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Christian - Once Saved Always Saved?

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by chris9178, Jan 24, 2005.

  1. chris9178

    chris9178 Member

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    I'm inspired by a disagreement I had in a Bible Study with, well, practically every other member of that study. This arguement has been around for hundreds of years, and its still a very split issue. What sort of arguments would you use to debate your side?
     
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  2. TheIdealist

    TheIdealist Member

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    Faith by works and works by faith a never ending cycle, if Christ died for our sins and taught repentance through "go and sin no more" you must maintain your salvation through faith by works and works by faith. Of course you cant buy your way in through works and yes it is by grace we are saved in the end but we defintly must never stop trying and repenting on a daily basis.
     
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  3. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    I simply point out this: OSAS requires Calvinist-style predestination or a legalistic salvation. Christianity lacks Calvinist predestination (granted, there are Calvinists who hold to it, but it's actually only possible if we ignore whole passages and take others out of context), and its savlation isn't legalistic. From this, I can safely say OSAS isn't a sound doctrine for Christians.

    I would further add that Paul's analogy of the race includes fear that we may be discredited, and he commands us to "work out our faith with fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12). Further, James states that "faith without works is dead." That which is dead was once alive, and James was writing to Christians. Lastly, Jesus, in His parable of the sheep and goats in Mt. 25 makes it clear to them that some people will think they had it all together in the afterlife, and they clearly believed, but will find that they lacked the right works to go with their faith. Likewise, the virgins lacked oil.

    So, no, OSAS doesn't quite fly ;).
     
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  4. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    Christians are saved forever once they accept Jesus as their saviour.
    1. They are born, again of incorruptible seed which yields the fruit of everlasting life (1 Peter 1:23).
    2. They stand before God clothed in the imputed (credited) righteousness of Christ, and not in their own (2 Corinthians 5:21; Romans 5:19-21).
    3. His sheep have been given eternal life-they shall never perish (John 10:28).
    4. Their eternal lives are forever hid with Christ in God (Colossians 3:1-3).
    5. They are already seated in the heavenlies in Christ (Ephesians 1:3; 2:6).
    6. The penalty for all their sin has been forever settled through the perfect and finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 4:23-5:2; 5:6-9).
    7. Loss of reward at the Judgment Seat of Christ is certain for the careless Christians, but not loss of salvation (1 Corinthians 3:10-15).
    8. God faithfully chastens all of His children, even to the point of taking home those who refuse their Heavenly Father's correction (Hebrews 12:6-11; 1 Corinthians 5:1-5; 11:28-32).
    9. They have already been delivered from the wrath to come (1 Thessalonians 1:9,10; 5:8-10).
    10. They are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8:23).
    11. The Lord knoweth them that are His; false professors will be revealed as such at the White Throne Judgment (2 Timothy 2:19; Revelation 20:11-15; Matthew 7:21-23).
    12. God is the one Who has begun the good work in the believer, and He has promised to perform it until the day of Jesus Christ; they are to "work out," not "work for" their salvation (Philippians 1:6; 2:12,13).
    13. They are already living stones in the spiritual building of God of which Christ Himself is the Chief Cornerstone (1 Peter 2:5; Ephesians 2:20-22).
    14. They are members of the Body of Christ, each with a peculiar function and without each one, the Body would not be complete (1 Corinthians 12:12-27).
    15. They are kept by the power of God, through faith, not through the efforts or the works of the one who is saved. (1 Peter 1 :5).
    16. Their incorruptible, everlasting inheritance is reserved for them by God (1 Peter 1 :1-4).
    17. They are God the Father's irrevocable gift to God the Son (John 17:6,7).
    18. Backsliding is a sin, but the blood of Jesus Christ, God's Son, cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1 :7-9)
    19. He is able to save them to the uttermost because Christ "ever liveth to make intercession for them" (Hebrews 7:25).
    20. They are upon trusting Christ made "accepted in the Beloved" (Ephesians 1:6).
    21. Nothing can separate them from the love of Christ (Romans 8:38-39).
    22. By one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified (Hebrews 10:10-14).
    23. They cannot be unborn (John 3:6-8).
    24. Christ dwelleth in them for ever (2 John 2).
    25. No man can pluck the Christian out of His Father's hand, and that necessarily includes the believer himself (John 10:29).
    26. All who are justified are finally glorified-none are lost along the way (Romans 8:28-30).
    27. In their flesh dwelleth no good thing; they are saved by grace (undeserved favor) and not by their own works (Ephesians 2:8, 9).
    28. The gifts and calling of God are without repentance; God will never annul His promise or cast out those who have come unto Him through Christ (Romans 11:29; John 6:37; 17:2).
     
