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Christian - Once Saved Always Saved?

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by chris9178, Jan 24, 2005.

  1. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I'm sorry, but I disagree. A man can endure only as long as he lives. Even after we covenant with Jesus Christ to be His, Satan continues to tempt us. Those who succumb to temptation without repenting have not "endured to the end." Thus, they have chosen to break the terms of the covenant they made with their Savior. :jiggy:
     
  2. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    We are saved by the grace of God and through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9), an often misunderstood term and not by works, which we should boast. Faith is simply the way we say yes to God's free gift of eternal life. A gift that can be taken away by my actions is no gift at all. It becomes an act of legalism. Jesus paid our sin debt on the cross more than two thousand years ago and when we accept that as fact, trusting and believing in that sacrifice, we are sealed until the day of Christ's return. 1 Peter 1:18-21 and Hebrews 9:12 gives us that assurance. Through Christs death and resurrection, we have the assurance and peace through Him. Just like we are not saved by works, neither can we lose the fate that Christ has sealed for us through His sacrifice. If that was not the case, we would be living day by day in fear, doubting our eternal security. When James makes reference to "faith without works is dead", the authors intent was not in reference to salvation. James was referring to trusting in God completely, and letting your actions reflect that in your daily life, without leaning to our own understanding (Proverbs 3:5) and perceived power. Paul reminds us of the lack of revelance of the law and works in Galations 3:6-14 to reinforce this fact. We are not saved by our works for Christ, but we will be rewarded for our works when we get to Heaven. For those who are saved, but choose not to carry forth the torch for Christ or who would choose to live a more carnal existence, are still saved. God just deals with those individuals in His way, like a father who disciplines a child for disobedience, whether adversely impacted their life through circumstances or trials or holding back blessings or something far more serious. But He does not rescind His gift that His Son laid down His life for those who believe on Him. :)
     
  3. rmarchy

    rmarchy Member

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    But Katzpur, that makes you the savior. You save yourself that way. This whole book is about a savior, The Savior. Religion has no savior, it has a balance that must weigh in your favor to get into heaven. There's no glory to God that way. Christ saves you, when you rest and trust in HIS work, rest in that knowledge that HE and HIS work, HIS blood, is your passport to heaven. That knowledge should make you WANT to do good works for HIM, out of love for HIM, and not because you have to balance your scale out of fear. If there was anything you could do to work your way into heaven, then God IS A MONSTER for sending His Son to that cruel and criminal cross.
     
  4. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    So Katzpur, you think our salvation can be taken away by our works or lack thereof? What if I am saved through my acceptance of what Christ did for me more than 2000 years ago, but succumbed to temptation on my way to work. I get in a fatal car accident and die prior to getting a chance to ask for forgiveness. Is my fate not still with Christ in Heaven? On another note, when Jesus died for our sins on the cross, did that only cover the sins we committed up until the point we accepted Him through salvation or did He cover the sin debt once and for all, including those sins you would commit after you came to Christ? If it was a covenant (which is analogous to a contract), it would not be a gift of God as stated in Ephesians 2:8,9. I agree that we who are in Christ should repent and ask for forgiveness when we sin and since we are reminded by the Holy Spirit that dwells in us to do so, many Christians do. But God deals with unconfessed sin in different ways, taking away one's salvation does not seem to be one of them. Just like we cannot earn salvation thorugh our works, neither can we lose it by our works. Enduring to the end was a means of encouraging Christians to persevere and not be afraid but to trust in Christ completely and do not be easily swayed or threatened by persecution. Interested in your thoughts. :)
     
  5. Lindsey-Loo

    Lindsey-Loo Steel Magnolia

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    I am actually involved in this same disscussion on another Religion debate forum. I'll quote part of the discussion from Christian Viewpoints.com:

    I am currently awaiting a reply from seldomscene. Anyway, this is my view on the matter. OSAS is a very silly concept. It doesn't make sense.
     
  6. rmarchy

    rmarchy Member

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    Hi ChristianGirl, check this book out, and let me know what you think. You don't have to buy it, it's right here: http://www.bijbel.nl/things_that_differ.htm
    for free. Give it a good, honest, open-minded read and see if it sheds some light for you. This book started it all for me years ago. I hope you enjoy it. But take some time, perhaps this weekend, and crack your Bible open along with it, and give it a good honest read. :)
     
  7. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Well since the Bible says we can fall away, I guess I'll just have to believe that we can fall away.
     
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  8. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    Only God knows our hearts and conviction to His Son. You may have questions of those who appear on the surface to be Christians and saved based on what they say, but their lives don't align with what Christ commanded us to do as believers. Did they really believe and have faith in the first place or was it the vogue thing to do? Only God knows and He is judge, not us. :)
     
  9. Lindsey-Loo

    Lindsey-Loo Steel Magnolia

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    Here are the updates for my debate on Christian Viewpoints.com with seldomscene. As you will see, it turned out quite well.

     
  10. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    rmarchy,

    You certainly don't have to agree with me. I'm fine with our having a difference of opinion. But please don't try to put words in my mouth. I never claimed to be able to save myself. I never said I could do anything to work my way into Heaven and I certainly don't think God is a MONSTER! Apparently you have no interest in trying to understand my meaning. You'd rather just twist my words into something I didn't say. Nice try, but it won't work with me. I know what I believe and I do not believe what you have implied I do.

    Kathryn :banghead3
     
  11. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    blueman,

    You've misrepresented what I said. I did not say "our salvation can be taken away by our works or lack thereof." I simply said that the individual who claims to be Christ's and then willfully continues to sin -- without repenting -- has broken the promise he made to Christ at his baptism. God knows the condition of our hearts. He loves us and truly wants us to return to Him. He's not going to condemn anyone to Hell on a technicality, such as the one you described. Of course Jesus' atoning sacrifice paid for the sins we would commit after coming to Him -- but only so long as we are sincere in wanting to do His will. A true Christian must be willing to do more than talk the talk; he must be willing to walk the walk.

    Kathryn
     
  12. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    I agree that there needs to be some change or renewal of one's mind and behaviour as a result of following Christ. That's why I mentioned that some people say the words to salvation, because it's the "vogue thing to do" these days, but those words may not have true meaning because they really did not believe. Also, there are some "carnal Christians" out there who truly believe and have faith in Christ, but are still focused on "self" and old ways. :)
     
  13. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Then perhaps our viewpoints are not so different after all. :)
     
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  14. leesw

    leesw New Member

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  15. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Right on ! Very Good Job!!! Frubals to ya!!!:bounce
     
  16. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    Apologists Gary Hoge does a wonderful job of this. Here let me paste it.
    Good Luck
    ~Victor

     
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  17. JOSEF THE PROPHET

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    Osas Is A False Teaching; Obedience Is Required For Salvation.
     
  18. Uncertaindrummer

    Uncertaindrummer Active Member

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    Wow Victor. Great stuff there!
     
  19. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    You must spread some Karma around before giving it to Victor again.
     
  20. oneWord

    oneWord New Member

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    ok, the virgins lacked oil. Without the Holy Spirit, we wouldn't even believe it. Who gives us the oil?/Spirit to believe? Who convicts us? Who melts our hearts? (stone to flesh?) Who changes our life? There is no faith without works and no works without faith. (ok, you're thinking about all the executive or phony suck-ups who do good works for self-achievement)......hmmmm God knows our hearts and what motivates us to do our 'supposed' ACTS of faith. Who changes our minds? Who gives us grace for grace? Who leads us to pray? Jonah couldn't hide. There is no such thing as luck. God speed!
     
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