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Christians- How do you know Jesus and the Bible are true?

Brian2

Veteran Member
How did you learn about Christ. How did you know Christ wasn’t a false Prophet or the Bible was true? Jews will tell you that you are mistaken. How do you know you are right?

You are confronted with scriptures that show that the Baha'i claims about the Bible are false and you want to move on and change the subject to something that you think you can win a debate on.
I don't think you can win a debate on it because Christians don't deny the OT but Baha'is need to deny the Bible in many places. So it is a matter of the integrity of the scriptures and Baha'u'llah loses that all the time because they deny the integrity of the Bible and only accept the integrity of what Baha'u'llah and other "infallibles" wrote.
 

SDavis

Member
I'm not aware of any contemporary, written, Roman records of Jesus, his life, his trial or his resurrection. There are records of Christians, of some of their beliefs, and their sometimes troublesome behavior, but no first-person accounts.
Accounts of The Man and his life were written by followers and supporters.
 

SDavis

Member
I'm not aware of any contemporary, written, Roman records of Jesus, his life, his trial or his resurrection. There are records of Christians, of some of their beliefs, and their sometimes troublesome behavior, but no first-person accounts.
Accounts of The Man and his life were written by followers and supporters.

Stuck on first person accounts _ Roman records of Roman records you accept what is written or you don't.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Stuck on first person accounts _ Roman records of Roman records you accept what is written or you don't.
There are Roman records a-plenty -- about Christians. Where are the first person accounts of actual witnesses, that aren't part of the Christian scriptures themselves?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
This is not a great analogy to try to claim a religious teacher in the mid 1800's is the return of the Christ. For one thing, a thief breaking in during the middle of the night, while unexpected and unanticipated, is 100% obvious to everyone who wakes up the next morning to find their homes ransacked!

There is no missing that there was a break in. Unless you wish to say like a comedian once said, "Someone broke into my house last night and replaced everything I own with exact replicas of them!" Right?

If you read those passages in scripture that reference this 2nd coming, it is all in the context of an apocalyptic, cataclysmic event that will come suddenly, but leave absolute devastation in its wake. There won't be any missing that something happened, just like that thief in the middle of night did not go unnoticed the next morning.

I think trying fit a modern day religious teacher claiming to be the 2nd coming of Christ (like so many before and since) into this verse is stretching possibility of interpretations beyond all reasonable understanding.

The analogy was given by Christ.

The devastation of the apocalypse is that men’s souls have turned away from God. We will all die one day physically but what the Bible is referring to is the devastation of spiritual death left by the cataclysmic event called materialism and consumerism.

What many fail to appreciate is that the Bible is a spiritual Book about spiritual matters and occurrences. This has caused most Christians to miss Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah all foretold in the Bible in heavenly language.

Reading the Bible like a novel has caused billions of Christians to go astray led by their popes and priests who all interpret the Book in terms of Christian supremacy.

Had Christians been humble and approached the Manifestations of God with extreme humility they would have undoubtedly have seen the Face of Jesus in all of Them but now wander disunited and split into thousands of conflicting sects endlessly repeating the mantra - ‘He will come soon’ .
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
You are confronted with scriptures that show that the Baha'i claims about the Bible are false and you want to move on and change the subject to something that you think you can win a debate on.
I don't think you can win a debate on it because Christians don't deny the OT but Baha'is need to deny the Bible in many places. So it is a matter of the integrity of the scriptures and Baha'u'llah loses that all the time because they deny the integrity of the Bible and only accept the integrity of what Baha'u'llah and other "infallibles" wrote.

How did you come to believe in Jesus? What convinced you He is true? What convinced you the Bible is true? Please explain to us what caused you to accept Jesus and the Bible? What criteria did you use in deciding Christ and the Bible were true?

