Christianity - Has it been a net gain or loss in world history?

[Draka]

Still, it's also the religion that gave us Innocent III, the Borgias, Cardinal Richelieu, Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Kent Hovind, Padre Pio, Jonathan Edwards, Benny Hinn, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Benedict XVI, James Dobson, Hal Lindsey, Luis Palau, Rod Parsley, Nikon of Moscow, Lee Strobel, the Ustaše, the Iron Guard, the Dark Ages, the Crusades, the Inquisition, witch hunts, the Spanish Conquest, the Thirty Years' War, the Holocaust, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, missionaries, the Index of Prohibited Books, the Traditional Values Coalition, Creation Science, Pius IX, Fred Phelps, Charles Coughlin, George W. Bush, the Defense of Marriage Act, John Paulk, Bill Bright, Tim LaHaye, Ian Paisley, the Southern Baptist Convention, Stephen Harper, Keith Hay, John Hagee, Phyllis Schafly, Randall Terry, Bill Donohue, Gary North, Anita Bryant, the Ku Klux Klan, and Jack Chick.

You forgot "caused the Black Plague"

 

[Mister Emu]

Also from your article:

The Catholic Church, being the only institution to survive the process, maintained what was left of intellectual strength, especially through monasticism

 

[Smoke]

Also from your article:

The Catholic Church, being the only institution to survive the process, maintained what was left of intellectual strength, especially through monasticism

They might have said "what little was left"; what the article fails to mention is that the Christians of Western Europe were for the most part illiterate clods compared to Eastern Christians, Muslims, or their own Jewish neighbors.

I wonder if you'd have so much trouble seeing the degeneracy of the Church as the degeneracy of education? How like Dark Ages Catholicism would you like your church to be?

 

[Smoke]

You forgot "caused the Black Plague"

Well, Christianity didn't cause the Black Death, but I might have mentioned that Christians as often as not blamed the Jews for starting it.

 

[EtuMalku]

I voted yes it was a gain
Because, without it we would not know what Evil is
I see Christianity as deceptive and Evil

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

"The libralisation of Christianity has done much to redress the balance in recent years and is likely to increasingly do so in the future."

Actually, liberal Chrristianity is much on the decline, check out the enrollment of liberal denominations like the Presbyterians, they're definitely having a hard time staying afloat. There is pronounced conservative trend in Christianity, I believe largely because it feels threatened.

reactionary conservative thought certainly gains ground when certainties are under attack. as seen in the resurgence of many fundamentalist religions.

How ever Change in this world is inevitable and should be welcomed,as the alternative is inevitable failure.

Christianity is undergoing change and loss of followers as a whole. This is as true of Catholics as it is of Anglicans. Its death is greatly exaggerated. Popularist Christianity
is taking some of the slack.
The Faith will re-emerge in due time, changed in style, but closer to the liberal values taught by Jesus, and better understood by modern man.

 

[Draka]

Well, Christianity didn't cause the Black Death, but I might have mentioned that Christians as often as not blamed the Jews for starting it.

In a way, Christians did. During the "witch hunts" the Malleus Malificarum also ordered that cats be killed as they were considered to be the familiars of witches and a way for the witches to communicate with Satan. So hundreds of cats were killed at this time. It was cats that kept the rat population in check during an already dirty time. Hygiene was not good during that time and you take away the cats, which were the only thing preventing the rats from spreading disease, and you have inadvertantly caused the spread of the Black Plague.

 

[rojse]

I voted yes it was a gain
Because, without it we would not know what Evil is
I see Christianity as deceptive and Evil

Many other cultures have ideas on good and evil, even many other religions.

I do not see how Christianity is unique in that regard.

 

[yossarian22]

Many other cultures have ideas on good and evil, even many other religions.

I do not see how Christianity is unique in that regard.

I think he is saying without Christianity, we would not know what true evil was.

 

[BUDDY]

I would offer that Christianity as both a religion and/or a "policy", (instead) exemplifies an unadulterated failure in achieving either it's own claimed peaceful purposes, or as an effective agent of beneficent change in advancing the human condition as a whole.

