Christians, how does God demonstrate he "loves us", without referencing a human sacrifice...

[Saint Frankenstein]

"that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous." (Matthew 5:45)

"the living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all the things in them. In past generations he permitted all the nations to go on in their ways, although he did not leave himself without witness in that he did good, giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying you with food and filling your hearts with gladness." (Acts 14:15-17)

"so that they would seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us. For by him we have life and move and exist, even as some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also his children." (Acts 17:27,28)

Yes, he created such a lovely universe of suffering (physical, psychological, spiritual, etc.) where life must destroy other life merely to survive (no escaping it, even for you extremist vegans) and limits our potential by restricting us with laws both moral and cosmic/dimensional/physical.

Reminds me, I've been meaning to make a thread asking why it is encumbent upon us to worship the creator(s) just because he/it/they created the cosmos.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Doggonit! Anytime someone tells me about the day and a half of suffering Jesus went through around 2000 years ago I always think about this starving little girl. She was so weak from hunger that she could not crawl away. She was not a Christian and after the vultures ripped her little body to shreds and ate her alive, she is punished in hell and will burn for ever and ever and ever....

Where are you getting that she was ripped apart and eaten by vultures?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Carter

 

[Neo Deist]

Actually, there's no such thing as free will...

According to whom?

 

[InChrist]

Doggonit! Anytime someone tells me about the day and a half of suffering Jesus went through around 2000 years ago I always think about this starving little girl. She was so weak from hunger that she could not crawl away. She was not a Christian and after the vultures ripped her little body to shreds and ate her alive, she is punished in hell and will burn for ever and ever and ever....

First, in the scriptures, there is no indication at all that any child who dies on this earth before they are capable of understanding or rejecting Christ are punished in hell forever and ever. I think the any such child goes immediately to the Presence of the Lord. Secondly, I believe the suffering Jesus endured has an eternal aspect which we in our finite state cannot comprehend.

"Two aspects of the death of Christ show something of the mystery of His death and the suffering He took onto Himself for our sake. The death of Jesus on the cross took but six hours as measured in dynamical time. Jesus was, for the first three hours on the cross, our Great High Priest. From noon till 3 P.M., during which time a strange and terrible darkness came over the earth, the High Priest became the Sacrifice.

If we now consider the nature of time and eternity (see Arthur C. Custance, Journey out of Time, Ref. 2) it must surely become clear that what was (for us) three hours' suffering by Jesus in total estrangement from the Father---was for Jesus an event in eternity which never ends. The work of Jesus on the cross, as far as we are concerned, is completely finished. Jesus is not now hanging on a cross. He has been raised from the dead, and sits in heaven, fully in charge of the universe as a resurrected man. One man, one son of Adam, Jesus the Lord is now living in glory and He is in charge of the universe.

But in another sense, if we could step into eternity and view an eternal being such as the Son of God experiencing life---if we could see things from the vantage point of eternity---then we would perceive that a part of the eternal God must suffer forever, outside of time, because of human sin."
http://ldolphin.org/sixhours.html

 

[rusra02]

Yes, he created such a lovely universe of suffering (physical, psychological, spiritual, etc.) where life must destroy other life merely to survive (no escaping it, even for you extremist vegans) and limits our potential by restricting us with laws both moral and cosmic/dimensional/physical.

Reminds me, I've been meaning to make a thread asking why it is encumbent upon us to worship the creator(s) just because he/it/they created the cosmos.

Most, rather all the suffering that has occurred and is occurring is ultimately man-made, IMO. Our Creator gave humans a perfect start with bright prospects, requiring only that they recognize his Sovereignty. Their rebellion has led to the tragic outcome we see today. (Romans 5:12) Instead of blaming the true God, I think Satan and those who follow him deserve the complete blame.(Deuteronomy 32:4-6) It is, IMO, as Proverbs 19:3 states: "It is a man’s own foolishness that distorts his way, And his heart becomes enraged against Jehovah."

