Christianity Today

[nPeace]

We know that Peter was a follower of Christ, and one of the pillars and support of the truth, taught by the Christ.
Thus, when the name "Christian" was first coined - Not as a name pinned on them by the people, but divinely directed (See χρηματίζω - chrématizó) - we can rightly refer to the apostles and other disciples as Christian... in the true sense of the word - true Christians.

However, in his second letter, particularly the second part - Chapter two (2 Peter 2), Peter explained how Christianity would appear to have two faces. One face - the corrupt and hideous - would make the other - the pure and innocent - appear distorted and insincere, or bogus.

It is noteworthy, that Peter's letters were written about 30 years after the death of Christ, and his authorship of these letters has early and strong support.

This thread is designed, not for the purpose of bashing any group, but rather to allow us to take an unbiased, honest look at Christianity today, through unclouded lens.
It can help us to consider honestly, our own position, in relation to Peter's words... especially since he gave serious condemnatory judgment.
Feel free to express your views, on what changes might be necessary to be in line with Christianity in the time of Peter.
I think it can be a good learning experience for us.

2 Peter 2:1-3
However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you.
These will quietly bring in destructive sects, and they will even disown the owner who bought them...
Furthermore, many will follow their brazen conduct, and because of them the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively.
Also, they will greedily exploit you with counterfeit words.

2 Peter 2:13-15
They consider it pleasurable to indulge in luxurious living, even in the daytime.
They are spots and blemishes who revel in their deceptive teachings while feasting together with you.
Their eyes are full of adultery and are unable to desist from sin, and they entice unstable ones.
They have a heart trained in greed.
Abandoning the straight path, they have been led astray. They have followed the path of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the reward of wrongdoing...

2 Peter 2:18, 19
They make high-sounding statements that are empty. By appealing to the desires of the flesh and with acts of brazen conduct, they entice people who have just escaped from those who live in error.
While they are promising them freedom, they themselves are slaves of corruption...

Which Christian group(s) do you find fit any of the above highlighted identifying marks of apostate, or corrupt Christianity?

One must be able to prove beyond a shadow of doubt, that the "sect of Christianity" under scrutiny or accusations, truly match the "crime(s)".
In other words, don't just spew baseless opinions and stick out that you are right. You must prove how they contrast Christianity followed by the early followers of Christ (Peter, James, John, Paul, etc.).

So that you get a feel of what I mean, I will start off.

 

[nPeace]

BRAZEN CONDUCT

Crusades
The Crusades were a series of religious wars [sanctioned by the Latin Church - the largest particular church of the Catholic Church] between Christians and Muslims started primarily to secure control of holy sites considered sacred by both groups. In all, eight major Crusade expeditions occurred between 1096 and 1291. The bloody, violent and often ruthless conflicts propelled the status of European Christians, making them major players in the fight for land in the Middle East.

First Crusade
The original idea for the First Crusade that had been preached by Pope Urban II at the Council of Clermont in 1095 had already turned into a much different popular movement, the People's Crusade, led by Peter the Hermit. Peter's preaching of the Crusade spread much more quickly than the official versions of Urban's call. Peter's version influenced Emicho, who spread his own story that Christ had appeared to him. Infused with the teachings of the Gospel of Luke he felt chosen to fulfill the "end of times" prophecy. Emicho envisioned that he would march on Constantinople and overcome the forces there, taking over the title of "last World Emperor" in accordance with canonical prophetic tradition. All Christian armies, Latin and Greek, would then unite and march to seize Jerusalem from the Saracens thus prompting the Second Coming and denouement with the Antichrist. Inspired by such exulting promises, a few thousand Franks and Germans merged and marched east in April 1096.
Rhineland massacres

Albert of Aachen vividly described the nature of the massacre, with thousands of crusaders descending upon the hall in Ruthard’s palace in which the Jews were sheltering, “breaking the bolts and doors” and proceeding to indiscriminately massacre any Jew they found, regardless of age or sex. Using swords, arrows, and lances, the mob killed approximately 1,100 Jews in a systematic way over the next two days, leaving only a few survivors who either managed to escape the massacre or agreed under duress to convert to Christianity. The Jewish historian Solomon Bar-Simson provides similar descriptions of the violence. Both chroniclers also note the prevalence of mass suicide by the besieged Jews, who preferred to take their own lives rather than be killed or forcibly converted by the crusaders.

This is certainly a twisted view of Christianity, imagined by individuals. Does everyone agree?
Jesus and his apostles did not teach, or engage in such brazen conduct. Rather, they were involved in teaching and preaching the message of the good news to all, including their opposers, and enemies. Their taught and acted in love, not war.
The apostle Paul said, (2 Corinthians 10:4) "For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things."
They knew that they were in a spiritual fight, but they understood that it did not involve physical weapons, as their exemplar Christ Jesus taught.