As a Baha’i I uphold and defend the Bible and Christ and so does Baha’u’llah so I don’t know what you’re talking about.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
How did you come to believe in Jesus? What convinced you He is true? What convinced you the Bible is true? Please explain to us what caused you to accept Jesus and the Bible? What criteria did you use in deciding Christ and the Bible were true?

As a Baha’i I uphold and defend the Bible and Christ and so does Baha’u’llah so I don’t know what you’re talking about.

I was brought up as a Catholic and left that and did some looking around but felt that the story of Jesus is the truth and nothings shows me any different since.
As a Baha'i you claim to uphold and and defend the Bible and Christ, and you might think that is what you are doing, but you have been deceived by a false Christ and false prophet.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The analogy was given by Christ.

The devastation of the apocalypse is that men’s souls have turned away from God. We will all die one day physically but what the Bible is referring to is the devastation of spiritual death left by the cataclysmic event called materialism and consumerism.
If you mean to say that the thief in the night metaphor is somehow referring to modern American consumerism, of which they had no notion of back then, and had no relevance to anyone before us in history, then why did you apply it to Bahualla as the 2nd coming of Christ?

No, these references to the apocalypse in Jewish and Christian literature of the day was referring to something very specific, not just what happens to everyone after they die and come to realize they had lost out on a spiritual life while they were alive. It's about events of this world. Try applying the following to either of the two different applications of the metaphor you have tried to make it say:

But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.

For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.
That's just a smattering of the apocalyptic language from the Bible, and the authors were always referring to the destruction of world they lived in, like the prophets of old, like Jeremiah when he said of the coming destruction of Israel as a nation, "Alas! That day is so great there is none like it; it is a time of distress for Jacob; yet he shall be saved out of it."

The thief in the night metaphor is always referring to this sudden, abrupt, and violent event that will happen upon the world as a whole. Bahaullah is not that "thief in the night", and if he was, then he'd be more the angel of death, the herald of the destruction of the world. Is that how you view him?

What many fail to appreciate is that the Bible is a spiritual Book about spiritual matters and occurrences.
It's more than that. There are definitely cultural beliefs and values of the time that are reflected on its pages as cultural and historical artifacts. Not everything on its pages has hidden, spiritual meanings. A great deal of it is spiritual of course, such as the teachings of Jesus' sermon on the mount. But "women keep silent in the church", is not one of those! That is a cultural artifact and has no spiritual value whatsoever.

Point is, you can't always try to "spiritualize" everything in it. Sometimes a cigar, is just a cigar, and not a hidden symbol of some deeper truth. Trying to take the Jewish expectation of the "Day of the Lord" and apply that to the problem of modern American consumerism, is simply bad hermeneutics.

This has caused most Christians to miss Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah all foretold in the Bible in heavenly language.
Heavenly language? I think what you mean is creative interpretations of vague passages of scripture which ignore historical and cultural contexts. I see the exact same thing with those who try to make the bible authors aware of modern science by saying, "He stood upon the circle of the earth", to mean the prophet had supernatural knowledge that the earth was a globe!

This is just creative license, an extreme license to play with the words to make them fit whatever we want to make it say. I see this not just with the Bible, but with the Koran, with writings of Nostradamus, and anything they want to make it. If you start with the belief there are hidden coded messages in whatever book you have in hand, you literally can make it say anything you want it to!

Reading the Bible like a novel has caused billions of Christians to go astray led by their popes and priests who all interpret the Book in terms of Christian supremacy.
Reading the Bible like it's a supernatural book with hidden truths that only the select few who were chosen by God to be able to decipher them, has also led countless people to go astray and fall prey to their own desires.

Their reading of it to make Christianity the "one true religion" is a misguided as those who read it as a promise of their prophet yet to come in their newer "one true religion". It's really not any different. Sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander.

Had Christians been humble and approached the Manifestations of God with extreme humility they would have undoubtedly have seen the Face of Jesus in all of Them but now wander disunited and split into thousands of conflicting sects endlessly repeating the mantra - ‘He will come soon’ .
And yet, aren't you saying that "we have the real truth that they all missed", exactly the same as each of them?
 
