1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Christians Only - What points of doctrine can I get wrong and still make it to Heaven

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Squirt, Apr 9, 2006.

  1. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    36,482
    Ratings:
    +5,311
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    But we humans live in the physical world. Our faith is borne out in the physical world by what we say, and by what we do. Jesus said that a city on a hill cannot be hid.

    We are called by our baptism to seek and serve Christ in all persons, loving our neighbor as ourselves. We are called by our baptism to be Christ to all persons.
    As ecclesia, we are the Body of Christ on earth. Therefore, people come to Christ through the Body of Christ -- us.

    Our faith is not intended to be lived out in a vaccuum. Our faith is community-based, that is, it must be lived out within the community.

    Isn't Jesus judged by the actions and words of his followers? Isn't any great teacher judged by the disposition of his students? Be honest, now.

    The Word of God stands on its own in one respect. In another, very tangible way, though, the Word depends upon humanity to proclaim it.
     
  2. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    36,482
    Ratings:
    +5,311
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    But there are all kinds of good preachers preaching very, very poor theology...and people buy into it! It's flawed information.

    But...the point here is that we are all in this together. We have to live with one another in Christ. We have to live out the word with each other in the world. If one is right -- we're all right. If one is wrong -- we're all wrong, because we are one Body. Jesus never asked for or expected perfection. He just asked that we love each other.
     
  3. nutshell

    nutshell Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
    Messages:
    7,136
    Ratings:
    +669
    I completely agree with your post except for the point I've bolded. Matthew 5:48 reads, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect" (KJV).

    What do you (or anyone else) make of that?
     
  4. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    36,482
    Ratings:
    +5,311
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    The context here is a teaching about unconditional love, which is perfect love. Here, Jesus is contrasting the usual human practice of conditional love (love of family, friends, etc.) with the practice of perfect (unconditional) love (love of everyone, including one's enemies). Jesus is asking us to participate in perfect love -- not perfect belief, or perfect actions.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. lunamoth

    lunamoth Will to love

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    9,869
    Ratings:
    +1,626
    Religion:
    Episcopalian
    "You must spread some karma around..." :clap

    lunamoth
     
  6. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    2,780
    Ratings:
    +200
    2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
    (King James Bible, Ephesians)
    3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
    3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
    2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
    (King James Bible, Galatians)
    4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
    4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
    5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
    5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
    5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
    (King James Bible, Romans)
    for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
    (King James Bible, 2 Timothy)

    Salvation is a free gift, I accepted it, I believed, good works being a result, not an addition to it. Man looks at the outward appearance, but God sees in our hearts, He knows who has believed in Jesus, not us, and He will keep us and not let anything pluck us out of His hand, nor separate us from His love, and He will in no wise cast us out. Salvation must be accepted as a free, undeserved gift, not as a reward for works, it is a gift and nothing else, God will not be a debtor to any man. Works are a result, part of our growth, our other rewards, APART from salvation. Salvation is free, we accept it, and its ours, freely given the moment we have believed. No amount of works can make us 'deserve' salvation, grace is undeserved merit. We are saved by grace through faith, not of works, the works come later. Works show we have been saved, they are a result. If a person says they have faith, and no works follow, then they are just saying they have faith, they don't actually have faith. If we have placed our trust in Jesus to save us, understood the significance of the totally undeserved, free gift He gave us, then out of great love and gratitude, works will naturally flow as we grow in grace. If we believe we must 'do our part', or 'hold out faithful' (perseverance of the saints rather than the PRESERVATION of the saints), or any other such legalistic ideas, we are in danger of becoming very judgemental and critical of everyone we see. But God knows we are weak, sinful, humans who still have a sin-nature, as long as we have this body of death, not yet raised/changed incorruptible, immortal, glorified. He knows that we will fall, fail, mess up, screw up, think wrong, etc, and He loves us anyway, no matter what, and will love us, correct us, help us, but never leave us nor forsake us. Amazing, neverending, overflowing, mercy and grace and love.

