Christians only... Justification of ANY war of aggression.

[angellous_evangellous]

My bible just says, "thou shalt not kill". And that's what I think it means. I don't think it means, "thou shalt not kill except when thou thinkest it justified".

That's a popular misreading, and an impossible interpretation in its context. In order to read it like that, we have to pretend like it has no relationship to any other texts in the Bible related to killing and murder.

We can pretend like it means that, though. No one who supports that reading would be able to support any state in the world, or affirm the killing of animals or anything else, perhaps living in a stateless Buddhist temple.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Oh Rick,

What makes you think that I am not a Patriot? Because I disagree with YOU?

No, I respect your disagreement with me. I think if there never was any war, we would still be under English rule and by using your logic, it would be impossible for you to be a Patriot if you refuse to fight under any circumstances. Soldiers do not have the luxuary of choosing their battles and that is exactly what you did when you did not go to Vietnam like I did. I felt exactly the same way you did, but I went and you did not which explains the basic difference between us.

How about our commitment to making this country GREAT?
Well, I have only volunteered with the Boy Scouts of America for the last 15+ years. I host the websites for the Central Florida Council as well as the North Florida Council, not to mention that I just drove across the country to help do a Powderhorn Training. I won't disclose how much money I give to this effort on a yearly basis, but I can't remember the last year where I didn't give over 200 hours by teaching adults and kids alike.

If you want to compare sitting around a campfire with boys compared to fighting a war with men, I am speechless. We both give of our time and money to the community Pete.

How about wounds? I was knifed in the back (as a kid) by someone who didn't like the fact that I was against the Vietnam war. I guess you consider HIM to be a patriot, but not me?

My aversion to a war of aggression does not lie in a lack of Patriotism, but rather stems from it.

I was spit on and called a baby killer,(that was not you was it?).
Your lucky you survived your incident.

You cannot have it both ways Pete. You cannot be this perfect Christian and perfect Patriot at the same time. Perhaps you were a better Christian than me back then and perhaps I was the better Patriot at that time. What it boils down to is you can dish it out but cannot take it. You raise the question about my Christianity and then claim to be this great Patriot. Go to war and watch your best friend die in front of you and then get back to me about your campfire stories.

 

[Scuba Pete]

No, I respect your disagreement with me. I think if there never was any war, we would still be under English rule and by using your logic, it would be impossible for you to be a Patriot if you refuse to fight under any circumstances.

I fight with something OTHER than guns.

Soldiers do not have the luxuary of choosing their battles and that is exactly what you did when you did not go to Vietnam like I did.

Au contraire... I did the patriotic deed and exercised my rights as a patriot and proved that I could not kill another human being.

I felt exactly the same way you did,

OBVIOUSLY NOT!

If you want to compare sitting around a campfire with boys compared to fighting a war with men, I am speechless. We both give of our time and money to the community Pete.I was spit on and called a baby killer,(that was not you was it?).

It appears that you simply DON'T understand Patriotism.

Your lucky you survived your incident.

I am sure you were disappointed in the "Patriot" who did that to me and failed to succeed.

You cannot have it both ways Pete. You cannot be this perfect Christian and perfect Patriot at the same time.

I don't claim to be a perfect ANYTHING.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I fight with something OTHER than guns.

I respect that

Au contraire... I did the patriotic deed and exercised my rights as a patriot and proved that I could not kill another human being

You never know what you can do until the situation arises

.OBVIOUSLY NOT!It appears that you simply DON'T understand Patriotism.

Thats bull Pete! Did you read where I said I did not want to go? Being a man sometimes requires doing something you don't want to do in service for your country, not because you agree with it, because you are a true Patriot and are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice. Something you know nothing about.

I am sure you were disappointed in the "Patriot" who did that to me and failed to succeed.

You must view me as a monster Pete. I would never wish anything bad to happen to you. You really need to get over this hate in your heart for our comander in chief if you ever want to look anything like a Patriot.

I don't claim to be a perfect ANYTHING.

Great, that makes both of us and finally something we agree on.

 

[PureX]

That's a popular misreading, and an impossible interpretation in its context. In order to read it like that, we have to pretend like it has no relationship to any other texts in the Bible related to killing and murder.

We can pretend like it means that, though. No one who supports that reading would be able to support any state in the world, or affirm the killing of animals or anything else, perhaps living in a stateless Buddhist temple.

Exactly! The purpose of the law was to show us that we are sinners.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Pete, have you ever considered praying for our President instead of hating him and his party so much?

 

[Reverend Rick]

All men are sinners and fall short of the grace of God. Our best works are like filthy rags to him.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Pete, have you ever considered praying for our President instead of hating him and his party so much?

You have committed three errors in this one post:

1. You assume that I have never prayed for Shrub.
2. You assume that I hate Shrub. I don't even hate Sadamn or Hitler.
3. You assume that I hate the Republican Party.

I hate the sins: not the sinner.

 

[Reverend Rick]

You have committed three errors in this one post:

1. You assume that I have never prayed for Shrub.
2. You assume that I hate Shrub. I don't even hate Sadamn or Hitler.
3. You assume that I hate the Republican Party.