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joelr

Well-Known Member
There is a lot of talk on this forum about evidence and what is and what is not evidence,,,,,,,,,,,,,, especially by atheists and skeptics. It is possible to get so tangled up in what they say and their demand for what they call good evidence that you can start believing they are right and that it is only their sort of evidence that is valid and anything else is not evidence but are claims that need evidence. But that is the road they have gone down and I would not be surprised if it was chosen because they know from the start that it does not lead to faith in God.
For believers faith in God is what is important, it is up there with hope and love. It is good to have rational reasons and evidence for our faith but it is not absolutely necessary. We are people of faith.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.
That does not mean that we should believe when it has been shown to us that our beliefs are wrong.
We usually do struggle to hold on to our beliefs and not just give them up lightly.
I


So says people in Islam, Hinduism with Krishna as their personal deity who they have a relationship with and he answers their prayers because they feel it in their heart.

The fact remains that all of what you say is also evidence for things that you believe are FALSE.


t is amazing how God can supply us with answers we need to keep believing if we keep seeking even as a believer over the years.
Anyway here is an interesting video by Jordan Peterson about how he sees the Bible. It is hard to follow but I think it is worth it to stick with it to the end.


Jordon Peterson does not believe in a literal reading of the NT. He believes in the psychology of having hope and possibly a higher power. He does not believe in a resurrection and told that to Sam Harris.

It is not amazing that God will supply you with any answers. Because the key here is what you said - keep believing and keep seeking. As a Christian to later an atheist I was amazed at how little changed in life. If you seek for answers and have goals eventually you get answers and you meet goals and things come together. When you think it's a deity - Jesus, Krishna, Allah, you just place the credit on that. Even without a supernatural friend this is how things work.
If you are looking for reasons to believe any time you find an apologetic, meet someone like-minded, have something happen you pray for, you count it as a hit for a supernatural parent. Meanwhile you ignore all the misses and your deity cannot lose. It's a win-win of cognative bias.
Sikh, Scientologists, Muslims, Hindu, Christian, all religions do this. So does Law of Attraction people, New Age cults, Power of Positive Thinking people and any sort of modern wu. They all have that same claim. You can read the same stories from them as Christians claim about their experience with faith.
So what separates you from them? The Fatima healing shrines for the Virgin Mary are surrounded by crutches. The healing shrines of the pagan god Asklepios in Turkey and Greece also have many crutches. Neither have prosthetic limbs or witnesses of paraplegics whose lost limbs were restored.
Atheists also find answers, find jobs, have amazing coincidences and have chance meetings that end in careers or a life partner.

So these methods are not evidence. Just as it isn't proof that being an atheist or Hindu is clearly more true. This is all a cognitive bias to force a belief that evidence does not matter.

hat does not mean that we should believe when it has been shown to us that our beliefs are wrong.
We usually do struggle to hold on to our beliefs and not just give them up lightly.

When evidence contradicts a belief then it's time to assess beliefs and ask if they have actual evidence to support them. If you care about believing true things. You should not give up beliefs lightly, you should give them up when they are not supported by evidence. If you care about what is actually true.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Brian2 said:
There is a lot of talk on this forum about evidence and what is and what is not evidence,,,,,,,,,,,,,, especially by atheists and skeptics. It is possible to get so tangled up in what they say and their demand for what they call good evidence that you can start believing they are right and that it is only their sort of evidence that is valid and anything else is not evidence but are claims that need evidence. But that is the road they have gone down and I would not be surprised if it was chosen because they know from the start that it does not lead to faith in God.
For believers faith in God is what is important, it is up there with hope and love. It is good to have rational reasons and evidence for our faith but it is not absolutely necessary. We are people of faith.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.
That does not mean that we should believe when it has been shown to us that our beliefs are wrong.
We usually do struggle to hold on to our beliefs and not just give them up lightly.
Calling an emotion evidence doesn't make it so. Calling a mathematics error logic doesn't make it so.
There is a formal system to logical reasoning. It's not just a technique fashionable among intellectuals.
Much of what religious apologists cite as evidence simply is not evidence. It really does contain errors, factual or logical.
There is no such thing as "evidence for me."

