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Christian - Once Saved Always Saved?
- Thread starter chris9178
- Start date
rivenrock
Member
Being saved has to do with the sum total of your life. Your works are judged, and if your works are judged to be equivalent to your understanding of good and evil, then you will be saved, ie. the grace of Christ makes up the difference between what you strove to achieve and the perfection you couldn't reach. So while it is true that we are saved by grace, this doesn't negate the need for our part - our efforts, our faith, or progression towards perfection. Or else why has God indicated we will be judged? If grace saved us with no regard for our works, on what criteria would we be judged? It can't be merely on whether or not we believe - as James (2:19) pointed out, even devils believe in God.
'OSAS' doesn't make any sense - we need to LIVE our beliefs to be saved. Believing only saves us because it prompts us to ACT. (James 2:14-26) gives a really good explanation of this.
'OSAS' doesn't make any sense - we need to LIVE our beliefs to be saved. Believing only saves us because it prompts us to ACT. (James 2:14-26) gives a really good explanation of this.
prosecutor
Member
rmarchy, it is not I who is confused. You said that the Kingdoma was "an earthly one not a spiritual one." Pilate was concerened about the possibility of Jesus' kingdom being an earthly one. The Lord cleared that matter up when He said to Pilate, "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence" (John 18:36) The kingdom is a spiritual kingdom and that spiritual kingdom is the church. It was established on the first Pentecost after the resurrection of Christ. (Acts 2) Peter's sermon that day was the fulfillment of what Jesus had told Peter back in Matthew 16:18,19. When each person is converted, they are "delivered out of darkness and translated into the kingdom of the Son of God's love" (Colossians 1:13). No sir, it is not me who is having a problem understanding the nature of the kingdom.
Prosecutor
Prosecutor
Most people, and i say this lovingly, but they take this verse out of context, and without regard of the original language, Greek here, for God never wrote a word in English.
What does it mean to be saved here. The word saved is from the greek verb "sozo" to deliver. Deliverance isn't always the same in the scriptures, i.e, Mary prays, and she uses this word to save, to deliver to refer to Israel's future national salvation. But she also uses the noun form, savior, to refer to her own personal salvation. So it can refer to Israel's salvation as a nation which is still future, or it can refer to a personal salvation from the consequences of sin and condemnation.
It can also refer to other things. Paul asks the Philippians (Phil 1:19) to pray for him, and says he's sure their prayers will contribute to his salvation. Does he mean that he's really not saved yet, that he doesn't have eternal salvation, that he'll goto hell and be damned for eternity? NO! He's not talking about personal salvation from condemnation, he already has that. He's just said that in his life he's been dedicated to honoring God and that he doesn't want to fail to honor God in death. So he says you Philippians pray for me for my deliverance. Then he says to the Philippians work out your own deliverance with fear and trembling. Hes not saying work out your own personal salvation from sin and hell and condemnation, they already had that. Thats not something you can work, out or for, thats something that God does and your fingerprints are nowhere on it and neither were the Philippians. Hes saying work out your deliverance in the same way, you ought to be honoring God, so work out your deliverance from dishonoring God in the same way.
Salvation is a generic term until given a technical meaning by its context. Youll see here in Matthew 24 what it means. And what about the word end? This always confuses people too who think that salvation is probation and that you can lose your salvation by being bad even though you didnt get it by being good. What is the end here to which the disciples were told, the Jewish believer must endure in order to be delivered?
Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Now we see the first of four uses of the word end here in Matthew 24, and theyre all going to refer to the same thing, and it isnt the end of a persons life. They didnt ask Him, tell us what will be the sign of your coming in the end of our lives, or how long are each of us going to live? They were asking not about the end of a mans life, their lives or anyone elses, they were asking Him about the end of the age or world.
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
So they asked Him in verse 3, what shall the sign of the end of the age, and He says the end of the age is not yet, even though many will come claiming to be Christ, and there will be wars and rumors of wars.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
These things have not happened yet, friend. The Jewish people have been hated because the devil has put hatred into the heart of gentiles for the Jewish people, simple as that, but theyve never been hated for the sake of the name of the Son of God. They have rejected Christ all these centuries, so how could they be hated for accepting Him. It hasn't happened yet, but it will happen.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
To the END of what dear friend? That word end there weve already seen 3 times, now the 14 verse will clear it up.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
And He goes on to say:
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand...