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  5. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    No matter how hard they may try to reject Him.. is that it? Wow... makes life easier than all this "love thy neighbor" crap I've been dealing with.... what a relief!;)

    I'm off to party.... murder.... whatever! I'm SAVED!
     
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  6. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

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    Judas Iscariot. Called 'traitor' in the bible. Once apostle wasn't forgiven for his dead of betraying Jesus.
     
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  7. Druidus

    Druidus Keeper of the Grove

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    Wow, if this is true, I'm covered either way! Thanks! ;)
     
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  8. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    It's an analogy. The implication is that the faith of Christ is incorrupt, and it does yield everlasting life. However, in the context of I Peter we read:

    "Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you in the revelation of Jesus Christ: as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance, but as He who called you is holy you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy." And if you call on the Father who without partiality judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here, in fear: knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible through the word of God which lives and abides forever. (I Pet. 1.13-23, emphasis added)[/quote]

    It seems in context, it doesn't say what your single verse quotation said.

    Could you point out to me the imputed righteousness here? I don't see it. I see, rather, people transformed so that they actually participate in the righteousness of Christ.

    The teaching in II Cor. that we "might become the righteousness of God in Him" doesn't say anything about us having Christ's righteousness imputed upon us. It says, quite plainly, we become the righteousness of God, no imputation involved.

    In Romans, we find that death entered through Adam, and just so life entered in Christ. Again, though, nothing about imputation. It simply teaches that grace abounds where there was death, and the more that was dead, the more grace makes alive. The Christian isn't supposed to have imputed life. He is supposed to live, and we do this by becoming, not by being imputed IMO.

    I can grant a degree of strength to this one, only if you believe in predestination. John, if interpreted in a predestinarian context, could allow that. However, since you seem to deny that by affirming we must "accept" Christ, the same interpretive principles that deny predestination deny an individualistic interpretation here. Rather, Christ would be talking about His people, and that the people would never be corrupted and removed. Compare this with His promise that the Gates of Hades will not prevail against His Church.

    Paul, though, goes on to say "put to death your members which are on earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, in which you yourselves once lived in them" and so on (vv. 5ff.).

    What does he mean by "hidden," then? Well, it doesn't mean simply covered over with another life, to be sure. Our answer lies in v. 4. He says "When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory," or more specifically vv. 10-11. There we find that this happens on account of putting on the "New Man." This, however, isn't yet done. Paul commands his audience to do it. It continues to be renewed (present tense, with the perfect for "put on"), and in the context, this renewel can be nothing but our good deeds. Nothing else is hinted at.

    Thus, again, we don't find OSAS.

    Verse 1.6 says nothing about security. 2.6, though, leads into vv. 8-10 where Paul explains that works aren't the cause of our salvation, but grace (the working of God) so that the Christian may perform good works. This, in its turn, leads to vv. 11ff. where he explains that the believers have been made a part of Christ, that they are in Christ. Ultimately, I can take this to vv. 19-20, where Christ is the cornerstone of a building still being build. Most importantly here, it is still being fitted together.

    The verse says nothing about OSAS, and while it doesn't blatantly contradict it, it's pretty easy to understand in a contradictory manner.

    Here we get to a verse that sounds like it means imputed righteousness, but when we remove from it the Western terminology, we see it says no such thing. "justify" also can be translated "made righteouss." In the former, it means to satisfy some legal penalty so that the actions are acceptable. In the latter, it refers to changing the character of the individual. As an Orthodox Christian, my Church has always gone for the latter, and has always lacked the Western terminology.

    Also, when understood this way, Christ's death on the cross deals with our corruption, not our guilt. It isn't a legal transaction. In the other phronema, we are able to endure tribulations, on account of the "love of God" and the Holy Spirit (v. 6). It, thus, says nothing about OSAS.

    If you tack on vv. 16-17, this passage is actually hostile to OSAS, and I think that's why you make the division you do of "loss of reward" but not "loss of salvation." It is a warning. "Do you know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are." It's pretty apparent here that the ones who defile the temple of God are the people who are the Temple of God.

