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Christian - Once Saved Always Saved?

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by chris9178, Jan 24, 2005.

  1. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Yes, you are right that ANY sin seperates us from God. He does not see small or big when it comes to that.

    But the immediate consequences of each sin varies greatly. Here is what Paul says about Sexual Immorality... he seems to make a case for it having a "bigger effect":

    I Corinthians 6:18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.
     
  2. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    1 Corinthians 3:13-15. "Every man's work shall be made MANIFEST: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. vs 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built there-upon, he shall receive a reward. vs 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire."

    This indicates that a person is held accountable for EACH action they take- each work will be tried by fire, good AND bad- if it is a worthless work, it will burn and the person will suffer loss- BUT that person will still have a home in heaven. Once you are saved you can not lose your salvation.

    Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT of yourselves: it is the GIFT of God: vs9 NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.

    Salvation is not through works- works can be either bad or good as indicated by 1 Cor. 3:13-15. Works (good OR bad) cannot affect anyone's salvation, as we are saved by grace.
    Salvation is a GIFT- we have no part in salvation- it is totally God's work. That is why we don't FEEL saved- it is not of OURSELVES.

    John 10:28 And I give uto them ETERNAL life; and they shall NEVER perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

    Eternal means eternal- it is not broken with fits and starts whenever someone gets saved, loses salvation, gets saved again. This verse also shows that NO ONE can take away a person's salvation- including the believer himself. Nothing that the person can do can take away his salvation.
     
  3. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    But you can still reject it. IE. return to your vomit.

    There will be NO reluctant saints going to heaven.
     
  4. mike6704

    mike6704 New Member

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    I do not believe that once you are saved, you are saved for all time no matter what. I think it is possible for a person to loose thier salvation. Paul warned us to hold on to our crown, Jesus spoke about the 10 virgins with lamps, and some were wise and other were foolish. The foolish were assembled with the wise. But when it came time to go in, they had not more oil for the lamps. Which indicated that at one time they did. That is comparable to the Holy Spirit, that which we recieve at baptism. Running out of oil is comparable to not finishing the race, as Paul said also, to finish the race. Any thoughts on this?
     
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  5. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Hiya mike!

    Welcome to Religious Forums.com..... stop by the Member Introductions Forum and say hello!

    As far as your post.... I agree. It amazes me how some people can pick and choose what verses from the Bible match their personal arguments.

    Hey keevlish! How about this verse?
    See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22)

    Peace,
    Scott
     
  6. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    You need to finish that quote. Go on to at least verse 17, and it becomes a warning against defiling the Temple of God (ie their bodies). To do so is to risk being consumed and destroyed by God.The warning makes no sense if it has no teeth. And it promises to those who defile God's Temple that "God will destroy" them. There aren't any qualifying clauses either. Two verses make all the difference in the world here.

    Or maybe...salvation isn't legalistic. For those of us who don't subscribe to OSAS, even saying that "you must pray the Sinner's Prayer in order to be saved," or whatever work it is you would ascribe, is as legalistic a salvation as any, and it is just as works-based. Again, do you believe in Predestination? That's the only way to make your interpretational scheme make sense here. If we have to choose our forgiveness, we are doing something, hence a work.

    Now like the above, though, first notice that it doesn't say "For by grace alone..." It says "by grace." It then goes on to say that salvation doesn't come from ourselves...but from God. So, our works are insufficient, it took God becoming man. Now you stop there, but I think you should continue the quote. Immediately after that, it says "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works." Our purpose is good works, and Paul isn't excising them from the equation all together.

    Again, like both of the ones above, context makes all the difference in the world. How about we tack on what Jesus said before that and show it in some context:

    "I told you, an dyo udo not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, an dthey shall never perish, neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and My Father are one."

    Now...when we put it in context, it brings up that predestination issue again. If you're going to treat this verse individualisticlly, where the promises of salvation are granted individually, you must treat the rest of it that way, given its context...unless you have a very good reason not to. So, do you believe in predestination? The same Jesus who made the promise about nobody plucking His people from His hand also said that His sheep hear His voice...and those who didn't believe didn't because they weren't His sheep. His promise only applies to those who hear His voice...and those are chosen by the Father. If you apply your interpretation consistently, you believe in predestination.

    The alternative view is that His sheep are His people collectively, and not individually. God calls His sheep, and His herd will never be taken from Him...but this promise won't go down to the individual level, but neither does the predestination. I can maintain my freewill with this interpretation, and it is consistent within the context.
     