That hasnt happened yet. In verse 29 our Lord says:
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
What does it mean to be saved here. The word saved is from the greek verb "sozo" to deliver. Deliverance isn't always the same in the scriptures, i.e, Mary prays, and she uses this word to save, to deliver to refer to Israel's future national salvation. But she also uses the noun form, savior, to refer to her own personal salvation. So it can refer to Israel's salvation as a nation which is still future, or it can refer to a personal salvation from the consequences of sin and condemnation.
It can also refer to other things. Paul asks the Philippians (Phil 1:19) to pray for him, and says he's sure their prayers will contribute to his salvation. Does he mean that he's really not saved yet, that he doesn't have eternal salvation, that he'll goto hell and be damned for eternity? NO! He's not talking about personal salvation from condemnation, he already has that. He's just said that in his life he's been dedicated to honoring God and that he doesn't want to fail to honor God in death. So he says you Philippians pray for me for my deliverance. Then he says to the Philippians work out your own deliverance with fear and trembling. Hes not saying work out your own personal salvation from sin and hell and condemnation, they already had that. Thats not something you can work, out or for, thats something that God does and your fingerprints are nowhere on it and neither were the Philippians. Hes saying work out your deliverance in the same way, you ought to be honoring God, so work out your deliverance from dishonoring God in the same way.
Salvation is a generic term until given a technical meaning by its context. Youll see here in Matthew 24 what it means. And what about the word end? This always confuses people too who think that salvation is probation and that you can lose your salvation by being bad even though you didnt get it by being good. What is the end here to which the disciples were told, the Jewish believer must endure in order to be delivered?
Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Now we see the first of four uses of the word end here in Matthew 24, and theyre all going to refer to the same thing, and it isnt the end of a persons life. They didnt ask Him, tell us what will be the sign of your coming in the end of our lives, or how long are each of us going to live? They were asking not about the end of a mans life, their lives or anyone elses, they were asking Him about the end of the age or world.
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
So they asked Him in verse 3, what shall the sign of the end of the age, and He says the end of the age is not yet, even though many will come claiming to be Christ, and there will be wars and rumors of wars.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
These things have not happened yet, friend. The Jewish people have been hated because the devil has put hatred into the heart of gentiles for the Jewish people, simple as that, but theyve never been hated for the sake of the name of the Son of God. They have rejected Christ all these centuries, so how could they be hated for accepting Him. It hasn't happened yet, but it will happen.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
To the END of what dear friend? That word end there weve already seen 3 times, now the 14 verse will clear it up.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
And He goes on to say:
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand...
That hasnt happened yet. In verse 29 our Lord says:
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Now this isnt tribulation in general. Careless Bible students will say well theres been tribulation ever since Adam fell, and thats true. But Hes marked off a particular tribulation here. Hes called it, greater then any preceding or succeeding it. He says here: Immediately after THE TRIBULATION (definite article identifies a particular tribulation, time of trouble) and then He says: of those days. Those days havent happened yet. So this is a particular tribulation to be experienced in the future and immediately after it, not a long time or short time after, shall the sun be darkened, hasnt happened yet, the moon shall not give her light, hasnt happened yet, the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken, thats still future.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven (Hasnt happened yet): and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (Hasnt happened yet).
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Hes going to gather Jewish believers and though He didnt reveal it in the Olivet Discourse, gentiles that have come to faith in Christ through the Jewish believers, and hes going to gather them from the uttermost parts of the earth, that hasnt happened yet. Thats going to happen immediately after the tribulation of those days.
So Hes speaking here about Jewish believers who survive to the end of the 7 year tribulation period. He says that its limited to 7 years because the human race would perish if it werent, except those days be shortened, no flesh would be saved. In other words, if it went on longer then 7 years, the human race would become extinct.
We are really the first generation to have the theoretical capacity to destroy ourselves, germ warfare, nukes, chemical but we know it wont happen. Immediately after the tribulation of those days, that limited 7 year period, theyll see the sign of the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, that hasnt happened yet.