    Just some thots, take care, and God bless...
    Mike
     
  7. Evandr2

    Evandr2 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    141
    Ratings:
    +19
    Sojourner - Good Post. :highfive:

    What you said about unconditional love being a focus of perfection is correct.

    Also, as you stated, we cannot be perfect in belief, AKA - knowledge. That is because it would require the replacement of faith and we must live by faith.

    Again, as you implied, when the Lord said "Be ye perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect", it is illogical that He meant in mortality seeing how we are already imperfect and the only path to perfection is through Christ as our mediator before God.

    I believe that the Lord's admonition for us to be perfect reaches past this mortal realm. Ultimate perfection is a very achievable goal because of the atonement of Jesus Christ. We CAN be found perfect in all things at the judgment seat of God if we keep the commandments and are worthy of having our garments washed clean in the blood of Christ.

    It is my personal conviction that “be ye perfect” means to keep the commandments, strive to be perfect, and when we fail, repent and turn to Christ for forgiveness by renewing our baptismal covenants. This, I believe, is done by making a conscious and honest decision to improve our performance as we partake of the Sacrament. As a Mormon, and a Christian, I partake of the Sacrament often.

    That is not to say that grievous sins such as sexual promiscuity and abuse, gross dishonesty, and the spilling of innocent blood can be washed away by initiating or renewing baptismal covenant but that discussion is for another thread.

    Vandr


     
  8. Evandr2

    Evandr2 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    141
    Ratings:
    +19
    Hello Mike

    Your scriptural references were extensive and they say a lot about the love and grace of God.

    I is true that we need do nothing at all to be resurrected. Everyone will be blessed that by virtue that "in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

    I think what the overwhelming majority of Christians fall prey to is the idea that our eternal condition is either Heaven or Hell. The fundamental principle of justice cannot be satisfied by that view. Salvation is free but exaltation in the kingdon of God is not.

    Striving to be a good person and publishing the fact that you believe in Christ and in keeping the commandments is sufficient to receive many of the blessings of our Heavenly Father but becoming one of the elect of the Lord and living in His exalted realm for all eternity and receiving all the blessings that He can give you requires more than that.

    If you would like to understand more thoroughly what I mean, please visit www.faithandevidence.com/source/eviden15.htm


    Vandr
     
  9. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    36,482
    Ratings:
    +5,311
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    Our attitude should be to strive for perfection of heart -- to always look for and participate in unconditional love.
     
  10. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    2,780
    Ratings:
    +200
    I understand what you mean, while salvation is free, our postion in the kindgom of God, and our rewards will be from what we do and how we obey out of love for God and others, as He first loved us. We would probably disagree on exactly what we should do, i.e. covenants, baptisms, (and for the dead), etc. but we can agree that the more we let the Holy Spirit control our lives and the more we submit to God's will, the more productive we will be.
     
  11. Mystic-als

    Mystic-als Active Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    690
    Ratings:
    +31
    Almost all points of doctrine.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Evandr2

    Evandr2 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    141
    Ratings:
    +19
    I am very much in agreement with your statement.:yes:

    Vandr
     
  13. Baerly

    Baerly Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    431
    Ratings:
    +13
    Hello everyone,i have read most all of this thread and i have many concerns.I am just a person who is learning the word of God like many of you.

    In (John17:8) Jesus praying to his father (God) said I have given unto them (the apostles) the words which thou hast given to me;and they have received them.

    (John 14;26 ; 15:13) tells us that the holy spirit was going to bring to the rememberance all things Jesus said to the apostles.

    (1Cor.14:37) tells us that the things that Paul wrote were the commandments of the Lord. Paul wrote 3/4 of the new testament. Many claim that because these words are not in red they are not the commandments of Jesus, but (1Cor.14:37) tells us different.

    God gave the words to Jesus, who gave the words to the apostles,and they wrote them down in epistles with the help of the holy spirit. This is so very important.The words we read in the bible are in fact the very words of God put in a book for man to read. We can understand it (Eph.3:3,4).

    God has spoke to man (Heb. 1:1). And in these last days God has spoken to us through Jesus (Heb. 1:2). We ought Pay attention to the things which we have heard,lest at any time we should let them slip.