  7. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    I echo Scott's greetings. Welcome to the board Mike :).
     
  8. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    I said nothing about predestination- although believing that God is omniscient that would imply that he DOES know who will choose salvation or not...

    Works do not affect our salvation but they DO affect reward in heaven... we do good works as Christians for the glory of God- we are his servants. You quoted it yourself- we are his worksmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works. Before we are saved- we are not in Jesus, we are of our father, the devil.

    In Romans chapter 6, Paul speaks to the church concerning sin. verse 1- "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?" The point is, we are saved by grace- and people were using this excuse to continue sinning. They sinned because they knew it would not affect their salvation. But this is not a good situation to be in as a Christian- we were baptized into Christ upon salvation and should be dead to sins- we "put off the old man" and should no longer revel in our sinful nature despite our forgivness.
     
  9. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    It does not matter what YOU think, but what GOD thinks.

    The crown is not a salvation meter, but a reward contingent upon good works as a believer.

    The virgins did not represent a group of people, all of who were saved at one time, but humanity- some were saved and looked forward to Christ's return, some were lost and missed out.
     
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  10. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    This is when a Christian stops WALKING- they are still saved but are ERRING BRETHREN- because we have "put off the old man," it is reprehensible if a Christian turns to the very things that he reveled in as a lost person- that does NOT mean that the Christian is now unsaved- only he is losing out on opportunities to be a servant to God- imagine how he will feel when he stands beforethe lord at the Bema seat and Jesus doesn't say "well done thou good and faithful servant" but only says "you accepted me as your saviour come on in."
     
  11. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    This is Paul speaking to the Gentiles- The apostles were originally called to preach to the Jews and minister to them- however the Jews rejected Jesus. They fell and were not WORTHY of the message. Because of their rejection, the apostles were then sent to the nations- they became the priveledged ones. He is warning the nations not to reject Jesus. Some people, when you give them the gospel, just aren't worthy to hear it- they reject it outright.

    Mark 6:11: "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when you depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Soddom and Gommorah in the day of judgement, than for that city."
     
  12. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    I didn't say you did. I ask if you did. Your interpretation of John 10 requires it, if you're going to interpret it consistently. OSAS also requires predestination, because it is allergic to a works in salvation, but without it, it requires the work of deciding on Christ. The system is rendered contradictory an incomprehensible without it, and your hermeneutic more like cherry-picking if you don't.

    I say they do, and I firmly believe that Scripture teaches that (as I've explained).

    If they sinned because they "knew it would not affect their salvation," the Apostle Paul certainly didn't share the sentiment. He seems to warn them not to comfort themselves with their salvation, because they may well be cut out of the tree saying, "Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either" (11.20-21). I highlighted the warning to make it apparent. Paul would have to be a fool to teach in one place, "You can't forfeit your salvation," and in another, "you may forfeit your salvation if you are haughty." The verse I quoted teaches the latter quite blatantly.

    Using that, I can look again at Rom. 6. Salvation isn't a legalistic thing. Simply sinning isn't going to cut you off, but that isn't an excuse to sin. He tells us that the "old man was crucified" with Christ (6.6), and he affirms that we must struggle against sin, and even explains that by sinning they make themselves a servant of sin, and thus not of God by saying:

    do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present them to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under the law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?" Romans 6.13-16

    In context, Paul's admonision is one that tells them that they aren't under a legalistic salvation...but nonetheless, if they present themselves as servants of sin, they are its servants indeed, and it leads to death. This verse doesn't teach OSAS.

    These are tall words for someone who has yet to substantiate his point. You have yet to show your point, and you aren't speaking for God, only for what you believe. I could just as easily say this to you.

    You disagree with both historical exegesis and context. What do you suppose their oil was if it wasn't works? They clearly expected the bridegroom, but they were slack in putting oil in their lamps (works), and so, the bridegroom came unexpectedly, and they weren't ready. They even begged those who had done what they ought to give them some of their oil, but the others pointed out they wouldn't have enough.

    As a result, they went out to receive oil from others, but it was too late. They weren't there when the Master arrived, and they pleaded to get in. Instead of allowing them or giving them a lesser room, the Bridegroom simply said, Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you." And Jesus warned His disciples, "Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man cometh." The whole point, at least according to Christ's warning, is that the Disciples (and those whom they taught) should watch themselves lest they be unprepared and lose everything like the foolish virgins. This is addressed to people that already believe. If Jesus taught and adhered to OSAS, this would make no sense.
     