So this is not a warning that todays believer will lose their salvation if they dont endure unto the end of his life, its a promise of blessing to those who survive the 7 year tribulation period, because immediately after it, Christ is going to come and rescue the believing remnant of Israel, and all those gentiles who have come to Christ through Israels ministry.
So it isnt talking about the end of your life and saying that you must be faithful until the end of your life. Certainly God wants you to be faithful until the end of your life, He wants me to be faithful to, but thats not the point here. The context here is the end of the tribulation and those that will survive to the end of the tribulation will find immediate deliverance through the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ to rescue Israel in the bottom of the ninth. Salvation is never probation.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven (Hasnt happened yet): and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (Hasnt happened yet).
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Hes going to gather Jewish believers and though He didnt reveal it in the Olivet Discourse, gentiles that have come to faith in Christ through the Jewish believers, and hes going to gather them from the uttermost parts of the earth, that hasnt happened yet. Thats going to happen immediately after the tribulation of those days.
So Hes speaking here about Jewish believers who survive to the end of the 7 year tribulation period. He says that its limited to 7 years because the human race would perish if it werent, except those days be shortened, no flesh would be saved. In other words, if it went on longer then 7 years, the human race would become extinct.
We are really the first generation to have the theoretical capacity to destroy ourselves, germ warfare, nukes, chemical but we know it wont happen. Immediately after the tribulation of those days, that limited 7 year period, theyll see the sign of the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, that hasnt happened yet.
So this is not a warning that todays believer will lose their salvation if they dont endure unto the end of his life, its a promise of blessing to those who survive the 7 year tribulation period, because immediately after it, Christ is going to come and rescue the believing remnant of Israel, and all those gentiles who have come to Christ through Israels ministry.
So it isnt talking about the end of your life and saying that you must be faithful until the end of your life. Certainly God wants you to be faithful until the end of your life, He wants me to be faithful to, but thats not the point here. The context here is the end of the tribulation and those that will survive to the end of the tribulation will find immediate deliverance through the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ to rescue Israel in the bottom of the ninth. Salvation is never probation.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I think, too, that we have to define the word "salvation." Jesus said that He was the resurrection and the life. I think most people see these words as being pretty much synonymous, but if they were, why would He have used both words? Why not just, "I am the resurrection," or "I am the life." I see the resurrection as being salvation from death. Were it not for Him, death would be the end. We didn't personally do anything that makes us deserving of death; we have Adam to thank for that. On the other hand, we can't possibly do anything to make us deserve to be resurrected. Jesus' Atonement automatically saves both the wicked and the righteous to the extent that all will live again.Snowbear said:My understanding (not complete, I'm sure) is that all I'm required to do to receive that gift is to accept it. Is more (the doing works part) required for salvation... or does that come later if my faith grows? (i.e. right now, I don't have the Faith to move a molehill with a shovel, much less that of a mustard seed needed to move a mountain just by asking
To me, however, salvation is much more resurrection. Matthew 16:27 specifically states that when Christ returns to the earth, He "shallreward every man according to his works." I don't think that it lessens Christ's gift to us in the slightest by recognizing that. So I don't think we are saved by our works, but that He will acknowledge them and reward us for our obedience and faithfulness. Since it doesn't make much sense to think He meant that some will get a gold halo and others just a silver halo :162: , I think rewarding us for our works pertains to something of a more spiritual nature. And some, I suspect, will attain a greater salvation in that respect than others.
prosecutor
Member
rmarchy, you are not even in the ballpark on the correct interpretation of Matthew 24. Jesus had just told His disciples of the destruction of the temple. (v.2) His disciples asked him two questions about the matter: (1) "when shall these things be?" and (2) "what is the sign of thy coming and the end of the world?" (v.3) Jesus responds to the first (the destruction of the temple) through verse 34. Note, He clearly said "This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be fulfilled". (v.34) The second question (His second coming) He deals with in verses 36-51. Also note He made it so clear that even people like yourself can't miss it and that is "no one but the Father knows when this time will be". (v.36) The first part (vss.4-34) was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. Of course, the second has yet to happen. All this foolishness about the restoration of Israel at some point in the future is a bunch of tommy-rot. The only "true Israel of God today" is His church. (Galatians 3:15-29; 4:21-31; 6:16)
Prosecutor
Prosecutor
eternalsaint
New Member
this is an argument that i've also had many times. but as for myself i believe that once you've truly accepted Christ into your heart you are transformed. you should have the desire and passion to live for Him and as a reflection of Him. i know you will never be without sin, but thats what Christ died for, forgiveness. although its impossible, it should be the thought of perfection that drives us throughout the day. But instead of spending our time arguing with our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ we should put our efforts into telling unbelievers that God is real and Jesus Christ is the only way to eternal salvation
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
So, what you are saying eternalsaint, is to major in the majors and minor in the minors! That's why I think Jesus' favorite word was "GO".