    Now that brings us to (1Tim. 1:3) which tells us to teach no other doctrine. How can we go to heaven teaching any and all kinds of differing doctrines,when Jesus tells us to teach no other doctrine? Whatever Jesus has taught we are not to teach anything different.

    I have been reading these posts that say we can disobey the commandments of God and still go to heaven. If I am not mistaken The bible says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to them that obey him (Heb.5:8,9). And if we disobey his commandments after we become christians we end up like Simon the sorcerer in (Acts 8:20-22).Simon was a Christian and was told by Peter he was about to perish along with his money because of what he tried to do.

    I do not think we can work our way to heaven. Without grace were are all in a bad way.But grace does not negate works all together. In fact if you will read (Titus 2:11,12) ....grace.... appeared... teaching us to deny ungodliness and worldly lust,we should live soberly,righteously,and godly in this present world. Graces teaches us by the new testament law how to do these things (Heb. 8:10)(Col.3). The law was to go forth from Jerusalem (Isa.2:3). A law is to be obeyed. If we do not obey this law that went forth from Jerusalem we will end up in jeopardy of loosing our souls just like Simon the sorcerer.. If we are not under any law after we become a christian why was Simon the sorcerer about to perish with his money? It is clear we are under law according to (Gal.6:1,2) we are to fullfill the law of Christ. Also (James 1:25) says we are under the perfect law of liberty.

    What is it that causes a person to lose his/her soul after they become a Christian? According (2 Peter 2:21) it is turning from the holy commandments.

    Many have said all they have to do is love Jesus. But jesus said if you love me you will keep my commandments (John 14:15,21). Jesus equated love with obeying his commandments. in love Baerly
     
  14. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2004
    Messages:
    16,472
    Ratings:
    +3,192
    Religion:
    Christian Taoist
    Jesus reduced all the laws into just two:

    Love God

    Love everyone else.

    If you truly keep to these you will never fail.
     
  15. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    30,414
    Ratings:
    +6,083
    Religion:
    LDS Christian
    Not again! :D
     
  16. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2004
    Messages:
    16,472
    Ratings:
    +3,192
    Religion:
    Christian Taoist
    Dearest Kat...

    One day, it will make all the sense in the world! :D
     
  17. Baerly

    Baerly Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    431
    Ratings:
    +13
    NetDoc -

    Jesus reduced all the laws into just two:

    Love God

    Love everyone else.

    If you truly keep to these you will never fail.


    Baerly - I don't think Jesus REDUCED all the laws into two. I think what he said was all the others hang on these two. One does not fullfill all the other laws of the new testment by keeping ONLY two laws. I know many teach that,but I do not believe that is what the scripture says. If I am wrong I am sure someone will correct me. in love Baerly
    ___________________________
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Baerly

    Baerly Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    431
    Ratings:
    +13
    In fact Jesus equated love with obeying his commandments (John 14:15,21)

    Then Paul said the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord (1Cor.14:37). That covers many different commandments because the apostle Paul did alot of writting. Then we find in (2 Peter 3:1-3) that there will come scoffers who will not want to follow the commandments of the Lord.they will want to walk after their own lust. WE sure do not want to be one of these people,because verse 5 says they are willingly IGNORANT. That cannot be good in anyones book. in love Baerly
    in love Baerly
     
  19. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2004
    Messages:
    16,472
    Ratings:
    +3,192
    Religion:
    Christian Taoist
    This is sadly true. Many won't take Jesus at his word: that Christians will be KNOWN by their love for each other and not by their willingness to castigate one another over nuances in scripture. I do believe that many who are intent on making us revert to a "law based" existence merely have a lust for POWER.
    Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 1718 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 20 Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21 "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. NIV

    But hey, just because I refuse to depart from grace and try to live under the law, doesn't mean you aren't free to try. Let me know how you fare!
     
  20. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    30,414
    Ratings:
    +6,083
    Religion:
    LDS Christian
    Baerly,

    I'm absolutely positive that someone will "correct" you, but it won't be me! I see it exactly the same way you do. :clap

    Katzpur
     
Loading...