole class of people called "scribes." The scribes were the lawyers. They wrote and interpreted religious law. Why? Because normal Joes, like me and you, couldn't understand the intracacies inherent in the law. it wasn't as easy as "reading what's on the page." Today, we have exegetes and theologians to help us interpret what's written on the page.

To whom was the infamous I Cor. 6:9 passage written? under what circumstances? For what reasons? We have to remember that, when Paul wrote his letters, he didn't write them as scripture. They were made scripture later on. Paul wrote simple letters to specific congregations and specific individuals for specific reasons. In order to determine the context of what Paul wrote, we need to understand the circumstances under which Paul wrote. Additionally, since the Church has canonized the letters, imbuing them with an authority they were not originally meant to carry, it is very helpful to have exegetes and theologians explain the circumstances and the Church's take on them, since the letters have taken on this added dimension.

Second, you know as well as I that we all make comparisons and assign priority to scriptural passages. How many of us take seriously the Levitican passage that wearing clothing of mixed cloth is an abomination? The very few homosexual passages cannot be taken as seriously as the ones pertaining to God's grace. You don't like homosexuals because you find them distasteful. And then you find scriptural passages to back up your preconceptions, finding in them the authority to mistreat others and withhold hospitality.

I don't think it's nearly as simple and plain as you make it out to be.

You also said,

Homosexuals are, however, attempting for impose their moral values on my IN MY OWN CHURCH!

This, also, is faulty. It's not your Church. It's Christ's Church. The Church is the ecclesia, the gathered people, and each one of those people belongs to Christ. More than that, the Church is the Body of Christ.

Therefore, it's not your viewpoint that particularly matters, but Christ's. And...the Church (as a whole -- there is only one Body, you know -- all congregations are parts of the whole Body) "belongs" just as much to homosexual Christians as to heterosexual Christians, and their viewpoints matter just as much as yours! Likewise, the Church includes among her members saints and sinners, each of whom occupy an equal portion of the Church's space and mind.

I don't think you, nor I, nor anyone else has the authority or the privilege of disassociating ourselves from other members of the Body, or to say that they don't count, or that they don't really belong -- or that they shouldn't belong! Christ invites all unconditionally -- especially the sinners.

It's high time that we got over our individualism, our parochialism, our elitism, and our diviseiveness. Christ prayed that we all be one. And that includes homosexuals, hypocrites, liars, murderers, and politicians.

 

[Endless]

Sojourner,

Firstly you cannot deny that the Bible does teach homosexuality as a sin - both in the old testament and in the new testament.
Secondly you cannot deny that Jesus hated the sin but loved the sinner - there are numerous examples of this.
Thirdly you cannot deny the passages in the Bible where Jesus blasts the Pharisees and scribes pointing out their sin and clears the temple of sellers with a whip.
Fourthly you cannot deny that repentance of sin is taught in the Bible.
Fifthly you cannot deny the passages in the Bible that i previously put up that if a believer lives in unrepentant sin we are told to first of all warn them and second of all should they refuse to listen to isolate ourselves from them - in the hope that they will repent. How can they claim to love God while living unrepentant in something the Bible classifies as sin?

This being the case the church has made a right judgement - not a personal one based on appearances but one based on the word of God and the teaching given in it.
All this being the case you cannot deny Sojourner that if a Church uses the Bible as a whole (no matter if you think it is the word of God or not) that they are well within their right to disfellowship an unrepentant believer. They are also well within their right to open their arms to the believer should he repent of his sin and welcome him in again. All this is done in love - never with distaste as the Bible teaches.

So your own opinions make absolutely no difference since what i consider to be the word of God trumphs you and me every and any day of the week. It is the same for adulteres who continue to commit adultery unrepentant etc. There is no homophobia - we are just following what God has laid out for us - love the sinner but hate the sin.

 

[sojourner]

the Church has maintained that homosexuality is a sin, and obviously egregious sin cannot be tolerated in God's house.

Not true. Maybe your particular branch of Christianity has...but your little piece of the pie does not make up the whole pie. MrT and I are both part of the Church (as well as several thousand homosexuals...) and we say that it is not sin. Not so obviously egregious as you seem to think.

Sorry if it bothers you that God placed people in charge when He left...but He did.

And it ain't the laity. God left the apostles in charge -- the bishops -- the clergy. Are you a bishop, or clergy? If so, do you speak for all the rest of us?

Homosexuals are trying to barge into GOD'S home, and trying to force everyone to pretend like they're not steeped in sin that condemns them to Hell.

