• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Christians, Is Peter the rock?

Astounded

Member
yes, one of those odd beliefs was that Peter was the 'rock'

fortunately he later came to realize it was not in harmony with scripture and changed that idea.

You might want to pay attention to one of Augustine's other quotes:

"Furthermore, the Catholic Church alone is the body of Christ, of which He is the Head and Saviour of His body. Outside this body the Holy Spirit giveth life to no one seeing that, as the apostle says himself, “The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us;” but he is not a partaker of the divine love who is the enemy of unity. Therefore they have not the Holy Ghost who are outside the Church; for it is written of them, “They separate themselves being sensual, having not the Spirit.”

or..

Rome has spoken...the case is closed..
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
You might want to pay attention to one of Augustine's other quotes:

"Furthermore, the Catholic Church alone is the body of Christ, of which He is the Head and Saviour of His body. Outside this body the Holy Spirit giveth life to no one seeing that, as the apostle says himself, “The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us;” but he is not a partaker of the divine love who is the enemy of unity. Therefore they have not the Holy Ghost who are outside the Church; for it is written of them, “They separate themselves being sensual, having not the Spirit.”

or..

Rome has spoken...the case is closed..

lol, oh right. :p

Well i guess Rome can say whatever they like, but those with greater authority are the ones who actually were appointed by Christ himself. And what did the Apostle Peter state at 1 Peter 2:4-8?
 

Astounded

Member
lol, oh right. :p

Well i guess Rome can say whatever they like, but those with greater authority are the ones who actually were appointed by Christ himself. And what did the Apostle Peter state at 1 Peter 2:4-8?

So now you don't like what Augustine has to say??? LOL.

The scripture states it clearly...Christ asks His apostles a question...who am I?? We read that several of them get the answer wrong. Peter gets it right. Peter wins the prize as he passes the test. He will be the teacher with authority that Jesus will hand off His church to when He is gone...
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
So now you don't like what Augustine has to say??? LOL.

The scripture states it clearly...Christ asks His apostles a question...who am I?? We read that several of them get the answer wrong. Peter gets it right. Peter wins the prize as he passes the test. He will be the teacher with authority that Jesus will hand off His church to when He is gone...

i take it you didnt bother to read what peter himself believed about Jesus words to him.

nevermind.
 

Astounded

Member
i take it you didnt bother to read what peter himself believed about Jesus words to him.

nevermind.


What Peter is saying there has nothing to do with what Jesus is telling Peter in the 'rock' passage. All Peter is stating is that the people rejected the Father's appointed teacher with authority, Jesus. Just as you reject Jesus' appointed teacher with authority, Peter.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
What Peter is saying there has nothing to do with what Jesus is telling Peter in the 'rock' passage. All Peter is stating is that the people rejected the Father's appointed teacher with authority, Jesus. Just as you reject Jesus' appointed teacher with authority, Peter.

Peter is not talking about himself as the 'head of the corner' or the 'stone the builders rejected' or the stone laid in Zion. He is saying that Jesus is that one...and Jesus said that his church is built on such a rock.

6 For it is contained in Scripture: “Look! I am laying in Zion a stone, chosen, a foundation cornerstone, precious; and no one exercising faith in it will by any means come to disappointment.” 7 It is to YOU, therefore, that he is precious, because YOU are believers; but to those not believing, “the identical stone that the builders rejected has become [the] head of [the] corner,” 8 and “a stone of stumbling and a rock-mass of offense


The only ones who seek to identify Peter as the 'rock' are those who claim they are Peters successors. Its funny, i thought Christianity was based on Christ, not Peter.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
What Peter is saying there has nothing to do with what Jesus is telling Peter in the 'rock' passage. All Peter is stating is that the people rejected the Father's appointed teacher with authority, Jesus. Just as you reject Jesus' appointed teacher with authority, Peter.

Please post which Scripture states Peter is Jesus' appointed teacher..... ?