    Taken with these two verses, those who defile the Temple of God, are also the same ones who are destroyed by the wrath of God. This passage makes no division between eternal salvation and loss of reward. They are synonomous. This is the same author, after all, that warns the gentiles that they are wild olive branches grafted in, and that the wild branches shouldn't boast, lest they be cut off and cast into the fire (Hell) in Romans 11.

    With that, however, I'm going to stop commenting on verses. It's tedious at best to go through and show in verse after verse how it doesn't apply, especially when there's so many. I think I've shown a fairly good amount of answers simply going line by line, and not picking and choosing. Further, I think I'm nearing the character limit.
     
  9. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Many thanks for the help here Druidus :).

    You see, Druidus has exposed another part of the problem. He was once Christian and has decided to become a Druid. Traditionally, this is a severe offense, but in OSAS, he can butter his bread on both sides.
     
  10. chris9178

    chris9178 Member

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    A few things....

    I think saying that OSAS requires pre-destination is taking quite a bit of liberty in itself. There isn't a convincing connection between the two. You could use one to support the belief of the other, but each is completely interdependent.

    Secondly, simply listing a host of scripture verses is a very poor way to defend any doctrine, or idea. When you list, as Keevelish has done, a series of verses without any sort of accompaning remarks, or interpretation in the least, then you leave yourself open to discrediting.
    For example, you have listed:

    One can only assume that you, by some revelation, interpret this to defend your statement. Well, everybody else is going to come by and see things such as this and guess that, you either put it there to fill up space, not thinking that anybody would actually read through your post, or your knowledge of this subject is so weak that you indescriminately toss about quotes without bothering to think about them.

    I can't, for the life of me, see how your #20 has anything to do with OSAS.... unless your taking even further liberty than No*s and saying that "accepted into the Beloved" translates into "saved for all eternity".

    And another thing,
    I looked that up, simply because of the directness of the statement. It would have been convincing had John 3:6-8 actually said anything such as that. Could you explain that one?

    Now I'm sorry if I sound a little condescending, and possibly sarcastic, but the fact of the matter is that just using one verse from the Bible and expounding on it would be much more convincing than taking scripture out of context to manipulate into saying what I want it to say.

    Here are some other arguments that were told to me that night:

    Man doesn't have the ability to get rid of Jesus.

    If a christian leads a holy life, but steals something just before he dies, will he go to hell? (this is obviously an extreme, and a hypothetical situation, not meant to be realistic, just to get the point across...)

    Where do you draw the line? When do you become unsaved?

    Those are the three I recall at the moment. I have my own answers to those, but I'm very interested in hearing either some added arguements, or counter-arguments. Scriptural referencing would be good IN context and WITH accompaning remarks.


    I do have one more thing to ask. Is everybody at least in agreement that one side is right, and the other is wrong (or possibly even both are wrong...)?
    Either way it goes, we are either saved once and for life, or we are not.
     
  11. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    This is a corruption of "Grace". Grace (which saves you) is becoming MORE like God. Those who are saved will produce fruits of salvation, those who are not, won't!

    II Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

    It don't get more graphic than that my friends. :(
     
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  12. TheIdealist

    TheIdealist Member

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    if it only takes being saved then your cool, why did Christ come down and live a life of teaching us how to try to be the best we can each and every day. i dont mean to be rude but how can you not see that please explain to me in your words not a bible that has been distorted by man through time . dont get e wrong i believe the bible to be the word of God but at the same time i know man has changed this book to control people (ie. church of england back in the day changed it to control people).
     
  13. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    ND, I would frubal you for that, but I have to spread it around...it sounds so close to Eastern Christianity :).
     
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  14. Andra130

    Andra130 Member

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    I have to agree with the idealist on this one. Although I am not a Christian, I used to be and gosh do I feel better knowing that I am "saved" just because I once believed. Sure, whatever....

    However, other theology perpetuates the belief that the only way to make it to "heaven" is to be "saved" by works of faith (as opposed to faith alone). But I dont think I am all that bad and if God is really the understanding diety that he or she is supposed to be then is that taken into consideration or am I simply up the creek with out a spiritual paddle? Hmmmmmmmm...:D
     
  15. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    There is one sin that is unforgivealbe. There is one thing mentioned in the scriptures that indicates that you can do to lose your salvation. Blaspemy of the Holy Sprirt.