(Matthew 26:52) . . .Then Jesus said to him: “Return your sword to its place, for all those who take up the sword will perish by the sword.

Spoiler: ...and today...

The Gendarmerie Corps of Vatican City State is the gendarmerie, or police and security force, of Vatican City and the extraterritorial properties of the Holy See.

The Gendarmerie is equipped with the Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol in 9 mm Parabellum as the standard-issue weapon.
They also have more powerful weapons, such as the Beretta M12 and the Heckler & Koch MP5 sub-machine gun, a weapon also used by the Italian police. Against possible riots, they are supplied with batons, tasers, pepper sprays and tear gas. For the elite-unit Rapid Intervention Group (GIR), members are equipped with the Carbon 15 carbine and Heckler & Koch FABARM FP6 shotguns. In June 2018, it was reported that the Gendarmerie would be adding tasers to their armoury.

Why?

 

[nPeace]

GREED
This is from the Pope himself, so I think he would be the best person to know if his "fur is tick infested".

I think we all agree with him, right?
However, why do you think these "ticks" have infested the Vatican - a 110 acres sovereign state?
If the Pope really wants the infestation to end, as he claims...

Do you think the system (Vatican City) needs to disappear, and be replaced by the Gospels?
Would those on the receiving end of the Pope's stinging message - Pope Francis Blasts Vatican Hypocrisy Ouch - be saying to themselves, "Perhaps he needs to extract the log from his eye."? Matthew 7:1-5
I think that would help. Many think the Pope is just 'Trying to look good'.
What do you think?

Vatican City is an independent city-state enclaved within Rome, Italy.
The Vatican City is an ecclesiastical or sacerdotal-monarchical state (a type of theocracy) ruled by the pope who is the bishop of Rome and head of the Roman Catholic Church. The highest state functionaries are all Catholic clergy of various national origins.

Spoiler: More...

Since the return of the popes from Avignon in 1377, they have generally resided at the Apostolic Palace within what is now Vatican City, although at times residing instead in the Quirinal Palace in Rome or elsewhere.

The Holy See dates back to early Christianity, and is the primate episcopal see of the Catholic Church, with 1.3 billion Catholic Christians around the world distributed in the Latin Church and 23 Eastern Catholic Churches. The independent Vatican City-state, on the other hand, came into existence on 11 February 1929 by the Lateran Treaty between the Holy See and Italy, which spoke of it as a new creation, not as a vestige of the much larger Papal States (756–1870), which had previously encompassed much of central Italy.

Within the Vatican City are religious and cultural sites such as St. Peter's Basilica, the Sistine Chapel and the Vatican Museums. They feature some of the world's most famous paintings and sculptures. The unique economy of Vatican City is supported financially by the sale of postage stamps and souvenirs, fees for admission to museums, and sales of publications.

Is this keeping separate from the world, or is this luxurious living off this world?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

We know that Peter was a follower of Christ, and one of the pillars and support of the truth, taught by the Christ.
Thus, when the name "Christian" was first coined - Not as a name pinned on them by the people, but divinely directed (See χρηματίζω - chrématizó) - we can rightly refer to the apostles and other disciples as Christian... in the true sense of the word - true Christians.
However, in his second letter, particularly the second part - Chapter two (2 Peter 2), Peter explained how Christianity would appear to have two faces. One face - the corrupt and hideous - would make the other - the pure and innocent - appear distorted and insincere, or bogus.
It is noteworthy, that Peter's letters were written about 30 years after the death of Christ, and his authorship of these letters has early and strong support.
This thread is designed, not for the purpose of bashing any group, but rather to allow us to take an unbiased, honest look at Christianity today, through unclouded lens.
It can help us to consider honestly, our own position, in relation to Peter's words... especially since he gave serious condemnatory judgment.
Feel free to express your views, on what changes might be necessary to be in line with Christianity in the time of Peter.
I think it can be a good learning experience for us.
2 Peter 2:1-3
However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you.
These will quietly bring in destructive sects, and they will even disown the owner who bought them...
Furthermore, many will follow their brazen conduct, and because of them the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively.
Also, they will greedily exploit you with counterfeit words.
2 Peter 2:13-15
They consider it pleasurable to indulge in luxurious living, even in the daytime.
They are spots and blemishes who revel in their deceptive teachings while feasting together with you.
Their eyes are full of adultery and are unable to desist from sin, and they entice unstable ones.
They have a heart trained in greed.
Abandoning the straight path, they have been led astray. They have followed the path of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the reward of wrongdoing...
2 Peter 2:18, 19
They make high-sounding statements that are empty. By appealing to the desires of the flesh and with acts of brazen conduct, they entice people who have just escaped from those who live in error.
While they are promising them freedom, they themselves are slaves of corruption...
Which Christian group(s) do you find fit any of the above highlighted identifying marks of apostate, or corrupt Christianity?
One must be able to prove beyond a shadow of doubt, that the "sect of Christianity" under scrutiny or accusations, truly match the "crime(s)".
In other words, don't just spew baseless opinions and stick out that you are right. You must prove how they contrast Christianity followed by the early followers of Christ (Peter, James, John, Paul, etc.).
So that you get a feel of what I mean, I will start off.

