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Christians - The Fall of Adam and the Atonement

Comprehend

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
Christians - If the Atonement was planned before the foundation of the world (1Pet. 1:20) and the Atonement isn't necessary without the Fall of Adam, how was the Fall not planned before the foundation of the world as well?
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Comprehend said:
Did God put the tree there on purpose or was it a mistake?
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:cool: I believe He put it there on purpose. Adam and Eve needed to understand both good and evil in order to be able to learn and progress. More significant, though, is the question of why He permitted Lucifer/Satan to tempt them. They would have had free will (i.e. free agency, freedom of choice, etc.) whether Satan was there or not. He told them not to eat that particular fruit, and He told them what the consequences for their disobedience would be. Nothing more was necessary had He simply wanted to allow them to choose for themselves. What nobody has ever been able to explain to my satisfaction is why He permitted Lucifer/Satan to tempt them. When you stop and think about it, He not only knew what was going to happen, He put them in a position where they were almost guaranteed to succumb to temptation. They knew they had been told not to eat the forbidden fruit, but since they didn't understand how serious disobedience was and were tempted with godhood, how else could we expect them to respond? The bottom line is that God not only knew what was going to happen, without actually forcing them to make the decision they did, He definitely set the stage to facilitate the outcome He knew would ultimately be the most beneficial to them.
 
lunamoth

lunamoth

Will to love
What's the advantage of telling them not to eat the fruit if that is the outcome God desired for them?

Why not just invite them to eat the fruit if that is the most beneficial outcome?
 
Comprehend

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
Katzpur said:
:cool: I believe He put it there on purpose. Adam and Eve needed to understand both good and evil in order to be able to learn and progress. More significant, though, is the question of why He permitted Lucifer/Satan to tempt them. They would have had free will (i.e. free agency, freedom of choice, etc.) whether Satan was there or not. He told them not to eat that particular fruit, and He told them what the consequences for their disobedience would be. Nothing more was necessary had He simply wanted to allow them to choose for themselves. What nobody has ever been able to explain to my satisfaction is why He permitted Lucifer/Satan to tempt them. When you stop and think about it, He not only knew what was going to happen, He put them in a position where they were almost guaranteed to succumb to temptation. They knew they had been told not to eat the forbidden fruit, but since they didn't understand how serious disobedience was and were tempted with godhood, how else could we expect them to respond? The bottom line is that God not only knew what was going to happen, without actually forcing them to make the decision they did, He definitely set the stage to facilitate the outcome He knew would ultimately be the most beneficial to them.
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Great. The only serious response I get is from someone who believes the same way I do. :)


Maybe other Christian religions don't teach anything about the fall because I can't get anyone to discuss it.
 
Comprehend

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
lunamoth said:
Isn't it still agency if they have been given a choice?
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Huh?

A choice between good and good isn't a choice.

EDIT:

oh yeah, and also, they cannot be punished unless they break a commandment so God had to command them not to eat it. If he told them to go ahead and eat it, then it would make no sense to punish them for doing so.
 
lunamoth

lunamoth

Will to love
Comprehend said:
Huh?

A choice between good and good isn't a choice.
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I hear you saying that that is what the choice was (between good and good), but God was just kind of playing along that He didn't really want them to eat of it.

Eat from the tree of knowledge and have agency (understanding of good and evil, ability to make choices different than God's).
Don't eat from the tree of knowledge and remain innocent.

Still a choice and it does not require God to mislead us.
 
Super Universe

Super Universe

Defender of God
Serpents don't talk.

Adam planted the tree in his garden, it was just a tree, nothing more.

Adam and Eve's children didn't commit incest.

God doesn't play immature games to test, tempt, and punish us. Existence tests us enough in it's own right.
 
lunamoth

lunamoth

Will to love
Comprehend said:
EDIT:

oh yeah, and also, they cannot be punished unless they break a commandment so God had to command them not to eat it. If he told them to go ahead and eat it, then it would make no sense to punish them for doing so.
Click to expand...
So God wanted to punish humanity?
 
Comprehend

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
lunamoth said:
I hear you saying that that is what the choice was (between good and good), but God was just kind of playing along that He didn't really want them to eat of it.

Eat from the tree of knowledge and have agency (understanding of good and evil, ability to make choices different than God's).
Don't eat from the tree of knowledge and remain innocent.

Still a choice and it does not require God to mislead us.
Click to expand...

I don't know if you saw my edited post above.

God was not "playing along" nor did he mislead them, he gave a commandment that it was necessary to break. They could not be punished otherwise.
 
lunamoth

lunamoth

Will to love
Comprehend said:
I don't know if you saw my edited post above.

God was not "playing along" nor did he mislead them, he gave a commandment that it was necessary to break. They could not be punished otherwise.
Click to expand...

I saw your edit late.

So, God wanted to punish humanity?
 
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