    Mark 3:29 - but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin

    and also Luke 12:10 - "And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.

    don't forget Matthew 12:32 - Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come

    How can you say that there is no way one can lose their salvation in light of these passages?
     
  16. Andra130

    Andra130 Member

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    Hate to get into semantics, but what would you define as the "Holy Spirit"? Doesn't this depend on whether or not you believe in a trinity?
     
  17. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Actually, it does. Here's an explanation of why:

    OSAS is a compenent crafted into 5-Point Calvinism. The points go, basically:

    Total Depravity of Man
    Unconditional Election
    Limited Atonement
    Irresistable Grace
    Perseverance of the Saints

    TULIP is the acronym.

    It's a logical and philisophical system. Each compenent is interdependant on the other. OSAS is part of a 2-Point Calvinism, sometimes 3-Point, because Baptists in the 19th century moved from the strict Calvinist standpoint of the Particular Baptists to a more modified standpoint. Other groups underwent similar transformations, but I don't know as much about it.

    Basically, it kept points T and P. The system starts with "total depravity" of man. Man is incapable of good. Therefore, man cannot perform any works to redeem himself. It moves on to say that God in His wisdom worked to save His people, but He selected ahead of time who these would be. Here, we have the U: God has chosen regardless of our wishes. Next, we arive at L, that Christ only dies for the select few, because they can proffer no works to save themselves, nor will they. Next, we have that those whom God calls will come, regardless. Works aren't an issue at all, and we have point I. Finally, the Perseverance of the Saints is built on all the preceding, and gives us P, which is OSAS.

    This is the system that OSAS was created for. To this day, it bears vestiges of this, and it is those hidden vestiges that make it untenable without predestination. The reason that we can't get rid of salvation, is because we can't do anything to earn it. We must rely wholly on faith. At that point, it is identical to Calvinism.

    However, it divides in on itself here. It teaches that we must accept Christ, normally involving something like the "Sinner's Prayer." This changes the mix. It adds a work. Now, OSAS differs from the Perseverance of the Saints in that salvation is dependent on our performing one work: accepting Christ. This divides it against the Total Depravity of Man to a large degree and jettisons the rest of Calvinism's core points.

    In the end, you have a system where you can't lose your salvation, because you can't do anything to obtain it...but you must do something to obtain it. It becomes self-contradictory and incoherent if you try to approach it this way. Further, the division of this single work being all that's required is completely novel.

    So, unless one doesn't care how much one's beliefs contradict one another and divide against one another, OSAS does indeed require predestination. It makes no sense outside of the Calvinist framework in TULIP.

    EDIT:

    It is important to realize, when we look at Christian teaching, that no individual doctrine stands by itself. If we change something, it changes something else, and so on. Likewise, they all have other doctrines they're dependant on. OSAS can only be considered logically separate from predestination only if we isolate issues from both their logical context and historical origins.
     
  18. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    Does it really matter what it is? All that matters in this case is that is simply is. The point is that it exists. And if you speak against it you will not be forgiven. And I don't see how one can still preach the "once saved always saved" doctrine in light of this fact.
     
  19. Andra130

    Andra130 Member

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    Ok, basically the term the "Holy Spirit" covers Christ, God and the Holy Ghost essentially? Well, then if I read the first couple chapters of Lev. and decide that it is dumb then I am never forgiven? Isn' t this speaking against the Holy Spirit? Seems like not much of a chance to me. It just seems to me like a lot of religious information is not definitive or comprehensive, so how can "God" expect us to make that kind of decision?
     
  20. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    Who said Judas Iscariot was saved just because he was counted in the original apostolic group?

    Funny how no one commented on this one...
    According to the beliefs of many here, Chris 9178 is no longer saved (if he ever was)- he has not treated me with love according to the Bible 1Cor 13:4-7 nor has he loved his neighbor as himself. If you tack works on to salvation then you have to wonder- when do you become unsaved?

    Am I unsaved when I steal a paperclip? Am I unsaved when I say something mean to someone (as Chris9178 did)? Do I become half-saved... gee this concept of salvation is pretty wishy_washy...

    Well, I dare say that I used more than one verse in my argument- did you use ANY Chris 9178? Look up 2nd Tim. 3:16 and you'll know why I do use scripture- and I DON'T know where I used anything out of context.
    Sorry, can't explain God's mind without using God's words- especially to someone who believes that God's word ISN'T God's word at all.
     
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