Our objections are not a conceit on our part. They're not just our opinions. You're making actual, objective errors. Your conclusions really are not valid, if not outright wrong.
There is no such thing as "evidence for me."
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I was brought up as a Catholic and left that and did some looking around but felt that the story of Jesus is the truth and nothings shows me any different since.
As a Baha'i you claim to uphold and and defend the Bible and Christ, and you might think that is what you are doing, but you have been deceived by a false Christ and false prophet.

Then if I am wrong God will judge me accordingly but I accept that Jesus is the truth and the Bible the Word of God. I deny nothing.

However IF Baha’u’llah is Christ returned in the Glory of the Father, those who reject Him have rejected Christ as well as He spoke of Baha’u’llah.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
If you mean to say that the thief in the night metaphor is somehow referring to modern American consumerism, of which they had no notion of back then, and had no relevance to anyone before us in history, then why did you apply it to Bahualla as the 2nd coming of Christ?

No, these references to the apocalypse in Jewish and Christian literature of the day was referring to something very specific, not just what happens to everyone after they die and come to realize they had lost out on a spiritual life while they were alive. It's about events of this world. Try applying the following to either of the two different applications of the metaphor you have tried to make it say:

But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.

For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.
That's just a smattering of the apocalyptic language from the Bible, and the authors were always referring to the destruction of world they lived in, like the prophets of old, like Jeremiah when he said of the coming destruction of Israel as a nation, "Alas! That day is so great there is none like it; it is a time of distress for Jacob; yet he shall be saved out of it."

The thief in the night metaphor is always referring to this sudden, abrupt, and violent event that will happen upon the world as a whole. Bahaullah is not that "thief in the night", and if he was, then he'd be more the angel of death, the herald of the destruction of the world. Is that how you view him?


It's more than that. There are definitely cultural beliefs and values of the time that are reflected on its pages as cultural and historical artifacts. Not everything on its pages has hidden, spiritual meanings. A great deal of it is spiritual of course, such as the teachings of Jesus' sermon on the mount. But "women keep silent in the church", is not one of those! That is a cultural artifact and has no spiritual value whatsoever.

Point is, you can't always try to "spiritualize" everything in it. Sometimes a cigar, is just a cigar, and not a hidden symbol of some deeper truth. Trying to take the Jewish expectation of the "Day of the Lord" and apply that to the problem of modern American consumerism, is simply bad hermeneutics.


Heavenly language? I think what you mean is creative interpretations of vague passages of scripture which ignore historical and cultural contexts. I see the exact same thing with those who try to make the bible authors aware of modern science by saying, "He stood upon the circle of the earth", to mean the prophet had supernatural knowledge that the earth was a globe!

This is just creative license, an extreme license to play with the words to make them fit whatever we want to make it say. I see this not just with the Bible, but with the Koran, with writings of Nostradamus, and anything they want to make it. If you start with the belief there are hidden coded messages in whatever book you have in hand, you literally can make it say anything you want it to!


Reading the Bible like it's a supernatural book with hidden truths that only the select few who were chosen by God to be able to decipher them, has also led countless people to go astray and fall prey to their own desires.

Their reading of it to make Christianity the "one true religion" is a misguided as those who read it as a promise of their prophet yet to come in their newer "one true religion". It's really not any different. Sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander.


And yet, aren't you saying that "we have the real truth that they all missed", exactly the same as each of them?

Not exactly. We are saying to people not to be closed minded and prejudiced but accept that there is truth in all religions not just one or two but all of them. The connection between religions is that they all teach virtues and to be of good character.