First of all, I find that the apostasy started when the first century ended - Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30.
Thus, ' Christendom ' ( so-called Christian, but mostly in name only ) started after the first century ended.
In Jesus' New commandment found at John 13:34-35 Jesus says how to identify the pure or real religion.
Jesus' genuine 'wheat' or 'sheep' followers would display the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has.
Instead of love neighbor as oneself, Now love neighbor ' more ' than self.

 

[74x12]

GREED
This is from the Pope himself, so I think he would be the best person to know if his "fur is tick infested".

I think we all agree with him, right?
However, why do you think these "ticks" have infested the Vatican - a 110 acres sovereign state?
If the Pope really wants the infestation to end, as he claims...

Do you think the system (Vatican City) needs to disappear, and be replaced by the Gospels?
Would those on the receiving end of the Pope's stinging message - Pope Francis Blasts Vatican Hypocrisy Ouch - be saying to themselves, "Perhaps he needs to extract the log from his eye."? Matthew 7:1-5
I think that would help. Many think the Pope is just 'Trying to look good'.
What do you think?

Vatican City is an independent city-state enclaved within Rome, Italy.
The Vatican City is an ecclesiastical or sacerdotal-monarchical state (a type of theocracy) ruled by the pope who is the bishop of Rome and head of the Roman Catholic Church. The highest state functionaries are all Catholic clergy of various national origins.

Spoiler: More...

Since the return of the popes from Avignon in 1377, they have generally resided at the Apostolic Palace within what is now Vatican City, although at times residing instead in the Quirinal Palace in Rome or elsewhere.

The Holy See dates back to early Christianity, and is the primate episcopal see of the Catholic Church, with 1.3 billion Catholic Christians around the world distributed in the Latin Church and 23 Eastern Catholic Churches. The independent Vatican City-state, on the other hand, came into existence on 11 February 1929 by the Lateran Treaty between the Holy See and Italy, which spoke of it as a new creation, not as a vestige of the much larger Papal States (756–1870), which had previously encompassed much of central Italy.

Within the Vatican City are religious and cultural sites such as St. Peter's Basilica, the Sistine Chapel and the Vatican Museums. They feature some of the world's most famous paintings and sculptures. The unique economy of Vatican City is supported financially by the sale of postage stamps and souvenirs, fees for admission to museums, and sales of publications.

Is this keeping separate from the world, or is this luxurious living off this world?

The Pope is the one who allows in the idols of Pachamama into catholic churches. Just as the old idolatrous kings of Judah and Israel did to the temple and they paid for it. But arrogant people never learn.

 

[nPeace]

First of all, I find that the apostasy started when the first century ended - Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30.
Thus, ' Christendom ' ( so-called Christian, but mostly in name only ) started after the first century ended.
In Jesus' New commandment found at John 13:34-35 Jesus says how to identify the pure or real religion.
Jesus' genuine 'wheat' or 'sheep' followers would display the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has.
Instead of love neighbor as oneself, Now love neighbor ' more ' than self.

Yes. Love as opposed to war... which Jesus never taught.
The apostasy did start later, but Peter identified aspects of it, that would start to grow before becoming full blown.

 

[nPeace]

The Pope is the one who allows in the idols of Pachamama into catholic churches. Just as the old idolatrous kings of Judah and Israel did to the temple and they paid for it. But arrogant people never learn.

So you suggest that the Pope should start with removing the idols, and teach what Jesus taught? I agree. That would be a start to help people take worship as seriously as the apostles did.
They did preach strongly against idols -
(Acts 15:20) . . .but to write them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from what is strangled, and from blood.

(Acts 17:16, 17) 16 Now while Paul was waiting for them in Athens, his spirit within him became irritated on seeing that the city was full of idols. 17 So he began to reason in the synagogue with the Jews and the other people who worshiped God and every day in the marketplace with those who happened to be on hand.