I hate the sins: not the sinner.

Pete, you read too much into my posts. I simply asked you a question. I did not assume anything except the hate for conservatives. You call him a shrub, you have called me a "coltierite" (sp?) before. You pass judgement when you know we all fall short. You find fault with a decision I made over 35 years ago as a teenager when I served my country. It was a fair guess that you hate when you provoke someone to attack you and call people names. Think about it Pete, have I ever called you a name? You assumed that I took pleasure in your pain of being attacked and looked upon your attacker as a Patriot. What do you think I done when I returned from Vietnam and was called baby killer and was spit upon? I turned the other cheek and was glad I was back in my country where I did not have to make a life decision whether I should have to shoot someone or not. Believe me, I considered going to Canada, but I manned up and did my duty for my country. You think the first time I ever though about what I done was right or wrong in the Lords eyes is when we first started debating? I have thought long and hard about this each and every day of my life. I wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat and think I am still 20 years old and I am going to die! I guess I should bite my tongue and let you pass judgment on me.

You cannot have it both ways Pete. Where you the superior Christian back then or the superior Patriot? I made one choice and you made another. One of us must hold one title and the other one of us the other. Your condescending superior attitude is growing tiresome. I hope you find the candidate you like and they win the Democratic candidacy. They will be so far left that they will have no chance of winning. Like it or not, the moderates will choose our next President and the party that is furthest from the middle is going to lose.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Pete, you read too much into my posts. I simply asked you a question.

These are loaded questions, much like "When did you stop beating your wife?" They assumed ALL THREE THINGS that I pointed out.

You call him a shrub, you have called me a "coltierite" (sp?) before.

I don't know that I have called ANYONE that name. I sometimes point out that people have gotten a Limbaughtomy when they lose their brain to Rush, but I am not sure I have said that on this forum.

You pass judgement when you know we all fall short.

I never passed judgment on your patriotism, but I DID ask some pointed questions about how ANYONE can be a Christian and support a war of aggression

You find fault with a decision I made over 35 years ago as a teenager when I served my country.

The converse is true. You somehow think I was less of a man and not a patriot. Who is labeling who here? Look at your verbage: "your lucky to be alive". That doesn't reek of compassion as much as it sounds that I should be thankful that he didn't just wipe me out for what I believed.

Believe me, I considered going to Canada, but I manned up and did my duty for my country.

While I manned up and did what I thought was right and never ever considered Canada. See? I was not AFRAID of DYING. I was completely dead set against KILLING.

You cannot have it both ways Pete. Where you the superior Christian back then or the superior Patriot?

I don't claim to be a superior ANYTHING. I am just Pete, with more flaws than the average Joe. I don't claim moral superiority and I don't claim to be an uber patriot. However, that does not prevent me from pointing out what I think is grossly IMMORAL. It's not my fault that Shrub is not quite a Bush. His dad (and his brother) are great! In fact, I would have a hard time NOT voting for Jeb. It would depend on what he wants to do with the war.

Our soldiers are doing their job, just like during Viet Nam and I have NO BEEF with them. I doubt that most of them want to be there. My BEEF is with the American Leadership who have continued to justify Haliburton's War and couch it in patriotic overtones. I just quoted this in another thread, but it could bear another look/see here. From Herman Goering on patriotism, pacificsm, and manipulating the people in a time of war :

Herman Goering on patriotism, pacifism and manipulating the people in a time of war

Psychologist Gustave Gilbert had extraordinary access to the Nuremberg defendants during their trial.The passage below is from Gilbert's classic Nuremberg Diary (1947). It refers to a conversation the two had in Goering's cell on 18 April 1946 during a three-day Easter break in the trial. Goering committed suicide the following October 15.
​

We got around to the subject of war again and I said that, contrary to his attitude, I did not think that the common people are very thankful for leaders who bring them war and destruction.
"Why, of course, the people don't want war," Goering shrugged. "Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."
"There is one difference," I pointed out. "In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars."
"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."


Prophecy at it's finest. Some of our finest patriots have STOOD UP to our government and made a difference. Or do you not consider Martin Luther King Jr a patriot?

​

 

[blackout]

Staying out of this thread is just about killing me.

I'm pretty sure most of you would not consider me "same faith",
even though the Life and Teachings of Y'shua
are dearer to my heart than any other.

When will followers? of Christ, simply follow the path...
in faith of The Father?
One either trusts in the WAY of God... or the way of the world.
Did Y'shua not show us the supernatural way?
and yet we continue to rely on guns, and governments.

Institutional churches, will always be bedfellows with the rest of institution.
So who do you think you can trust for your info. anyway?

The kingdom is within.
There are other powers there.... within....
for "fighting wars".
Seek ye the kingdom first,
and all other things will be taken care of.
(including providence and protection)

Did Jesus not show us this?

What else is there to understand?


Anyway, frubals to Scuba.

 

[Scuba Pete]

You're close enough for me!

Frubals on your head!

 

[Scuba Pete]

Have you noticed how the preponderance of the arguments for going to war is patriotism, and yet someone posted a thread listing how all these "uber-patriots" are complete and utter frauds! They dodged the Vietnam Draft with lame-o excuses.