EnhancedSpirit
High Priestess
When we accept Jesus as our saviour, we turn our lives over to God. We freely admit that we are powerless except for the Creator. To be saved means that you will no longer allow your 'animal instincts' to guide your decisions.
So if you are truly saved, you will always be saved, for you have stopped trying to control your life based on your opinions and misconceptions of the world.
On the cross, Jesus said "God, why have you forsaken me?" We all have moments like this, when we can't see what God purpose behind something is. But if you are saved, your faith will carry you through, not your opinions. Those who are saved are given clear vision to realize that there is in fact a "method to his madness".
So if you are truly saved, you will always be saved, for you have stopped trying to control your life based on your opinions and misconceptions of the world.
On the cross, Jesus said "God, why have you forsaken me?" We all have moments like this, when we can't see what God purpose behind something is. But if you are saved, your faith will carry you through, not your opinions. Those who are saved are given clear vision to realize that there is in fact a "method to his madness".
blueman
God's Warrior
Jesus death on the cross was not a lie. It presented a clear path to salvation through Christ's death and subsequent ressurection to those that believe through faith. Ephesians 2:8,9 point us to the fact we are saved because of grace and faith, not by works, it is the gift of God. God is not an indian giver, he does not sign and subsequently erase your name from the Lamb's Book of Life because you falter, but allows us to mature and develop a long-term relationship with Him through the church, His Word, prayer and life circumstances. Salvation is a maturation process of sprititual growth. One does not change overnight and God, through His Holy Spirit, will help you mature in Him.
Nice answer blueman!
I want to clear up some James versus that were stated early in the forum.
Doesnt it say:
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Interesting! It doesnt say Abraham was justified by works for a lifetime, from the time he became a believer. It doesnt say he was justified for the next 50 years after attempting to offer Isaac. He was willing to sacrifice his son, and Hebrews says that he believed that God would raise his son from the dead and continue the Abrahamic covenant through Isaac and Isaacs seed.
Abraham lived at least another 50 years after trying to offer Isaac, so did he have salvation then, was he eternally secure? If, as some teach, he received the second half of his justification when he offered Isaac, was his salvation then complete or is there a third half? Can you have 3 halves of something? Did God require another 50 years of him producing good works to be declared righteous a 3rd time? It doesnt say anything like that. It says he was justified (declared righteous) when he offered Isaac. He still had another 50 years to live.
Those who teach that youre justified by grace through faith, but not completely justified, because then you have to be justified by God producing good works in you for the remainder of your life, and if you dont produce enough good works, or if you quit producing, or if you stop believing, then you lose your justification is nonsense. You cant even prove that by James 2:21, because it says Abraham was declared righteous WHEN he offered Isaac. He still had 50 years to go.
Now those that teach that you have to be faithful for a lifetime in order to merit salvation (which is a complete contradiction anyway, how can you merit grace, unmerited kindness because God gives His free gift to His enemies, not to his friends), run into trouble on their own verse.
The simple answer is that here James is talking about a justification before men. The whole 11th chapter of Hebrews is about men demonstrating their faith by their works, not about men being saved by their works. Here Abraham demonstrates his faith before men and is justified in the eyes of men. Man can only see works, they cant see faith. They can only see the evidence of faith, and thats why James says you see, in verse 24.
Now how do we know that, well we know that from James, but how about Romans 4 as well, where we have a justification that took place 50 years BEFORE Abraham offered his son on that altar (a shadow of what Christ would accomplish in the future).
Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; BUT NOT BEFORE GOD.