We say Jesus is true and so is Buddha and Krishna and that none are superior to another.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
This has caused most Christians to miss Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah all foretold in the Bible in heavenly language.
And what are those Bible verses that Baha'is believe foretell Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. The only one I remember is the "Three Woes". Which other ones?

Then if I am wrong God will judge me accordingly but I accept that Jesus is the truth and the Bible the Word of God. I deny nothing.

However IF Baha’u’llah is Christ returned in the Glory of the Father, those who reject Him have rejected Christ as well as He spoke of Baha’u’llah.
Well someone's wrong. Baha'is are not talking about the same Jesus that born-again Christians believe in. Describe the Jesus you believe in. What did he do, and what did he say? Are the gospels accurate in what they say about the things Jesus did? Like walking on water and raising Lazarus from the dead?

We say Jesus is true and so is Buddha and Krishna and that none are superior to another.
What do you believe is true about any of them? I already asked about Jesus and how accurate the gospels stories are about describing the things he said and did. But what about Buddha and Krishna? What do we know about their lives and teachings? Which Scriptures do you believe are true and accurate about them? I have never heard a Baha'i say that any Hindu or Buddhist Scripture is true. Are there? If not, then what do we really know about them? What Baha'u'llah said about them? Which was what? I was under the impression that he never mentioned either of them in his writings. Is that true?

We are saying to people not to be closed minded and prejudiced but accept that there is truth in all religions not just one or two but all of them. The connection between religions is that they all teach virtues and to be of good character.
To accept that there is some truth is a lot different than accepting the religion as being true. Do Baha'is believe that some things in the other religions are false? And do Baha'is believe that some religions have believed in and worshipped false Gods and followed false prophets? Because the Bible says that some people did follow false Gods and false religions. Do Baha'is agree?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
No. You have inserted the B.man into Christ's analogy.

Just like Christians ‘inserted’ Christ into the Old Testament?

Just as the Greek for ‘Anointed One’ means Christ, the Arabic for ‘Glory of God’ means Baha’u’llah. Both are in the Old and New Testament. Baha’is accept both.

Many churches around the world are dedicated to the Glory of God and they haven’t yet realised that translated into Arabic it says Baha’u’llah.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Do they have a problem with rejection?

I think so there is a tradition of Christians rejecting Christians and prejudice against people of other Faiths but there are many accepting Christians also who do not judge others beliefs and to me they are the true Christians.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Calling an emotion evidence doesn't make it so. Calling a mathematics error logic doesn't make it so.
There is a formal system to logical reasoning. It's not just a technique fashionable among intellectuals.
Much of what religious apologists cite as evidence simply is not evidence. It really does contain errors, factual or logical.
There is no such thing as "evidence for me."
Our objections are not a conceit on our part. They're not just our opinions. You're making actual, objective errors. Your conclusions really are not valid, if not outright wrong.
There is no such thing as "evidence for me."

There are things that I see as evidence for God and Jesus and you do not.
There is evidence that can satisfy faith but cannot formally prove anything.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Just like Christians ‘inserted’ Christ into the Old Testament?

Just as the Greek for ‘Anointed One’ means Christ, the Arabic for ‘Glory of God’ means Baha’u’llah. Both are in the Old and New Testament. Baha’is accept both.

Many churches around the world are dedicated to the Glory of God and they haven’t yet realised that translated into Arabic it says Baha’u’llah.
It doesn't count much when the Bible and NT use the term "the Glory of God" and thousands of years later a Persian man takes the title "The Glory of God" and says "See, my name is al over the Bible and NT." But what significance does The Glory of God have in Hinduism and Buddhism? And I know there is a guy calling himself The Maitreya. Because he calls himself that, does that make him the Maitreya Buddha?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There are things that I see as evidence for God and Jesus and you do not.
There is evidence that can satisfy faith but cannot formally prove anything.
OK, now this is reasonable. Faith is personal, and a lower bar, epistemically.
 
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