  13. precept

    precept Member

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    This discussion has made those who espouse Christianity in any form as being saved ; as long as they believe and accept that Jesus died for
    their sins.

    "The devils not only believe! They know that Jesus died for the sins of humanity; Why aren't they also saved?

    It's ridiculous to assume that in as much as God who hates sin so much as to sacrifice His Own Son to appease His own hatred of sin; would excuse the sins of those who believe that He sent His Son to die for sin.

    The argument presented and arttributed to Paul's teaching is a mis-application of scripture by those who would enter heaven with all their sins intact. Paul's discussion re Works as against Grace has been mis-applied ad nauseum. Paul's argument, addressed to the Hebrews, has as much relevance to salvation through Christ as Simon the Sorcerer's belief that he was saved because he had accepted Christ and was baptized.

    The Hebrews to whom the discussion re Works versus Grace is addressed, did not believe nor did they subscribe to the concept of "Salvation".
    The Hebrews or Jews were not taught any concept of salvation that included a "heaven". It was for these reasons and others that they did not accept Jesus' teaching about salvation from sins and salvation to heaven. And for these same reasons Paul's address to the Jews re works has no relevance to or any connection to the concept of salvation through Christ. THEY DID NOT ACCEPT CHTIST; NOR DID THEY BELIEVE IN SALVATION OR IN HEAVEN

    The Jews were taught that to the extent they did Good Works in their earthly life; that to this degree they will enjoy Blissful living in the life after death.. They believe that all humanity will live in the hereafter ie good and bad humans; and all will live on the basis of the Works done before they died. All these humans in the afterlife, murderers included, who did whatever "good works" before they died would accordingly be rewarded when the Balance between their evil[murders] is weighed against the "good" done when they lived and before they died....In other words; little "good" little Blissful living....Lots of "good" lots of Blissful living.
    Not surprisingly; Islam does also teach its adherents that the "good works" done by the adherents of Islam in this life will translate into Blissful living commensurate to the amount of "good works"....for their men; the more the "good works", the more "wine and women". The reward for their women is not defined.

    It is against this backdrop of "Works" that Paul enlightens his Jewish brothers ; informing them that such "Works" are useless to achieve any "Blissful living" after death. He informs tham that only in accepting Christ as dying for their sins-Grace; can they be saved-"Blissful living".

    The "works" that were practiced by the Hebrews were the same "works" as taught them in scripture, in all the commandments of God and Moses. To these commandments in scripture were added another six hundred and thirteen, making it an arduous task to earn the most Blisful of living after death.

    This concept of "works" by adhering faithfully to the commandments was seen in the question posed by the "rich young ruler' and subsequent answer as given by Jesus to his query re the formula to attain eternal life.

    The answer Jesus gave ie "keep the commandments" was prefaced by the question "Why callest thou me Good"? [Only God is called Good; and done so by Jesus because the rich young ruler did not accept Jesus as God]. "Keeping the commandments" was not foreign to the "rich young ruler"; he had kept them all from his youth...making him a fit candidate for "blissful living" in his life after death[eternal life]. But he went away "sorrowful" on discovering that "eternal life" was not based on "works"; but on "love to one's neighbor". No "works"! whether before accepting Christ or after accepting Christ, will be beneficial to one's having eternal life.

    The answer the "rich young ruler" received from Jesus is crystal clear. Love for one's neighbor will prevent the Christian from sinning against his neighbor. In Christ's words "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself"....and Christ adds..."On these two commandments hang ALL THE Law and even all the prophets."Matthew 22:36-40. The simple explanation being; none in love with his fellow man would "lie, cheat or kill or harm in any way his fellow man, if he loves his fellowman as he loves himself".

    In the same context God loves us sinners as He loves Himself....and if the "rich young ruler" had loved his neighbor as he loved himself, he would have seen the poverty around him and done what God would have done had God been the "rich young ruler". The rich young ruler, instead, was only interested in the extent and to what degree he would "blisfully live" in the "after life"...and he was prepared to dutifully "keep all of the commandments necessary to achieve his "eternal aim" in the "after life".

    The answer Jesus gave the "rich young ruler' on the ruler's query of Jesus as to the formula to "eternal life" or life after death, is the same He gives to all Christians. "Loving the Lord with all of one's heart", will make such an one want to please His God in everything; including keeping all of the commandments of God as given in scripture.