In other words, Paul doesnt argue about justification by works, he just says its an entirely different justification, then justification by faith. Theres two justifications in the Bible. Justification by faith is a right-standing before God, and justification by works is a right-standing in the eyes of men. Thats why James says:
Jam 2:24 You see, then, that a man is justified out of works, and not out of faith only.
He tells you right there, not by faith ONLY, as in there are more then one, that there are two justifications, a justification by works before men, and justification by faith before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
See the Bible is the sole authority to Paul, and it ought to be to you and me. Paul takes us back to Genesis 15:6 where God leads Abraham out of his tent and into the desert to look at the midnight sky, with its bright-shinning stars, and He says; Abraham! (and Abrahams body was dead, and so was Sarahs, which means they were too old to have kids, but they do anyway by the miracle of the Lord, perfect shadow of the virgin birth) your progeny down through the ages will be as numerous as the stars of heaven. That was the whole thing. Abraham knew that he was way too old to have any kids, and so was Sarah, it was impossible. But nothing is impossible with God and Abraham simply believed God, took God at His word and it was credited to him for righteousness (a right standing). Thats what faith is, taking God at His word, trusting Him.
I was listening to a preacher the other night, and I think hes a dear man, you cant help but like the guy, but he said that when the woman that was taken for adultery came before Christ, and Christ said; neither do I condemn you, go and do this sin no more, that he really meant that I will not condemn you if you change!
Theres nothing like that in the context. Christ was saying I dont condemn you, therefore you ought to change. Thats the Pauline message and that was the message of Christ to the woman in the gospel of John. So this fellow was saying; if you dont change you cant be saved! Well how much change, and for how long? You see, he has no answer and thats why he teaches that you can lose your salvation, and that hes always sure that he hasnt lost his salvation, but you may have lost yours. Thats an interesting consideration isnt it. Love the preacher but hate the doctrine because hes teaching doctrine that flies in the face of the plain teaching of Gods word.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Abraham believed God, it doesnt say that Abraham believed God and changed. Right there in the desert he believed God and was saved, was declared righteous. Just like the thief on the cross. He didnt have anytime to do good works; all he did was believe and was saved. The Jews in the desert who were snake bitten, and were dying, and the message was look and live. Look to that bronze serpent that was on the banner staff, which was an upright with a cross-bar, and every snake bitten dying Jew that looked onto that snake lived. It was only believe friend.
You see when you only believe (trust), when you do the only thing that you can do without doing anything, a miracle takes place called the new-birth and then you are divinely capacitated to walk by the spirit and not by the flesh, and perform good works, and the righteousness of the law is fulfilled IN you, but not BY you. The Holy Spirit is very precise with His language. The definition of Faith in the Bible is simply Believing God, its not even believing IN God or believing ABOUT God, its BELIEVING GOD, taking God at His word. If God didnt say it, you cant believe it. Faith in the Bible IS NOT your ability to convince yourself that your faith is great enough to move the hand of a reluctant God and get your wishes. You see, God has to say it for it to be scriptural faith. How do we know that?
Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing (the thing heard), and hearing (the thing heard) by the word of God.
Faith is taking God at His word. Its not believing your impulses, believing your dreams, believing your desires, believing that you can move the hand of a reluctant God and making Him give you what He doesnt want to give you. Faith is not wishful thinking pumped up to 15 pounds per square inch.
I want to clear up some James versus that were stated early in the forum.
Doesnt it say:
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Interesting! It doesnt say Abraham was justified by works for a lifetime, from the time he became a believer. It doesnt say he was justified for the next 50 years after attempting to offer Isaac. He was willing to sacrifice his son, and Hebrews says that he believed that God would raise his son from the dead and continue the Abrahamic covenant through Isaac and Isaacs seed.
Abraham lived at least another 50 years after trying to offer Isaac, so did he have salvation then, was he eternally secure? If, as some teach, he received the second half of his justification when he offered Isaac, was his salvation then complete or is there a third half? Can you have 3 halves of something? Did God require another 50 years of him producing good works to be declared righteous a 3rd time? It doesnt say anything like that. It says he was justified (declared righteous) when he offered Isaac. He still had another 50 years to live.