At Acts [15vs22-40] Luke wrote 'plural' in verse 22 mentioning as it pleased the apostles and elders....
Although Peter was an apostle, where is he singled out as being appointed teacher with authority over the other apostles and elders in chapter 15 ?
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Of course, but every usage of the word rock was not my point. It was the usage of the word rock as it pertains to Jesus elsewhere in the Bible.

But I'm not denying that it also refers to Christ as a rock. I'm just telling you that it's you that it's a highly questionalbe argument if all you got is "well that's what they called Christ in another verse so it can't also refer to Peter".....That is just horrid exegetical work.
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
I'm just telling you that it's you that it's a highly questionalbe argument if all you got is "well that's what they called Christ in another verse so it can't also refer to Peter".....That is just horrid exegetical work.

Well, if cross referencing Biblical passages is a horrid exegetical practice, then you got me. That's why I posted the Greek, which explains the different forms of the English word "rock" and Greek words "petros" and "petra".

james2ko made the same point earlier.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2755129-post2.html

Jesus said, “And I say unto thee, that thou art Peter {Greek: petros, a piece of a rock], and upon this ROCK [Greek: PETRA, or large ROCK-cornerstone) I will build My Church, and the gates of hades {the grave-death) shall not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:18).
http://kukis.org/Doctrines/ROCK.pdf
17. Except with regards to Peter, the word ðÝôñïò is not found in the New Testament. Our corresponding word
for tsûr from the Old Testament is ðÝôñá. Our fist use of ðÝôñá in the New Testament is found in
Matt. 7:24–27, where our Lord relates a parable where the person who builds their life upon the Word of Jesus
Christ is like the man who builds his house upon a rock (ðÝôñá). When we build our lives upon the written and
the living Word of God, it is like building our house upon a rock, a sure foundation, and nothing will destroy it.
18. There is some confusion concerning Matt. 17:18, which reads, "And further I say to you that you are Peter
(ÐÝôñïò, a rock or a stone) and upon this rock (ðÝôñá, a large boulder) I will build My church; and the council
of the unseen will not overpower it." Those who know nothing about the original languages, assumed that both
words for rock were the same. Obviously, this is not the case. Furthermore, this is taken out of context where
Peter identifies Jesus as the Messiah (the Christ). The Rock upon which the church is founded is Jesus
Christ, the Messiah, as we have seen for the past dozen or so points from the Old Testament; the church is
not founded upon Peter.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Well, if cross referencing Biblical passages is a horrid exegetical practice, then you got me. That's why I posted the Greek, which explains the different forms of the English word "rock" and Greek words "petros" and "petra".

james2ko made the same point earlier.

Please don't jump to conclusions and assume I was refering to cross referencing in general; because I wasn't. Cross referencing can be useful but it's sloppy to use it across the board. Not only sloppy, but you can literally misinterpret things.

Did you read my initial post? #28.

Please give it whirl.
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
Please don't jump to conclusions and assume I was refering to cross referencing in general; because I wasn't.


It sounded like you were to me.


Cross referencing can be useful but it's sloppy to use it across the board. Not only sloppy, but you can literally misinterpret things.
You are confusing "misinterpretation" for "a different interpretation" and one that many christian scholars support.


Did you read my initial post? #28.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2797954-post28.html

Yes I did and I have to say, it is remarkable that you use the only language of the three possible languages, that this story could have been written in, that has no different spellings of the word "rock". :sarcastic

http://kukis.org/Doctrines/ROCK.pdf
1. The vocabulary:
a. The Hebrew word for rock is tsûr (ø { ö ) [pronounced tsoor] and it means rock, cliff.
b. Another word often translated rock in the Bible is çela< (ò ìÇ ñ‡ ) [pronounced SEH- lah] and it can mean
craggy rock, fortress, stronghold. This word is not really the subject of this study.
c. The Hebrew word for stone is ’eben (ï á‡ à‡ ) [pronounced EH-ben]; this can refer to smaller stones, even
precious stones, whereas tsûr means boulder or larger. This is not the primary subject of our p resent
study, although there will be some references to this word.
d. The Greek word for rock is ðÝôñá, which is the feminine form.
e. Another Greek word for rock is ðÝôñïò is the masculine form, which means piece of rock; it is also the
proper name for Peter. This is not found in the New Testament except in connection with Peter.