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Most, rather all the suffering that has occurred and is occurring is ultimately man-made, IMO. Our Creator gave humans a perfect start with bright prospects, requiring only that they recognize his Sovereignty. Their rebellion has led to the tragic outcome we see today. (Romans 5:12) Instead of blaming the true God, I think Satan and those who follow him deserve the complete blame.(Deuteronomy 32:4-6) It is, IMO, as Proverbs 19:3 states: "It is a man’s own foolishness that distorts his way, And his heart becomes enraged against Jehovah."

Are you saying that the Fall of Man restructured the entire universe - making it into a violent place where matter breaks down, dies, is destroyed, disease and illness exist, birth defects exist, harmful parasites exist, predation exists, etc.? We really had that large of an effect on the universe?

 

[rusra02]

Are you saying that the Fall of Man restructured the entire universe - making it into a violent place where matter breaks down, dies, is destroyed, disease and illness exist, birth defects exist, harmful parasites exist, predation exists, etc.? We really had that large of an effect on the universe?

On the earth, yes.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

On the earth, yes.

Why do the other lifeforms on Earth have to suffer for our screw up?

 

[Skwim]

According to whom?

Democritus
Bertrand Russell
Phillipa Foot
Lord kelvin
David Hume
William James
Jean Buridan
Nietzsche
Sam Harris, who just came out with the book "Free Will."
And myself, to name a few.

Here are a couple of sites that look at it, The Problem of Free Will and Causal Determinism

 

[OnePointSix18]

I hate to add to this and you have a good point.

What if the girl, before the vultures ate her, said "this is my time to go. Its not say." and they eat her up. Then, because she is a vhild (innocent), wise for her age, and did not "fight back" we should be like that child.
-
Then I thought while I was looking at the crucifix: webare worshiping the "death" of Jesus so we an have life through his death and resurrection. Im....and it dawned on me....Im using the guy.

Thats like my using that child to save myself. Why would I do that? Thats horrible. Its not about my salvation. Its about the child.

In my faith, Buddha would go nuts!

I agree that is what it is exactly like. The entire business of atonement was a practice that preceded Moses and the Hebrews. Ancient humans believed they could appease the gods by sacrificing something. It was quite evident that the gods would take things away from these simple and superstitious people.The gods would wash away their crops in a flood. Conclusion: the gods wanted food, so maybe a sacrifice of grains would please them. When lightning killed someone? Conclusion: The gods were punishing him. When a flood wipes out a village; obviously they are punishing the whole lot of them. In these tribes and all civilizations we always see a leader emerge. He was perceived to have special talent or power over others. Quite naturally these type A's would have a better idea of what the gods want and they then became the early priests, shaman and holy men for the tribe. They concluded that human sacrifice was the ultimate sacrifice needed to stave off these wild and unpredictable retributions from the fickle gods. These holy men convinced the people to sacrifice things they value most and then the gods would be satisfied, and then they won't take away our crops, loved ones or our villages.

About 2,400 BCE there was a Sumerian city named Elba that recorded the practice of picking out two flawless, identical goats for the atonement of their sins. One goat would be set free but the other would be ceremoniously cursed with the sins of the people thrust upon it. It was then sent out into the desert as a sacrifice. This was atonement paid for through the vicarious redemption from sin that would cleanse everyone and free them, like the freed goat. The goat sent into the desert is what we call the Scapegoat. This practice was first verified to have been adopted by the Jews around 400 BCE. This was an adopted response to an extraordinary need to have the temple cleansed and purified, which become Yom Kippur. (http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/features/.premium-1.676794). Once the temple was destroyed in 70 CE, the Jews deductively concluded that another cleansing and purification must have been the reason the temple was destroyed. Jesus was born from a blending of needed answers to the destruction of the temple and a syncretism of a Jewish, Greek, Roman, Syrian and Egyptian religions.
The truth is stranger than the bible!

 

[OnePointSix18]

First, in the scriptures, there is no indication at all that any child who dies on this earth before they are capable of understanding or rejecting Christ are punished in hell forever and ever. I think the any such child goes immediately to the Presence of the Lord. Secondly, I believe the suffering Jesus endured has an eternal aspect which we in our finite state cannot comprehend.