Those who teach that youre justified by grace through faith, but not completely justified, because then you have to be justified by God producing good works in you for the remainder of your life, and if you dont produce enough good works, or if you quit producing, or if you stop believing, then you lose your justification is nonsense. You cant even prove that by James 2:21, because it says Abraham was declared righteous WHEN he offered Isaac. He still had 50 years to go.
Now those that teach that you have to be faithful for a lifetime in order to merit salvation (which is a complete contradiction anyway, how can you merit grace, unmerited kindness because God gives His free gift to His enemies, not to his friends), run into trouble on their own verse.
The simple answer is that here James is talking about a justification before men. The whole 11th chapter of Hebrews is about men demonstrating their faith by their works, not about men being saved by their works. Here Abraham demonstrates his faith before men and is justified in the eyes of men. Man can only see works, they cant see faith. They can only see the evidence of faith, and thats why James says you see, in verse 24.
Now how do we know that, well we know that from James, but how about Romans 4 as well, where we have a justification that took place 50 years BEFORE Abraham offered his son on that altar (a shadow of what Christ would accomplish in the future).
Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; BUT NOT BEFORE GOD.
In other words, Paul doesnt argue about justification by works, he just says its an entirely different justification, then justification by faith. Theres two justifications in the Bible. Justification by faith is a right-standing before God, and justification by works is a right-standing in the eyes of men. Thats why James says:
Jam 2:24 You see, then, that a man is justified out of works, and not out of faith only.
He tells you right there, not by faith ONLY, as in there are more then one, that there are two justifications, a justification by works before men, and justification by faith before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
See the Bible is the sole authority to Paul, and it ought to be to you and me. Paul takes us back to Genesis 15:6 where God leads Abraham out of his tent and into the desert to look at the midnight sky, with its bright-shinning stars, and He says; Abraham! (and Abrahams body was dead, and so was Sarahs, which means they were too old to have kids, but they do anyway by the miracle of the Lord, perfect shadow of the virgin birth) your progeny down through the ages will be as numerous as the stars of heaven. That was the whole thing. Abraham knew that he was way too old to have any kids, and so was Sarah, it was impossible. But nothing is impossible with God and Abraham simply believed God, took God at His word and it was credited to him for righteousness (a right standing). Thats what faith is, taking God at His word, trusting Him.
I was listening to a preacher the other night, and I think hes a dear man, you cant help but like the guy, but he said that when the woman that was taken for adultery came before Christ, and Christ said; neither do I condemn you, go and do this sin no more, that he really meant that I will not condemn you if you change!
Theres nothing like that in the context. Christ was saying I dont condemn you, therefore you ought to change. Thats the Pauline message and that was the message of Christ to the woman in the gospel of John. So this fellow was saying; if you dont change you cant be saved! Well how much change, and for how long? You see, he has no answer and thats why he teaches that you can lose your salvation, and that hes always sure that he hasnt lost his salvation, but you may have lost yours. Thats an interesting consideration isnt it. Love the preacher but hate the doctrine because hes teaching doctrine that flies in the face of the plain teaching of Gods word.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Abraham believed God, it doesnt say that Abraham believed God and changed. Right there in the desert he believed God and was saved, was declared righteous. Just like the thief on the cross. He didnt have anytime to do good works; all he did was believe and was saved. The Jews in the desert who were snake bitten, and were dying, and the message was look and live. Look to that bronze serpent that was on the banner staff, which was an upright with a cross-bar, and every snake bitten dying Jew that looked onto that snake lived. It was only believe friend.
You see when you only believe (trust), when you do the only thing that you can do without doing anything, a miracle takes place called the new-birth and then you are divinely capacitated to walk by the spirit and not by the flesh, and perform good works, and the righteousness of the law is fulfilled IN you, but not BY you. The Holy Spirit is very precise with His language. The definition of Faith in the Bible is simply Believing God, its not even believing IN God or believing ABOUT God, its BELIEVING GOD, taking God at His word. If God didnt say it, you cant believe it. Faith in the Bible IS NOT your ability to convince yourself that your faith is great enough to move the hand of a reluctant God and get your wishes. You see, God has to say it for it to be scriptural faith. How do we know that?
Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing (the thing heard), and hearing (the thing heard) by the word of God.
