Father Heathen
Veteran Member
If that were true then why would the bible oppose those things?
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Christians launch defence of faith 'under attack'
- Thread starter Youtellme
- Start date
The slave trade was well established long before "religious men" brought slavery to America.
African slave trade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://library.thinkquest.org/13406/ta/2.htm
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waitasec
Veteran Member
Alceste
Vagabond
Hang on, now - does this mean you are assuming the claims of this group are well-founded? What of the numerous quotes (even from a Christian think tank) that indicate the claims are baseless and / or exaggerated?
Midnight Pete
Well-Known Member
The faith *is* under attack, but it is also doing a lot of attacking in its own right.
'Nuff said.
'Nuff said.
Alceste
Vagabond
As a matter of fact, it isn't. 'Nuff said.
waitasec
Veteran Member
The context of my remark was in regards to "religious men" in America. My point was, they did not come up with the idea of slavery, it had been going on for centuries in countries that had no knowledge of God or religion. In other words, it was going on before the people that are accused where even born.
Just how long did you take to read my sources if at all? You moved the goal posts a few centuries.
waitasec
Veteran Member
The context of my remark was in regards to "religious men" in America. My point was, they did not come up with the idea of slavery, it had been going on for centuries in countries that had no knowledge of God or religion. In other words, it was going on before the people that are accused where even born.
Just how long did you take to read my sources if at all? You moved the goal posts a few centuries.
guess again. are you suggesting slavery is wrong? why would you?
god condoned it in your bible...:yes:
My comment had nothing to do with the Bible and everything to do with gnomes misreprensentation of slavery in America.
And that has what to do with my comment?
If you want to quote me, at least take the time to read my sources. I'm talking about apples and all you want to discuss is oranges.
If you want me to have a biblical debate with you, perhaps you could narrow things down from "my bible" to a few verses that might apply to your argument.
waitasec
Veteran Member
you know what, you're right. i apologize.
it was acceptable to beat a slave so severely that it only disabled him or her for two days:
exodus 21:20-21, 26-27
slaves in ancient israel were automatically emancipated after 6 years of slavery, but only if they were Jewish. however, if the slave owner "gave" the slave a wife, the owner could keep the wife and any children as his property.
exodus 21:1-4
exodus 21:7: "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do."
It's cool, we just both have to get on the same page at the same time.
Yes, there is some pretty rough stuff in the old testament. Your examples are far from the most extreme. The first 5 books of the Bible are suppose to be written by Moses who was a slave himself at one time. Slavery was commonplace back then and I believe the laws applied to the people of those times.
Yes, many people in more modern times used the old testament to validate the terrible practice of slavery. As a Christian these laws no longer apply in the old testament and we now are under the new covenant. This does not get the Christian off the hook completely however, because slavery still existed in the new testament as well.
Compared to the old testament though, things where much milder.
A religious person could almost justify anything if they where to quote the Bible out of context. People do this even today. That does not make them right however and they are the exception not the norm for today's Christian.
The injustice right now in modern times would be homosexuality. Jesus said for us to love one another and to leave judgement to the Lord. If you want to get the broad brush out, it would be much more accurate to paint the religious homophobes than it would to say modern day Christians embrace slavery.
My point about slavery was, it had gone on for centuries in Africa by non-Christians and was not invented by the Bible thumpers.
Can we blame slavery on the Bible? I hardly think so.
The thing is, there is bad and good in any group of people. Christians are no exception.
gnomon
Well-Known Member
No kidding.
The point I was going to make to Man of Faith is that the Christian heritage concept of the United States is largely a myth. There is nothing substantive beyond pointing out that the majority of Americans belonged to one Christian denomination or another. All the good things and all the bad things regarding the development of the United States involved Christians. The revolutionaries as well as the loyalists involved people who were predominantly Christian. The slave trade was supported and opposed by Christians. The government's attitude towards native tribes in North America was supported and opposed by Christians.
In other words, the various Christian religions were not the relevant aspect in important events or institutions in the United States. There's not much to point to in U.S. history and say "because of Christianity" it is this way. The motivations behind the founding of the United States and the legal systems established are as steeped in traditions pre-dating Christianity as much as they are the New Testament. Christianity plays a large role in the cultural development of the United States but not as much in the federal system established as government. I chose the examples I did in my post to Man of Faith because those who exhort the idea of the Christian heritage of the United States tend to emphasize the concepts that are good or to be proud of about this nation while overlooking everything else. It doesn't work that way.
edit: And where did I ever say in the original post that Christians were the cause of any of those things? I didn't.
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waitasec
Veteran Member
It's cool, we just both have to get on the same page at the same time.
oh great! you are so nice...i feel like such a jerk
i blame the bible for perpetuating the idea of slavery as a god given right. i do not blame the bible thumpers for inventing slavery. it's a cowardly tool to justify injustices.
homophobic christians (of which are the norm, in my opinion) are doing the same thing as a way to justify their fear towards the reality of homosexuality.
if one were to have the peace of the lord, their faith would speak louder than words, but since christians try to take control over peoples inalienable rights, it only shows the lack of peace and faith and why they believe they are being attacked.
you however, seem to be very open minded, a rare testament to the christian faith.
and again i am very sorry for being a jerk...
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Just like a brick wall "attacks" someone who runs into it.
waitasec
Veteran Member
Midnight Pete
Well-Known Member
No, more like someone with a jackhammer attacks the brick wall.
How do you think "the faith" is under attack, and who do you think is attacking it?
BTW - when you say "the faith", what do you mean? Religion in general? Christianity? Some segment of Christianity? Your personal beliefs? Something else?
Midnight Pete
Well-Known Member
Who are your heroes? Who are New Atheists? You're feigning ignorance ....
When I say "the faith" I mean the Christian faith as per the OP title.
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
I know that this is addressed to MP, but I have a few opinions....
As we know, the Church has been cannabalizing itself. The Roman Catholics are at the center of sex scandals that have brought to light pervasive sexual abuse amongst clergy from every Christian sect. Also, the Church is dealing with homosexuality, bioethics, politics, and fiscal issues -- and splitting and breaking fellowship over the smallest disagreement. So Christians are losing faith in the Church as a safe place to express their Christianity - they feel attacked, and they are - but not from without, from within.
The Church doesn't want to blame itself. It lashes out at every scrapegoat.