Even when you consider the humanitarian efforts performed by non-profit organizations begun by christian churches and christian based organizations? The amount of money donated privately by christians for relief efforts is staggering and shows the kindness and generosity that we are capable of. History is full of stories of people whose selfless actions helped other, many of whom are called saints today. Then there are people like Mother Teresa, whose example of selflessness and love for the less fortunate inspired millions (both christian and non-christian) to have the same attitude. That is just one example. Since the fondation of the church there have been such examples both of those who have are directly identified with the christianity, and those who have done great things, and happen to be christians and the principles of christianity directed their actions.

After 2000 years, we can reflect upon the apparent advances in humanistic culture, awareness, understanding, compassion, and generosity...versus the humanistic inherencies of greed, lust, ignorance, desire, want, suspicion, and hate.

Has Christianity as either [an] organized religion, or as some instrument of personalized perspective/worldview...managed to eliminate ANY of these negative (or "bad") traits?

In the entire world? No, it hasn't. In all fairness though, it never claimed that it would, however it should have in its' followers and I would argue that in a vast majority it has. For the most part, christians do not identify with these things. Have there been some who have done these things? Absolutely, but I don't think that when a majority of people think of christianity, they immediately think greed, lust, ignorance, desire, want, suspicion and hate.

Are "people" ANY better [a] people, than they were 2000 years ago?

Yes.

Wherein might we most attribute the "advances of civilization" in stemming these untoward qualities of the human condition? Within the "laws of god", or within the "laws of man"?

The God of the Bible suitably defines His [own] chosen "favorites".

The Laws of Man declare (even demand) equality and justice for all, regardless of their creed, gender, nationality, or race.

If freedom and opportunity of mind, body, and spirit (in the sense of a mindful/willful independence of existence) are to remain tantamount in furthering the human condition as a whole, one need only look to the extant examples of nations and governments today that establish their most fundamental (present-day) laws and sense of evaluative justice upon either a specific religious (and dogmatically enforced) authoritarianism (see Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc.), or religiously-inspired calling/mandate of accounting/subservience within their civil/criminal laws.

What profound irony is better revealed by those nation states that promote pluralistic/secular laws to protect religious freedoms of practice and adherence from any/all governmental persecution or biased favor...versus those nation states that demand a lawful (enforceable) adherence to a specific faith-based belief (and it's attendant dogma/commandments).

In summary, it might be said that human civilization has become more ordered, more diverse, and yet more amalgamated in shared interests and ideals (or, if you like, "values") by means of incremental refinements of humanistic values and dispensational justice...but any fairly attributable "advances" in attaining this minimalist human civility and tolerance of diversity is not something that the promotion of specifically Christian beliefs/"laws" can rightly (or fairly) assert as result of any "faithful" emulation of their own claimed "role model" in the name of their Christ Jesus.

I can only imagine what sort of modern world of enlightenment and free inquiry we might enjoy today had it not been for the Dark Ages, the Spanish Inquisition, or the "trials" of "true" witches. If only Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, and countless unnamed other explorers of inquiry had not be oppressed/suppressed/castigated/persecuted in the name of religious heresy...

...i might be enjoying that flying car and anti-gravity belt I was sure I would be flitting about town in by my 30th birthday...

Yes. I blame religion in general, and Christianity in particular, for purposefully inhibiting and deflecting the free inquiry and experimentation that scientific methodologies and discoveries may yet reveal and portend; not just for me...but for the entirety of the human condition.

Christianity is a prime example of an insane mentality. The sustaining hope or perspective of any crazy person is a belief that saying/doing the same thing repeatedly, over, and over, and over again... will ultimately (at some point) realize a different and wishful outcome/result. If 2000 years of consistent failure isn't a harbinger for a change of methods and perspectives...I don't know what is...

You are going to need to provide much mroe than a few very well stated paragraphs before I believe that the humanistic approach to morals and values has done more for civilization than has religious dogma. I could just as simply and eloquently make the argument that humanistic values and principles are a result of religious dogma (particularly christianity). That doesn't mean it is true, even if I do believe it. Well written verse doesn not substitute as proof. But I am impressed with your pretty, albeit empty, words.