Barge into God's home? I thought you said it was your own church...your home.
At any rate, how can one "barge in" to a home that has been graciously opened to all who would come?

Unforunately, the fact is, the majority of male homosexuals and lesbians aren't monogamous, nor do they choose to be. That's a large reason why the spread and creation of STDs have skyrocketed since the start of the so-called "Sexual Revolution", along with which came the gay "rights" movement.

Funny...the greatest spread of AIDS and HIV appears to be among the heterosexual community of Africa these days...what are your sources for your claim?

the whole point of this thread is that you DO want to force us to worship with them. You want us to let them into any church, anywhere, any time, regardless of the church's moral view on homosexuality. That is wrong.

Do you hear yourself? "us/them." To God, there is no "us/them."
"You want us to let them into any church..." Who died and made you the gatekeeper any more than MrT?

If you take the context of the entire Bible into account, then you know that God views homosexuality as wrong and that those who practice it will not inherit God's kingdom.

If you take the entire context of the Bible into account, you will find very, very little dealing with homosexuality.

it is YOU who is causing division in the Church by attempting to go against obvious Christian and Biblical teaching that homosexaulity is sin and cannot be tolerated.

Again, obvious? How?
I thought all "sin" was forgiven through Christ. How can you say it cannot be tolerated?

Homosexuality is sin, whether you like it or not.

Homosexuality is not a sin, whether you like it or not.

 

[sojourner]

Sojourner,

Firstly you cannot deny that the Bible does teach homosexuality as a sin - both in the old testament and in the new testament.
Secondly you cannot deny that Jesus hated the sin but loved the sinner - there are numerous examples of this.
Thirdly you cannot deny the passages in the Bible where Jesus blasts the Pharisees and scribes pointing out their sin and clears the temple of sellers with a whip.
Fourthly you cannot deny that repentance of sin is taught in the Bible.
Fifthly you cannot deny the passages in the Bible that i previously put up that if a believer lives in unrepentant sin we are told to first of all warn them and second of all should they refuse to listen to isolate ourselves from them - in the hope that they will repent. How can they claim to love God while living unrepentant in something the Bible classifies as sin?

This being the case the church has made a right judgement - not a personal one based on appearances but one based on the word of God and the teaching given in it.
All this being the case you cannot deny Sojourner that if a Church uses the Bible as a whole (no matter if you think it is the word of God or not) that they are well within their right to disfellowship an unrepentant believer. They are also well within their right to open their arms to the believer should he repent of his sin and welcome him in again. All this is done in love - never with distaste as the Bible teaches.

So your own opinions make absolutely no difference since what i consider to be the word of God trumphs you and me every and any day of the week. It is the same for adulteres who continue to commit adultery unrepentant etc. There is no homophobia - we are just following what God has laid out for us - love the sinner but hate the sin.

1) Yes I can deny that the Bible teaches that homosexuality is a sin...and I do deny it!
2) I don't deny that...where did you read that I do deny it?
3) Jesus whipping the Pharisees is no excuse for us to browbeat fellow people. Jesus whipped and turned out the moneychangers, not because they were doing business in the Temple, but because they had placed salvation on the doing of certain works, and it was that fallacy that precipitated the commerce in the first place. This is not a good example for what you're trying to prove.
4) I never said that repentance wasn't taught in the Bible.
5) I don't believe homosexuality is a sin. Additionally, in what context was Paul writing here? Is it equally applicable to you in this case?

Whose church? Yours? I thought the Church belonged to Christ? Be careful when you talk about "the Church," because "the Church" is more encompassing than you suppose. "The Church" is in no way in consensus about this issue. "The Church" has not issued a definitive judgment here! Some branches, such as the one in which I have standing, have not said that homosexuality is a sin.

As a matter of fact, I think it's a grave miscarriage of God's intent for us to divide and turn away and distance ourselves.

Do you hear yourself? Again: "yours/mine." You're making distinctions here that do not exist! You disagree with me. So, you say that my thoughts on the matter are "opinion" and that yours trump mine, because, of course, they are in accord with "the word of God." How arrogant! How selfish!

How dare you do anything in the name of the Church, when there is no consensus in the matter? Do it on your own accord, if you feel you must, but don't drag the Church into it too!

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

Yes I know. What do you think I've been calling you.

Calling someone something doesn't make it true, sorry to break it to you.