Faith is taking God at His word. Its not believing your impulses, believing your dreams, believing your desires, believing that you can move the hand of a reluctant God and making Him give you what He doesnt want to give you. Faith is not wishful thinking pumped up to 15 pounds per square inch.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Read that whole 11th chapter. If God didnt say it, they couldnt have believed it, and neither can we. God believes His Sons work to be perfect, that instead of offering a lamb up every year to cover sins, like the Levitical priests did (which was a shadow), God offered up the PERFECT LAMB (His Son) that removed EVERY SIN past, present, and future, and we are saved when we believe (trust) that too (Acts 16:31).
Good works come into play after salvation, but they never issue in our salvation, otherwise we could boast. The mentality should be that God saved me, now I want and ought to do good works for Him not I have to do good works for ME so I can make it to heaven. One is selfless, one is selfish. One does works out of joy and full assurance, the other out of fear and not being sure. Ephesians says we are created UNTO good works. We should and ought to do good works. But we dont get saved by them ever.
Mat 11:28 Come to Me, all those laboring and being burdened, and I will give you rest.
Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Ok so James, in James chapter 2, refers to this incident and says that Abraham was justified, declared righteous when he offered up Isaac. And Paul is telling us in Romans 4 that Abraham was justified 50 years before that, when he looked up at the desert sky and believed God about his future progeny. So is there a disagreement between Paul in Romans 4 and James chapter 2?
None whatsoever! James is talking about a justification in the eyes of men; and Paul is talking about justification before God. But Paul doesnt discount that man can be justified before men, and have grounds of boasting by his works, BUT NOT BEFORE GOD!
So that knocks out the idea that faith plus works equals salvation. So James is talking about justification in the eyes of men on a part of a person who HAS BEEN already justified in the eyes of God. Thats two justifications, not a justification by faith plus works, but a justification by faith and a justification by works.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt (or wages).
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
But keep reading:
Jam 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
He doesnt mean by faith plus works, not by faith alone but by faith plus works. He means that theres a justification by works just as there is a justification by faith. Faith justification isnt the only justification. James is not talking about one justification which is of faith plus works, but two justifications. One by faith, and thats not the only one, but theres also a justification by works.
See if youre justified by works in whole or in part, that is by works alone, or if youre justified by faith plus works because faith isnt enough to do it till you add the works, then you have grounds of boasting. But Paul rules that out, he says; but not towards God. If youre justified in the eyes of men, which is what James is talking about, you can boast. Boy Abraham could really boast. He can say; has your faith been tried? Look at how my faith was tried. I was willing to offer my beloved son Isaac. Thats how great my faith is.
But no, you see Abraham had already been a saved man 50 years before that, he had eternal security for 50 years already before he even offered Isaac on the altar. When talking about justification in the eyes of men, James brings up the altar, the offering up of Isaac. When talking about justification before God, Paul brings up the desert scene.
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."(no works there)
Rom 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
It doesnt say to him who works less, or works a little, it says to him that does not work. That is he has no works to offer God for salvation.
But believes on Him (trusts in him) who declares righteous the UNGODLY. Did you get that? The ungodly have no works. The night I was saved, I had no works, I was ungodly. My works of righteousness (not our sins there, but the best things that could be said about us) were as filthy rags according to Isaiah, and God has never changed His mind. My friend, if youve been saved, declared righteous, then you were ungodly until the very second you were declared righteous. His FAITH is accounted for righteousness. Not his works, not his faith plus works.
Rom 4:6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
David talks about it too. God reckons righteousness APART from works;
Rom 4:7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
They could only be covered in Davids day, but the cross has changed all that. Now theyre removed.
Rom 4:8 "Happy [is] a man to whom the LORD shall by no means account [or, impute] sin." [Psalm 32:1,2]
By NO MEANS impute sin, thats the blessed man, the saved man. The man who trusts in the God who declares righteous the UNGODLY.
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
If you could lose what you got by being bad, then you must have got it by being good, but my Bible says God justifies the ungodly.
Understand what salvation is friends. If you HAVE NOT been saved from the complete possibility of ever getting condemned in hell fire, then obviously you haven't been saved at all, you are on PROBATION. But salvation can never mean probation, and probation can never mean salvation. They are completely different things.
God is not in the business of rehab, He doesn't make your old nature better. Religion does that. We have two natures now that are in constant battle with each other. When we are saved, we are born AGAIN, we get a new nature, and we are babies in that new nature initially. We must now grow in that new nature by studying His Word.