 

[BUDDY]

You forgot "caused the Black Plague"

Retracted statement.

 

[BUDDY]

Retracted statement.

 

[Draka]

Sweet baby Jesus. Why don't we blame christianity for lung cancer, heart disease and AIDS too.

This poll is confirming my previous held belief that close to (if not) a majority of people on this site hate and are intolerant of christianity and christians.

If you read my post after that you would see how I back up that ascertation. I'm not blaming for cancer or AIDS or anything else.

Man, point out a little trivia and it brings out the CPC (Christian Persecution Complex) in some people.

 

[Francine]

Man, point out a little trivia and it brings out the CPC (Christian Persecution Complex) in some people.

Is that where they list instances of persecution like not being allowed to put the Ten Commandments in federal courtrooms or not being allowed to bring signs that say "Matt Sheperd Burns In Hell" to the funeral of somebody who was literally crucified on a wooden fence in the middle of the Wyoming range?

 

[BUDDY]

If you read my post after that you would see how I back up that ascertation. I'm not blaming for cancer or AIDS or anything else.

Man, point out a little trivia and it brings out the CPC (Christian Persecution Complex) in some people.

Oh come on now, I am not being that dramatic, am I? Seriously, if you can blame christians for black plague, then you can just as easily blame us for lung cancer. Why not?

 

[Storm]

Oh come on now, I am not being that dramatic, am I?

Yes.

Seriously, if you can blame christians for black plague, then you can just as easily blame us for lung cancer. Why not?

Um, she was right about the cats thing.

 

[Don Penguinoini]

Oh, and cancer too. I mean, explorers on behalf of "christian" monarchy explored the Americas, discovered tobacco, and caused millions of deaths by lung cancer.

Look im no fan of Christians. But that does not make them rsponsible. Its our minds which make us do that. Its like the devil, a scapegoat. Blame yourself and no-one else.

 

[BUDDY]

If you read my post after that you would see how I back up that ascertation. I'm not blaming for cancer or AIDS or anything else.

Man, point out a little trivia and it brings out the CPC (Christian Persecution Complex) in some people.

I think the fact that a majority has so far stated that my religion has been a net loss for the world goes a long way toward that more than anything else. That and the fact that I am pretty ****** off from another thread. But you are right, I need to calm down and go away for a while.

On a side note, I am trying to start a christian uprising on RF, but it is not going very well. So far it is just me, but I am trying to get my dog to join too. She is just looking at me funny. I think she might be on the other side.

Sorry I flipped.

 

[Storm]

I think the fact that a majority has so far stated that my religion has been a net loss for the world goes a long way toward that more than anything else.

Hardly anyone's even voted, probably because you didn't include an option for "we have no way of knowing. As for the actual votes, it shouldn't come as surprise that people here remember Christianity's rather brutal history. As the old adage goes, don't ask the question if you don't want to hear the answer. Sorry to be harsh, but that's how I see it.

On a side note, I am trying to start a christian uprising on RF, but it is not going very well.

Why in the world would you want to do that?

Sorry I flipped.

You know, there's not many online are willing to apologize when they should. Frubals for that.

 

[Draka]

I think the fact that a majority has so far stated that my religion has been a net loss for the world goes a long way toward that more than anything else. That and the fact that I am pretty ****** off from another thread. But you are right, I need to calm down and go away for a while.

On a side note, I am trying to start a christian uprising on RF, but it is not going very well. So far it is just me, but I am trying to get my dog to join too. She is just looking at me funny. I think she might be on the other side.

Sorry I flipped.

Tis OK. I just wasn't expecting the whole "might as well" thing about blaming for cancer and AIDS and so on. All I did was try to interject a little known bit of trivia into the thing and suddenly I'm a Christian hater who blames all wrongs on one religion.

I didn't even vote in the poll because I didn't think that one could honestly judge one way or the other.

Yes, Christianity has had negative impacts, but even if you took it out of the realm of history it doesn't mean that things would automatically have been better.

And yes, Christianity has had its good input as well, but that doesn't mean that if they weren't around that everything would be so bad either.

There is no possible way of telling either way.