Do not Judge. Nothing more nothing less. Jesus does not say "Judge only sometimes" He says do not judge in that manner,PERIOD end of sentence......doesn't get any simpler than that.

Because OBVIOUSLY this is the only verse in the Bible that deals with judging others, so it's the all-inclusive standard for every case.....oh, wait, no it isn't. Try taking all the verses in the Bible about this issue into account. Christians are to righteously judge and determine right or wrong, especially among other Christians.

As far as those passages you mentioned it would be nice if you would read the whole thing instead of picking out just one line.

I did...that's why I cited them .

21Jesus said to them, "I did one miracle, and you are all astonished. 22Yet, because Moses gave you circumcision (though actually it did not come from Moses, but from the patriarchs), you circumcise a child on the Sabbath. 23Now if a child can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing the whole man on the Sabbath? 24Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment."

Jesus was not refering to the church authority.

I never claimed he was. I was referring to the fact that Christians are commanded to make right judgement (which is what I have been saying for the last several posts.)

He was refering to the people he was teaching at the feast of the tabernacle. He was telling them not to judge HIM by his apperance. Another case of taking something out of context and twisting it.

As you're aware (I hope), Jesus' teachings frequently have universal application outside the immediate people he was talking to. Yes, He was teaching people at the feast of the tabernacle. However, the obvious teaching of the story is to make right judge,ent.

Here's another case of that.

1If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? 2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church![a] 5I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6But instead, one brother goes to law against another—and this in front of unbelievers!
7The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers.

Paul was talking about Believers filing lawsuits against one another. HE WAS NOT REFERING TO CHURCH AUTHORITY. But I suppose something so blatently obvious, goes against the "mainstream" way of reading and comprehension.

Citing this verse was not a reference to Church authority; it was a reference to your claim that Christians are never, ever to judge. These verse quite clearly show that Christians ARE definitely to judge...the passage explicitly states that the Church is to judge among believers. The Church has judged concerning homosexaulity...it is sin, it is not to be tolerated in the house of God.

I can read what Paul say about homosexuals and Heaven. And if you actually READ my posts for once. Then you'd see that I NEVER said homosexuals go to Heaven.

If you don't think they're going to heaven (which in Christian soteriology means you realize that they're going to Hell), then why would you support their lifestyle that continues to guarantee that they will never gain salvation?? That makes no sense.

Who are you to say how the Holy Spirit is to be pulling me?! That's pretty arrogant not to mention ignorant. My issue isn't with homosexuals for the last time. My issue is with YOUR treament of people. If somebody was treating you in the manner that you treat homosexuals, then I would be doing the same for you.

The Holy Spirit, as God who is totally holy and righteous and HATES (even though you don't like the word, He does) sin, will never, ever pull anyone towards the defense of sinful lifestyles. That's just plainly obvious based on the nature of God and logic.
As I've said, I treat homosexuals with all respect and civility. I simply won't support their attempt to legalize a union which God has called sinful and ungodly, or their attempt to try to force their moral views on people whose religion does not accept homosexuality IN THEIR OWN CHURCHES. Please, do me a favor....if I am found to be in serious sin, don't try to defend my right to sin, nor try to find some hidden Amendment in the Constitution that allows my sin, nor hold any "Nick-rights" rallies to try to get my sin legalized. That doesn't help me, it hurts me.

FerventGodSeeker

 

[Endless]

Firstly i never said 'my church' i merely said 'the church' - which as you correctly write is God's church.
Secondly if you deny that the Bible classifies homosexuality as sin then you will have a problem with what the Bible says here:

Le 18:22 'You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

I think that's pretty clear. Having sex with a man is an abomination.

Le 20:13 'If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

Again showing the seriousness of homosexuality.

Ro 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;

Pretty clear to me what is being said here. There are other verses and you know the story of Sodom - incidently from which we get the word Sodomite. Their sin was so great that God destroyed those cities.
Anyhow to anyone reading the word of God, it is abundantely clear that sex with another man is a sin and spoken against in the Bible as the church recognises.

Therefore there is accord as far as God is concerned - he has spoken and that is the end of the matter. If he says it is wrong then who am i to argue with him. It is not my opinion that trumphs yours - it is God's word that trumphs your opinion. I'm merely quoting what God says and teaches in the Bible. So i am hardly arogant or selfish when i am quoting what the Bible says am i?
I do nothing in the name of the church - i am not an ambassador of the church, but rather God's ambassador - i will do what he tells me, nothing more, nothing less. And he has spoken in the Bible abundantly clearly on this issue and i'm not going to stand infront of him and tell him he has got it all wrong - now that would be arogant.