    For example God commands that none will be saved by believing on Him alone....He commands that only those who "believe in His Son and in Him, will be saved". God commanded Abraham to father a son in his old age--a command which if Abraham did not follow would have not caused the Son of God to be born through Abraham's great grandson, Judah. God commands all men to love Him...a command which if not followed will cause such an one to go to the fires of hell. God commands all who want to be saved, to "love his neighbor as he loves himself"...a command which if not followed will cause such an one to be lost. God commands all who would be saved to "search the scriptures daily" to discover the formula for eternal life....a command which if not followed will expose such an one to believe every wind of doctrine--hence making such an one believe a lie...a lie that dooms such an one to the fires of hell. God commands all men to accept Jesus, His Son as their Saviour...a command which if not followed will doom the transgressor to the fires of hell.

    As God puts it....and commands it..."If you love me; "KEEP'[a command!] ALL OF MY COMMANDMENTS". A commandment which if not kept will doom all transgressors to the fires of hell.


    precept
     
  14. precept

    precept Member

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    The upshot of it all therefore, is that the book of Hebrews was written only to the "Hebrews of Judaism" who did not accept Christ as Messiah or as a Saviour.

    Any discussion re Grace and Law and "works" must be confined to the context of Judaism as Judaism believed in the life lived after death.

    An extrapolation from Judaism's belief re the "after life" and "works" and in the keeping of God's commandments;to that of Christianity's Salvation belief, as it also nvolves "works", can be drawn from the useless rituals as practiced by those of Christianity's religions who place themselves in extreme self denial as in the custom of "monks", "nuns", "priests", "holy men", and those who practice "self-flagellation" and other forms of self denial designed to win God's favor.

    Paul's counsel still rings true. "Have faith in God; in that He alone saves to the uttermost those who come to Him, believing Him that His Son alone was sacrificed for sin".
    It is this belief in His Son that saves the sinner from the penalty of sin as committed by the believer; but only as the believer is sorry for such sins committed against His Redeemer, and repents and turns away from such sins; is the believer forgiven...and only as the believer asks for forgiveness can the believer be forgiven...and only one who does not want to sin who also would seek forgiveness for such sins...and only one who does not want to sin would try not to sin against his neighbor. But "My little children, these things write I unto you that you SIN NOT!. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous......and hereby We Do Know That We Know Him, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS"! "He that saith, 'I know Him' and keepeth not His commandments, IS A LIAR AAND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM" 1 John 2:1-4.


    precept
     
  15. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    Actually, Hebrews was written to Christian Jews (meaning they had already accepted Jesus Christ as their saviour) who were turning back to the old system of works for righteousness because they were being persecuted by the Judaizers. The epistle is written as a warning to not doubt what Jesus did, not doubt your salvation, and not to continue in the old ways of working for your salvation or else what Jesus did on the cross was in vain.
     
  16. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    Actually, when Christ tells the ruler to follow the commandments to have eternal life, he was speaking theoretically- theoretically, if one DID keep the commandments, one would be righteous and perfect to enter heaven. HOWEVER, NO ONE can keep the commandments. Jesus was making a pointed statement that the man could not enter heaven unless he sought God's grace for his salvation because he had already failed to keep all the commandments.
     
  17. Joannicius

    Joannicius Active Member

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    Pardon me but overlooking the comments on this says this and that says that makes me think that many of the comments are not remembering the relational aspect of Our God. He isn't bookkeeper, he is the husbandman wanting His Bride to prepare herself for the wedding. Let's concentrate more on what is involved to prepare our own garment than to prove our point. The issue more than our sin is our forgetting our Creator. When we remember Him and His love for us and that He is the Only Lover of Mankind it will check our tendency to sin and cause us to draw closer to His side. If you doubt his love for us and/or fear that you have committed the unpardonable sin you should read "River of Fire" by Dr. Kalomiros. If after reading that you can't believe God loves you, then I would fall down in sackcloth and ashes to repent and seek God's face until He touched me or I died. Warning this isn't for the dogmatic Calvanist who won't be able to get past the first sentence.

    http://joannicius.sovereign.us/River%20of%20Fire.htm
     
  18. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    And this applies to "Once Saved Always Saved" in what way? I am just a simple man and I must have missed your connection.
     
  19. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    It applies because if you misinterpret a portion of scripture than I can easily see the possibility of anyone misinterpreting scripture and saying that one can lose his salvation.
     
  20. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    And if you're calling me calvinist I'm not. I am a Christian and I follow the Bible.
     
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