If it irritated Paul, and the apostles put that on top of the list of things to keep free of, then surely Christians today should feel the same.

 

[Sand Dancer]

We know that Peter was a follower of Christ, and one of the pillars and support of the truth, taught by the Christ.
Thus, when the name "Christian" was first coined - Not as a name pinned on them by the people, but divinely directed (See χρηματίζω - chrématizó) - we can rightly refer to the apostles and other disciples as Christian... in the true sense of the word - true Christians.

However, in his second letter, particularly the second part - Chapter two (2 Peter 2), Peter explained how Christianity would appear to have two faces. One face - the corrupt and hideous - would make the other - the pure and innocent - appear distorted and insincere, or bogus.

It is noteworthy, that Peter's letters were written about 30 years after the death of Christ, and his authorship of these letters has early and strong support.

This thread is designed, not for the purpose of bashing any group, but rather to allow us to take an unbiased, honest look at Christianity today, through unclouded lens.
It can help us to consider honestly, our own position, in relation to Peter's words... especially since he gave serious condemnatory judgment.
Feel free to express your views, on what changes might be necessary to be in line with Christianity in the time of Peter.
I think it can be a good learning experience for us.

2 Peter 2:1-3
However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you.
These will quietly bring in destructive sects, and they will even disown the owner who bought them...
Furthermore, many will follow their brazen conduct, and because of them the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively.
Also, they will greedily exploit you with counterfeit words.

2 Peter 2:13-15
They consider it pleasurable to indulge in luxurious living, even in the daytime.
They are spots and blemishes who revel in their deceptive teachings while feasting together with you.
Their eyes are full of adultery and are unable to desist from sin, and they entice unstable ones.
They have a heart trained in greed.
Abandoning the straight path, they have been led astray. They have followed the path of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the reward of wrongdoing...

2 Peter 2:18, 19
They make high-sounding statements that are empty. By appealing to the desires of the flesh and with acts of brazen conduct, they entice people who have just escaped from those who live in error.
While they are promising them freedom, they themselves are slaves of corruption...

Which Christian group(s) do you find fit any of the above highlighted identifying marks of apostate, or corrupt Christianity?

One must be able to prove beyond a shadow of doubt, that the "sect of Christianity" under scrutiny or accusations, truly match the "crime(s)".
In other words, don't just spew baseless opinions and stick out that you are right. You must prove how they contrast Christianity followed by the early followers of Christ (Peter, James, John, Paul, etc.).

So that you get a feel of what I mean, I will start off.

Prosperity Gospel.

 

[Deeje]

@nPeace it seems amazing to me that the Bible is so specific that the great apostasy foretold by Jesus and the apostles (which was brewing even as the first century drew to a close,) still goes unrecognized by the masses who profess faith and belief in Jesus Christ. They behave as if it never happened....and that their unchristian doctrines and practices somehow have God's approval.....the Jewish leaders fell for the same delusion in the first century.

When the so-called "Christians" from the second century began departing from the true teachings of Jesus Christ and began to substitute the doctrines of men (just as Judaism had done before it) it should have been a wake up call....but gradualism is sneaky.....little by little these departures went either unnoticed or it wasn't considered important that these things were introduced, after all they held the masses in ignorance, never allowing the common people access to the Bible. They never knew what should be there, and what shouldn't.

The biggest wake up call of all should have been the corruption that inevitably comes with power. The Church held a position higher than any king. (Revelation 17:15-18)
Advocating bloodshed in the name of Christ and waving banners with a pagan cross on them was not "Christian" in any manner shape or form. That was proof positive that their actions were anything but Christian.

The moment that sanctioned bloodshed, and false religious practices and beliefs entered the church....it is safe to say that Christ left the building.

 

[nPeace]

@nPeace it seems amazing to me that the Bible is so specific that the great apostasy foretold by Jesus and the apostles (which was brewing even as the first century drew to a close,) still goes unrecognized by the masses who profess faith and belief in Jesus Christ. They behave as if it never happened....and that their unchristian doctrines and practices somehow have God's approval.....the Jewish leaders fell for the same delusion in the first century.

When the so-called "Christians" from the second century began departing from the true teachings of Jesus Christ and began to substitute the doctrines of men (just as Judaism had done before it) it should have been a wake up call....but gradualism is sneaky.....little by little these departures went either unnoticed or it wasn't considered important that these things were introduced, after all they held the masses in ignorance, never allowing the common people access to the Bible. They never knew what should be there, and what shouldn't.

The biggest wake up call of all should have been the corruption that inevitably comes with power. The Church held a position higher than any king. (Revelation 17:15-18)
Advocating bloodshed in the name of Christ and waving banners with a pagan cross on them was not "Christian" in any manner shape or form. That was proof positive that their actions were anything but Christian.

