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Christian - Once Saved Always Saved?

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by chris9178, Jan 24, 2005.

  1. Performance Park

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    This is definitely true, and that is why this is such a common debate today.
     
  2. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    After you are saved, what would be the point of trying to live a good life? You are automatically saved, so why would we try and still obey the word? Why not go out and steal, and kill, and lie? I know it sounds ridiculous, but really, why not?

    Besides, no one has addressed the point I made earlier about blasphemey of the Holy Spirit. How can anyone still preach the "once saved always saved" doctrine with this in mind?
     
  3. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Well-said. I've avoided posting the RoF, because its language can be quite harsh, but it certainly makes the point :).
     
  4. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    OSAS needs Calvinism to make sense, and it is a Calvinist doctrine. I am asking you those questions to see if you apply the doctrine consistently, including the doctrines upon which it is built. OSAS needs predestination to make sense. If it doesn't have it, then it becomes a double-standard.

    No works value in our salvation except asking Jesus for forgiveness/into your heart, or deciding to follow Christ. All these are things we do. They are works. If there aren't any works, then we make no decisions, and God makes the call.

    Your system, then, becomes trapped by its own legalism.
     
  5. Joannicius

    Joannicius Active Member

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    As an Orthodox I believe OSAS for we don't know if we made it until we pass to the other side .... then if we are saved (from perdition)
    IT IS FOR ETERNITY!!!!!!!!!:woohoo:
     
  6. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Yep. When you cross the threshold, it is forever hehe. :jiggy:

    Sadly, applying it to this side of death sort of nullifies some of the struggle.
     
  7. prosecutor

    prosecutor Member

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    Just for consideration, if one can never so sin as to be lost eternally after they have become believers, why so many warnings in the Bible about apostasy? (Hebrews 3:7-19)

    Prosecutor
     
  8. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Very concise :).
     
  9. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    Who says apostasy means losing one's salvation? Apostasy is preaching false doctrine. One can be Christian and still misinterpret the Bible and preach it wrong. That doesn't mean for a second that that person is going to hell.

    Apostasy can also mean the "wolves in sheep's clothing." These people may not be saved at all, but infiltrate Christianity and draw Christians away from living as God wants them to. No one who is saved becomes unsaved in this case.
     
  10. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    Because our works after we are saved will be tried by fire to see if they still last at the Bema Seat. If they do, we get reward. If they burn, we suffer loss. We have not, however, lost our salvation. This judgement for Christians after the rapture is the impetus to do works that are good and of the right attitude. We are conscious of the fact that we WILL be judged before Christ- NOT on our salvation, but on our works AFTER salvation.
     
  11. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Well, there is Paul for starters:

    Galations 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

    But I can surely understand if he is not reliable enough for you. After all, the meaning here can't really be all that clear.
     
  12. precept

    precept Member

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    If, as you suggest- " 'Hebrews' was written to Christian Jews"...You make chapter 1 of Hebrews...where Paul makes the arguiment for Jesus being God..."He laid the foundations of the earth" a ridiculous argument. All "Christians" already accepted Jesus as God..hence they needed no reminders..even if as you in error suggest "they had backslidden".


    precept
     
  13. precept

    precept Member

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    1 John 1:5-7..."This then is the message which we have heard of him[
    ie. "the gospel message" ]which message declare unto you, and the message is!..."God is light", and in him is no darkness at all. If WE SAY WE HAVE FELLOWSHIP WITH HIM, AND WALK IN DARKNESS, WE LIE! and do not the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

    Only those who proclaim theselves Christians claim to have "fellowship with God"; But yet God Himself says that they are "LIARS" 'They have no fellowship with him'.

    All who proclaim themselves Christians "must walk in the same identical TRUTH that God speaks of. If such is not the case such a false advocate of Christianity is called a "liar" by God Himself...And the last time I checked all "liars" are in hell.


    precept
     
  14. Christopher Krajewski

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    Saved always means to me in agnostic eternity. Actually the definition of eternity has with it the part that the very human condition of mankind is to carry on the genealogy. So " begets", in let me take a guess, St. Mark has the induction of eternity.

    Eternity gives the physical God a presence in some form of uncertainty. Maybe he was not the original true expected or already done Son of God. But eternity is justified in any genealogy (unless One after-all is such a lonely number, that two will always be better).

    I personally believe I am saved. That took some leap of faith. Let me recount. The son of God is God. Yes, that shows only one God.:tsk:


    If now I could only figure out how have an aviator (is it upload a picture?).
     