BTW - i never said you denied anything Sojouner - i merely said that you cannot deny. Though you have choosen to deny that the Bible teaches sex with a man as a sin - but like i said, when you read the Bible it cannot be denied that this is what God is teaching.

Jesus whipping the moneylenders wasn't to do with them placing salvation on doing certain works - if you read the account it was because they were desecrating God's temple by selling in a Holy place where they should have been worshipping. That angered Jesus and hence the reason he cleared them all out.

"The Church" is in no way in consensus about this issue. "The Church" has not issued a definitive judgment here! Some branches, such as the one in which I have standing, have not said that homosexuality is a sin.

Well that is sad, for they are ignoring the word of God and what God has clearly written. For how could they stand up and contradict God by saying, well, we don't actually think homosexuality is a sin. Who are they to decide what is and what isn't a sin? God has already decided it - how could there possibly be anything to decide?

 

[Bishka]

Calling someone something doesn't make it true, sorry to break it to you.


Because OBVIOUSLY this is the only verse in the Bible that deals with judging others, so it's the all-inclusive standard for every case.....oh, wait, no it isn't. Try taking all the verses in the Bible about this issue into account. Christians are to righteously judge and determine right or wrong, especially among other Christians.

I did...that's why I cited them .



I never claimed he was. I was referring to the fact that Christians are commanded to make right judgement (which is what I have been saying for the last several posts.)

As you're aware (I hope), Jesus' teachings frequently have universal application outside the immediate people he was talking to. Yes, He was teaching people at the feast of the tabernacle. However, the obvious teaching of the story is to make right judge,ent.


Citing this verse was not a reference to Church authority; it was a reference to your claim that Christians are never, ever to judge. These verse quite clearly show that Christians ARE definitely to judge...the passage explicitly states that the Church is to judge among believers. The Church has judged concerning homosexaulity...it is sin, it is not to be tolerated in the house of God.



If you don't think they're going to heaven (which in Christian soteriology means you realize that they're going to Hell), then why would you support their lifestyle that continues to guarantee that they will never gain salvation?? That makes no sense.



The Holy Spirit, as God who is totally holy and righteous and HATES (even though you don't like the word, He does) sin, will never, ever pull anyone towards the defense of sinful lifestyles. That's just plainly obvious based on the nature of God and logic.
As I've said, I treat homosexuals with all respect and civility. I simply won't support their attempt to legalize a union which God has called sinful and ungodly, or their attempt to try to force their moral views on people whose religion does not accept homosexuality IN THEIR OWN CHURCHES. Please, do me a favor....if I am found to be in serious sin, don't try to defend my right to sin, nor try to find some hidden Amendment in the Constitution that allows my sin, nor hold any "Nick-rights" rallies to try to get my sin legalized. That doesn't help me, it hurts me.

FerventGodSeeker

You are more like LDS people then you know. We also believe in righteous judgement.

 

[sojourner]

Firstly i never said 'my church' i merely said 'the church' - which as you correctly write is God's church.
Secondly if you deny that the Bible classifies homosexuality as sin then you will have a problem with what the Bible says here:



I think that's pretty clear. Having sex with a man is an abomination.



Again showing the seriousness of homosexuality.



Pretty clear to me what is being said here. There are other verses and you know the story of Sodom - incidently from which we get the word Sodomite. Their sin was so great that God destroyed those cities.
Anyhow to anyone reading the word of God, it is abundantely clear that sex with another man is a sin and spoken against in the Bible as the church recognises.

Therefore there is accord as far as God is concerned - he has spoken and that is the end of the matter. If he says it is wrong then who am i to argue with him. It is not my opinion that trumphs yours - it is God's word that trumphs your opinion. I'm merely quoting what God says and teaches in the Bible. So i am hardly arogant or selfish when i am quoting what the Bible says am i?
I do nothing in the name of the church - i am not an ambassador of the church, but rather God's ambassador - i will do what he tells me, nothing more, nothing less. And he has spoken in the Bible abundantly clearly on this issue and i'm not going to stand infront of him and tell him he has got it all wrong - now that would be arogant.

BTW - i never said you denied anything Sojouner - i merely said that you cannot deny. Though you have choosen to deny that the Bible teaches sex with a man as a sin - but like i said, when you read the Bible it cannot be denied that this is what God is teaching.