The moment that sanctioned bloodshed, and false religious practices and beliefs entered the church....it is safe to say that Christ left the building.

I think I am reading you Deeje.
Let me know if I am reading you loud and clear.

There is no reform for apostate Christianity. I think this is clear from what Peter said, which is in line with what you are saying.
Peter foretold its coming, but its roots were starting to spring. Paul spoke of it at 2 Corinthians 11:12-15, and described these one as deceitful workers, just as Peter did.
So these are men who deliberately set out to mislead. Hence one translation describes their teachings as evil, and says, they make up clever lies and they delight in deception.
That is truly wicked
Peter said, they are destined for destruction.

They knowingly lead persons astray - "With an appeal to twisted sexual desires, they lure back into sin those who have barely escaped from a lifestyle of deception."
So you are right. We can see their wicked works. If we follow them, we have chosen to be their slaves... of unrighteousness.

Not many people pay attention to these things
Vatican City ....is one of the most visited places of worship in the world - bringing in more than 25 million tourists every year.
The Catholic Church, also known as the Roman Catholic Church, is the largest Christian church, with approximately 1.3 billion baptised Catholics worldwide as of 2017.

People would have to leave apparently, if they don't want to be part of corrupt Christianity. Revelation 18:4, 5

 

[Muffled]

2 Peter 2:18, 19
They make high-sounding statements that are empty. By appealing to the desires of the flesh and with acts of brazen conduct, they entice people who have just escaped from those who live in error.
While they are promising them freedom, they themselves are slaves of corruption...

I believe any church today supporting LGBT fits.

I believe they will have high sounding talk about love which sounds great but isn't the love of God.

I believe the LGBT community is very much into the fleshly desires.

I believe some churches think that if a person is a Christian then anything goes. The truth is that if a person were a real Christian and not a nominal one then He would obey Jesus.

 

[Muffled]

Yes. Love as opposed to war... which Jesus never taught.
The apostasy did start later, but Peter identified aspects of it, that would start to grow before becoming full blown.

I believe Jesus did teach about war. And remember the same God of the OT is also in Jesus.

 

[Muffled]

Prosperity Gospel.

3John 1:2 Beloved, I pray that all may go well with you and that you may be in good health, as it goes well with your soul.

 

[nPeace]

2 Peter 2:18, 19
They make high-sounding statements that are empty. By appealing to the desires of the flesh and with acts of brazen conduct, they entice people who have just escaped from those who live in error.
While they are promising them freedom, they themselves are slaves of corruption...

I believe any church today supporting LGBT fits.

I believe they will have high sounding talk about love which sounds great but isn't the love of God.

I believe the LGBT community is very much into the fleshly desires.

I believe some churches think that if a person is a Christian then anything goes. The truth is that if a person were a real Christian and not a nominal one then He would obey Jesus.

When you say supporting LGBT, can you give an example, or explain what you mean?

I believe Jesus did teach about war. And remember the same God of the OT is also in Jesus.

Can you point out where exactly in scripture Jesus taught about war?
We are discussing Christianity from the first century, so we cannot include the O.T.

 

[Sand Dancer]

3John 1:2 Beloved, I pray that all may go well with you and that you may be in good health, as it goes well with your soul.

That's different than thinking Yahweh is going to make you rich.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yes. Love as opposed to war... which Jesus never taught.
The apostasy did start later, but Peter identified aspects of it, that would start to grow before becoming full blown.

Yes, by example Jesus taught to be neutral in world affairs.
Jesus and his 1st-century followers did Not even get involved in the issues of the day between the Jews and Romans.
Christian armor would now be spiritual armor as listed at Ephesians 6:11-17.
No carnal weapons as per 2 Corinthians 10:3-4.
Christians would walk by faith and Not by sighted things - 2 Corinthians 5:7

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That's different than thinking Yahweh is going to make you rich.

False clergy may preach about God going to make one $$$$$ rich or wealthy.
Whereas Yahweh ( the God of the Bible ) makes people spiritually rich.
Rich spiritually by applying the fruitage of God's spirit as listed at Galatians 5:22-23.
Jesus promised life's necessary things when Bible principles govern one's life at Matthew 6:33-34

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Prosperity Gospel.

I find the ' prosperity gospel ' is quite different from the ' good news gospel ' Jesus instructed at Matthew 24:14
The good news gospel of Daniel 2:44 that God's kingdom ( thy kingdom come..... ) is the coming solution.
The coming ' prosperity ' under Jesus' 1,000-year reign over Earth as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.