  15. precept

    precept Member

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    And even if, as you so mistakenly postulate... that Paul was addressing his letter of Hebrews to "Hebrews Christians"...Then you must also erroneously conclude that "Hebrews Christians" would include Peter, James and John and the rest of the disciples and all of the more than three thousands of Jews converted to Christianity on the day of Pentecost.

    Read Acts chapter 21...and learn why you must so conclude......In the words of the apostle James to Paul....Verse 18 "And the day following, Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.....and when they heard it they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe;AND THEY ARE ALL ZEALOUS OF THE LAW: and they are informed of thee, that THOU TEACHEST ALL THE JEWS THAT ARE AMONG THE GENTILES! TO FORSAKE MOSES

    "THE JEWS THAT ARE AMONG THE GENTILES TO FORSAKE MOSES!"[repeated for emphasis]

    Now listen to how the "thousands of Christian Jews in Jerusalem reacted to Paul's teaching of the "Hebrews" among the Gentiles.....

    "What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together[a riot in the making] for they will hear that thou art come. Do therefore this that we say to thee[or the plan to avoid the riot of the "Christian Jews"]....."We have four men which have a vow on them[or another Hebrew ceremonial lawas kept by James, the disciples and all the thousands of Jews in Jerusalem] Take them and purify yourself with them[Paul is now also commanded by all the disciples in Jerusalem to keep the law of the Hebrews with these "four men"]....and all[the "Christian Jews" in Jerusalem] may know that those things whereof they were informed concerning thee; ARE NOTHING!....but "THOU THYSELF ALSO WALKEST ORDERLY, AND KEEPEST THE LAW![spaced for emphasis]

    For further enlightenment...read the rest of the chapter.!

    I rest my case!



    precept
     
  16. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    regarding the blasphemy of the holy spirit:

    The Unpardonable sin was committed by the Jews of Jesus’ day and it would be “that generation” that would have to answer for the rejection of Jesus Christ as their “Promised Messiah". Many of the Pharisees were saved afterwards proving it was not an individual sin but a collective one.

    The Bible says that they will not be forgiven in the present age or later on. It does not mean people will commit this sin in the age to come- because one of the requirements is that Jesus had to be physically present in front of them- this is why the term Son of Man is used. There are other blasphemies we can do, so there is not just the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. However this is the only one that has the punishment of being unforgiven, with no hope of ever being forgiven.

    This is strictly a sin from UNBELIEVERS opposing Jesus’ ministry. No one who believes in Jesus Christ and His purpose of coming to the earth to forgive sins can ever commit this sin. If a person doesn't accept Jesus as his saviour though, he will still have the same punishment as the person who blasphemed the holy spririt.
     
  17. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    The preacher is not saved, especially if he is preaching another gospel. The "preachers" were Judaizers! People who wanted to pervert the gospel so that what Jesus did on the cross wasn't enough, that one had to do WORKS along with salvation. This is PRECISELY the issue that Paul is condemning here. He is condemning a false gospel of salvation affected by works.

    If you look at today's conglomeration of professed Christianity- there are MANY swayed by perverted teachings, such as you can lose your salvation, for starters. This does not mean that those, after becoming saved, then going to a bad church, where there is a bad preacher and hear that they can lose their salvation, really DO lose their salvation. Those who are preaching another gospel ARE NOT SAVED to begin with. They don't know what being saved really means. There was NO condemnation on the part of those who were LISTENING to the false gospel.
     
  18. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Well, there has been no response to Galations 1... Go figure!

    How about this scripture:

    Hebrews 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. 9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case--things that accompany salvation.

    If the writer of Hebrews identifies the possibility of "falling away", then that's good enough for me. You can believe what you want, I will choose to believe the Bible.
     
  19. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    That is what I am precisely saying that they had "back-slidden." They were not being reminded that Jesus was God, because of course they knew that when they accepted him as saviour. The first chapter of Hebrews is NOT a reminder, but a confirmation of the SUPERIORITY of Jesus over everything. They needed to remember that he had once and for all conquered death. They were being swayed into false teachings, of a salvation system in which works affected one's eternal destiny. They needed to remember that Jesus had ended that system for ever, and that they were accomplishing nothing by falling back into the old system. They needed to know that what they were doing was, essentially, an insult to Jesus's infinite superiority and were basically making what he did on the cross in vain.
     
  20. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    Go figure. Look above your response there.

    And yah I DO believe the Bible, inerrant and God- breathed, and Un- twisted.
     
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