Jesus whipping the moneylenders wasn't to do with them placing salvation on doing certain works - if you read the account it was because they were desecrating God's temple by selling in a Holy place where they should have been worshipping. That angered Jesus and hence the reason he cleared them all out.



Well that is sad, for they are ignoring the word of God and what God has clearly written. For how could they stand up and contradict God by saying, well, we don't actually think homosexuality is a sin. Who are they to decide what is and what isn't a sin? God has already decided it - how could there possibly be anything to decide?

I don't have a problem with any of the scriptures, in and of themselves. It's the baseless interpretation of scripture and the irresponsible praxis that follows that gives me the willies. From the study of cultural anthropology, I know that these references to homosexuality were not meant as moral judgment (sin), but as cultural taboo (social norms). These taboos do not exist in modern Western culture, because our culture is not shame and honor based according to the female and male sexual identities, as has historically been the case in the culture of the Middle East.

Since there is no consensus in the Church, then it's obvious that the Church can not speak of accord on the matter, even where God is concerned. One group will say, "God says this about homosexuality," and another will say, "God says that about homosexuality." How can we formulate an idea of what that accord is, if we, as the Church, cannot agree? Yes, God has spoken. BUT: That is definitely not the end of the matter, because we cannot agree on what it is that God has said through the Biblical writers. Plus, God continues to speak outside of scripture, through the actions of people.

No, it's not your opinion that trumps mine -- neither can you say that God's word trumps my opinion, because that implies that your interpretation of God's word is the "correct" one, and mine is the "incorrect" one. Assuming that you are right and someone else is wrong is arrogant.

You do nothing in the name of the Church? You do everything in the name of the Church, because you, as a believer, are part of the Church. You are an ambassador of the Church, and whatever you do reflects on the Church. You cannnot simply divorce yourself from the Church whenever it suits you.

Yes, yes, yes...I can and do deny that homosexuality is sin. When I read the Bible, I most certainly can...and do deny that this is what God is teaching.

I think your interpretations, as presented here, are shallow. I think the story of Jesus turning out the moneychangers has many layers of meaning. The point of the story is not to give us license to treat people inhospitably in God's house.

Ignoring the word of God? These folks spend their lives working with scripture! They eschew a literalistic interpretation of what the Bible says, which is not the same as "ignoring the word of God."

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

You are more like LDS people then you know. We also believe in righteous judgement.

Lots of Christians believe in righteous judgement. The only problem is, liberal Christians such as Mister T are so obsessive over trying to be "tolerant" of everyone, even those in serious sin, that they cannot (or, at least, will not) recognize that sin in any practical sense, and insist that we allow them to continue in sin and legalize their sin. It makes no sense to me.

FerventGodSeeker

 

[Bishka]

Lots of Christians believe in righteous judgement. The only problem is, liberal Christians such as Mister T are so obsessive over trying to be "tolerant" of everyone, even those in serious sin, that they cannot (or, at least, will not) recognize that sin in any practical sense, and insist that we allow them to continue in sin and legalize their sin. It makes no sense to me.

FerventGodSeeker

Doesn't make sense to me either.

 

[Adstar]

It makes sence when people love the world more than they love God. People who want to conform to the world compromise the Word of God to fit in with the standards of the World.

Romans 12
2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God


But scripture talls us if we are true to the Message of The Word then we will be hated by the world.


John 15
18 “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[sojourner]

It makes sence when people love the world more than they love God. People who want to conform to the world compromise the Word of God to fit in with the standards of the World.

Romans 12
2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God


But scripture talls us if we are true to the Message of The Word then we will be hated by the world.


John 15
18 “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

You're assuming that anyone homosexual is "of the world," and anyone hating homosexuality is not "of the world." I think you're assuming something that is a wrong assumption. I don't think homosexuality is what is "of the world" here. Hatred is "of the world." Self-righteousness is "of the world." Exclusion is "of the world." Inhospitality is "of the world." Worldly people hate and exclude. We expect worldly people to be self-righteous and inhospitable. It seems to me that it's the homosexuals who are hated and persecuted here...not the Christians. It seems to me that some here are "compromising the word of God to fit in with the standards of self-righteousness, exclusion and inhospitality."

I know too many loving, giving, caring, compassionate, humble homosexuals and too many ugly, mean, pompous, judgmental, overbearing Christians. That makes me think that it's not homosexuality, but mean-spirited behavior that is "of the world."

 

[w00t]

If being 'of the world' (a very silly expression as we are all of the world) means that we are tolerant and non judgmental then I want to be 'of the world' always!