f. The Greek word for stone is ëßèïò and it corresponds well with the Hebrew word.
2. Our first Hebrew word tsûr is found at the very beginning to be a type. In Ex. 17:6, Moses is commanded to
strike this rock and out of it would come waters which would cause the Jews to live. This is one of the most
important events of the Old Testament, as it is mentioned in Psalm 78:20 105:41 114:8. Of the Jews it was
said in the New Testament: And all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock
which followed them; and the rock was the Messiah (I Cor. 10:4). The Greek word for rock here is ðÝôñá. This
identifies the Hebrew word tsûr with the Greek word ðÝôñá, establishes the rock of the Old Testament as a
type of Jesus Christ and identifies Jesus Christ with both of those words (which is the actual focus of our
study). I should point out that in order for an incident or a thing in the Old Testament to be a type, it does not
have to be so identified in the New Testament. Several are, such as this example.
 

Astounded

Member
Google all of the times 'Rock' appears in the bible where it refers to God. What is God but the ultimate teacher with authority. Who is Jesus but the Father's teacher with authority inside time, the Word.

Replace 'rock' with teacher with authority. God is the teacher with authority of your salvation. Peter is the choice of Jesus as teacher with authority to build His church on when He is gone.

All the pope has is teaching authority, no more, no less.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Google all of the times 'Rock' appears in the bible where it refers to God. What is God but the ultimate teacher with authority. Who is Jesus but the Father's teacher with authority inside time, the Word.

Replace 'rock' with teacher with authority. God is the teacher with authority of your salvation. Peter is the choice of Jesus as teacher with authority to build His church on when He is gone.

All the pope has is teaching authority, no more, no less.

Jesus said that 'All authority has been given to ME in heaven and on earth..."

he didnt mention Peter.
 

Astounded

Member
Jesus said that 'All authority has been given to ME in heaven and on earth..."

he didnt mention Peter.

Correct. While alive all teaching authority rests in Jesus who got it from the Father and Jesus passes it on to Peter....He never passed it to Brooklyn.....
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Correct. While alive all teaching authority rests in Jesus who got it from the Father and Jesus passes it on to Peter....He never passed it to Brooklyn.....

Jesus spoke those words after his death....not before it. That is Matthew 28:16 I quoted....when Jesus was disappearing into to heaven.

the authority to teach remained with Jesus before and after his death and was expressed through all the 12 apostles...not only Peter.
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
Jesus spoke those words after his death....not before it. That is Matthew 28:16 I quoted....when Jesus was disappearing into to heaven.

the authority to teach remained with Jesus before and after his death and was expressed through all the 12 apostles...not only Peter.

Not only that, but at the last supper, the apostles were still asking Jesus who was the top dog of them all. If Jesus appointed Peter as Grand Poobah, they would not have asked that question later.
 

Astounded

Member
Jesus spoke those words after his death....not before it. That is Matthew 28:16 I quoted....when Jesus was disappearing into to heaven.

the authority to teach remained with Jesus before and after his death and was expressed through all the 12 apostles...not only Peter.

So Jesus wasn't 'alive' after the resurrection??? If you read scripture, the 11 become His teachers with authority only after Jesus tells them to go forth and preach/baptize, then ascends. All bishops are teachers with authority via apostolic succession.

It's very simple. If Jesus intended to use your teaching method, there would be no need for the apostles. He would have been a one man show with a scribe with every one doing their own thing.
 

Astounded

Member
Not only that, but at the last supper, the apostles were still asking Jesus who was the top dog of them all. If Jesus appointed Peter as Grand Poobah, they would not have asked that question later.


Only one has the "keys," Peter. That pretty much solves the problem.
 
Top