"Two aspects of the death of Christ show something of the mystery of His death and the suffering He took onto Himself for our sake. The death of Jesus on the cross took but six hours as measured in dynamical time. Jesus was, for the first three hours on the cross, our Great High Priest. From noon till 3 P.M., during which time a strange and terrible darkness came over the earth, the High Priest became the Sacrifice.

If we now consider the nature of time and eternity (see Arthur C. Custance, Journey out of Time, Ref. 2) it must surely become clear that what was (for us) three hours' suffering by Jesus in total estrangement from the Father---was for Jesus an event in eternity which never ends. The work of Jesus on the cross, as far as we are concerned, is completely finished. Jesus is not now hanging on a cross. He has been raised from the dead, and sits in heaven, fully in charge of the universe as a resurrected man. One man, one son of Adam, Jesus the Lord is now living in glory and He is in charge of the universe.

But in another sense, if we could step into eternity and view an eternal being such as the Son of God experiencing life---if we could see things from the vantage point of eternity---then we would perceive that a part of the eternal God must suffer forever, outside of time, because of human sin."
http://ldolphin.org/sixhours.html

If she was capable of understanding, what then? Hell?

You said: Secondly, I believe the suffering Jesus endured has an eternal aspect which we in our finite state cannot comprehend.

I agree 100% with you here. I certainly cannot understand it.
You then site support for what you believe. That's admirable. I am so wore out with unsupported, baseless claims. I read the article to get a broader sense of the context for your point. Even though you did show some support for your conclusion you must have totally missed the baseless, subjective and unfalsifiable assertions. I opened the door and there was no floor in the room! Neither you nor Lambert Dolphin provide any reason whatsoever to believe that the story of Jesus is anything other than allegorical fiction. There is no compelling evidence to believe any event in these stories actually happened. There is not even one shred of contemporary evidence for Jesus. There is not a better case for the truth in the saying; Absence of Evidence, is, Evidence of Absence!
Please explain how something can have existence outside of space and time when, space and time are necessary for existence??? This is a nothing more than a case of Special Pleading.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

First, in the scriptures, there is no indication at all that any child who dies on this earth before they are capable of understanding or rejecting Christ are punished in hell forever and ever. I think the any such child goes immediately to the Presence of the Lord. Secondly, I believe the suffering Jesus endured has an eternal aspect which we in our finite state cannot comprehend.

"Two aspects of the death of Christ show something of the mystery of His death and the suffering He took onto Himself for our sake. The death of Jesus on the cross took but six hours as measured in dynamical time. Jesus was, for the first three hours on the cross, our Great High Priest. From noon till 3 P.M., during which time a strange and terrible darkness came over the earth, the High Priest became the Sacrifice.

If we now consider the nature of time and eternity (see Arthur C. Custance, Journey out of Time, Ref. 2) it must surely become clear that what was (for us) three hours' suffering by Jesus in total estrangement from the Father---was for Jesus an event in eternity which never ends. The work of Jesus on the cross, as far as we are concerned, is completely finished. Jesus is not now hanging on a cross. He has been raised from the dead, and sits in heaven, fully in charge of the universe as a resurrected man. One man, one son of Adam, Jesus the Lord is now living in glory and He is in charge of the universe.

But in another sense, if we could step into eternity and view an eternal being such as the Son of God experiencing life---if we could see things from the vantage point of eternity---then we would perceive that a part of the eternal God must suffer forever, outside of time, because of human sin."
http://ldolphin.org/sixhours.html

Do you understand what the OP is getting at?

Regardless the reasons behind the sacrifice (to save humanity; to send His Son; to be among humans.. etc) and regardless the nature of the person being sacrifice (innocent and sin free), the point is this person Jesus is tortured for the sake of humanity and no man (god or not) should need to do that.

That's using the guy. Just because my parent wants me to use her so I can live, that doesn't mean I automatically fall into her hands and say "thank you! thank you! ma for saving my life."

That's what it looks like. A parent came to you and said "I will save you by dying" and instead of thinking of the other person you say, "okay, I need to be saved.. please save me... die please"

Me? Why would I want someone else to die for me if they had a choice to live? If I were married, my wife and I would be fighting over who should save who because we would die for each other but not as a choice as in Jesus but as a necessity if something happens.

With me, using Christ is like using the Child for the expense of his or her death to save myself; that is so, um, wrong.

 

[Neo Deist]

Democritus
Bertrand Russell
Phillipa Foot
Lord kelvin
David Hume
William James
Jean Buridan
Nietzsche
Sam Harris, who just came out with the book "Free Will."
And myself, to name a few.

Here are a couple of sites that look at it, The Problem of Free Will and Causal Determinism

In other words, people's opinion, and for everyone on your list there is an equal list that contradicts it.

I believe in free will, so that is all that matters.

 

[OnePointSix18]

Where are you getting that she was ripped apart and eaten by vultures?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Carter

It was from memory. I read the wiki article and see that (citation needed) it lacks authentication. Nevertheless, the picture-story serves as an allegory to similar real life occurrences. Thanks for taking the time to verify my tale!

 

[Skwim]

In other words, people's opinion,

When you asked "According to whom?" were you actually expecting something other than people who had opinions?

and for everyone on your list there is an equal list that contradicts it.

Equal in numbers perhaps, but not equal in rational. Most people I've seen in favor of free will don't have much more reason than the one you gave: "I believe in free will, so that is all that matters." Whereas those who don't believe in free will have put some effort into coming to their conclusions, if for no other reason than they have had to overcome the almost default belief: free will exists.

 

[Neo Deist]

When you asked "According to whom?" were you actually expecting something other than people who had opinions?

Equal in numbers perhaps, but not equal in rational. Most people I've seen in favor of free will don't have much more reason than the one you gave: "I believe in free will, so that is all that matters." Whereas those who don't believe in free will have put some effort into coming to their conclusions, if for no other reason than they have had to overcome the almost default belief: free will exists.

I am a deist. Our position is one of logic.

No I did not expect anything more than an opinion...which was my point. Your claim was "free will does not exist," yet you can't prove that as it is only your opinion. Therefore your claim is baseless.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Christians, can you reference the bible and demonstrate how God "loves us", without referencing: 1) human sacrifice or, 2) some bible character that just claims God loves us?
What did God ever do that really proves or demonstrates his love. I have been unable to find a single act of love that didn't refer to a human sacrifice or someone just saying that God loves us. I'm not talking about Jesus but the God Jesus prayed to.

It's actually pretty simple. God, if It exists, created the universe for the sole purpose of spawning self-aware creatures which is the basis for an inherent morality. An omnipotent God could do anything else instantly. And this isn't to say that God loves us all. It would stand to reason that God would only love the righteous among us, who are also the only ones who could truly love themselves--when seated in the light of Truth.

 

[OnePointSix18]

It's actually pretty simple. God, if It exists, created the universe for the sole purpose of spawning self-aware creatures which is the basis for an inherent morality. An omnipotent God could do anything else instantly. And this isn't to say that God loves us all. It would stand to reason that God would only love the righteous among us, who are also the only ones who could truly love themselves--when seated in the light of Truth.

You said, "God, if It exists, created the universe for the sole purpose of spawning self-aware creatures which is the basis for an inherent morality". If it exists, what sense data did you use to make that conclusion? Where did you get that information? Would it not be just as likely that we came about naturally, and God made the universe for beings that are more compatible to it's nature in another place?

 

[Skwim]

Your claim was "free will does not exist," yet you can't prove that as it is only your opinion. Therefore your claim is baseless.

Considering the nature of opinion, if something can be proven it no longer qualifies as an opinion, but do you actually think all opinions, no matter what the subject, are baseless? If not then why must my opinion be so?

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

You said, "God, if It exists, created the universe for the sole purpose of spawning self-aware creatures which is the basis for an inherent morality". If it exists, what sense data did you use to make that conclusion? Where did you get that information? Would it not be just as likely that we came about naturally, and God made the universe for beings that are more compatible to it's nature in another place?

Q: For what reason would God not reveal Itself to us, if It exists?
A: In order not to influence our moral/free will decisions. And if God doesn't exist, there's no potential for influence possible.

I don't understand what you're getting at in your last sentence.