"Inside of me there two dogs. One of the dogs is mean and
evil. The other dog is good. The mean dog fights the good dog all
the time." Which dog wins? "The one I feed the most."
Read that whole 11th chapter. If God didnt say it, they couldnt have believed it, and neither can we. God believes His Sons work to be perfect, that instead of offering a lamb up every year to cover sins, like the Levitical priests did (which was a shadow), God offered up the PERFECT LAMB (His Son) that removed EVERY SIN past, present, and future, and we are saved when we believe (trust) that too (Acts 16:31).
Good works come into play after salvation, but they never issue in our salvation, otherwise we could boast. The mentality should be that God saved me, now I want and ought to do good works for Him not I have to do good works for ME so I can make it to heaven. One is selfless, one is selfish. One does works out of joy and full assurance, the other out of fear and not being sure. Ephesians says we are created UNTO good works. We should and ought to do good works. But we dont get saved by them ever.
Mat 11:28 Come to Me, all those laboring and being burdened, and I will give you rest.
Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Ok so James, in James chapter 2, refers to this incident and says that Abraham was justified, declared righteous when he offered up Isaac. And Paul is telling us in Romans 4 that Abraham was justified 50 years before that, when he looked up at the desert sky and believed God about his future progeny. So is there a disagreement between Paul in Romans 4 and James chapter 2?
None whatsoever! James is talking about a justification in the eyes of men; and Paul is talking about justification before God. But Paul doesnt discount that man can be justified before men, and have grounds of boasting by his works, BUT NOT BEFORE GOD!
So that knocks out the idea that faith plus works equals salvation. So James is talking about justification in the eyes of men on a part of a person who HAS BEEN already justified in the eyes of God. Thats two justifications, not a justification by faith plus works, but a justification by faith and a justification by works.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt (or wages).
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
But keep reading:
Jam 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
He doesnt mean by faith plus works, not by faith alone but by faith plus works. He means that theres a justification by works just as there is a justification by faith. Faith justification isnt the only justification. James is not talking about one justification which is of faith plus works, but two justifications. One by faith, and thats not the only one, but theres also a justification by works.
See if youre justified by works in whole or in part, that is by works alone, or if youre justified by faith plus works because faith isnt enough to do it till you add the works, then you have grounds of boasting. But Paul rules that out, he says; but not towards God. If youre justified in the eyes of men, which is what James is talking about, you can boast. Boy Abraham could really boast. He can say; has your faith been tried? Look at how my faith was tried. I was willing to offer my beloved son Isaac. Thats how great my faith is.
But no, you see Abraham had already been a saved man 50 years before that, he had eternal security for 50 years already before he even offered Isaac on the altar. When talking about justification in the eyes of men, James brings up the altar, the offering up of Isaac. When talking about justification before God, Paul brings up the desert scene.
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."(no works there)
Rom 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
It doesnt say to him who works less, or works a little, it says to him that does not work. That is he has no works to offer God for salvation.
But believes on Him (trusts in him) who declares righteous the UNGODLY. Did you get that? The ungodly have no works. The night I was saved, I had no works, I was ungodly. My works of righteousness (not our sins there, but the best things that could be said about us) were as filthy rags according to Isaiah, and God has never changed His mind. My friend, if youve been saved, declared righteous, then you were ungodly until the very second you were declared righteous. His FAITH is accounted for righteousness. Not his works, not his faith plus works.
Rom 4:6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
David talks about it too. God reckons righteousness APART from works;
Rom 4:7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
They could only be covered in Davids day, but the cross has changed all that. Now theyre removed.
Rom 4:8 "Happy [is] a man to whom the LORD shall by no means account [or, impute] sin." [Psalm 32:1,2]
By NO MEANS impute sin, thats the blessed man, the saved man. The man who trusts in the God who declares righteous the UNGODLY.
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
If you could lose what you got by being bad, then you must have got it by being good, but my Bible says God justifies the ungodly.
Understand what salvation is friends. If you HAVE NOT been saved from the complete possibility of ever getting condemned in hell fire, then obviously you haven't been saved at all, you are on PROBATION. But salvation can never mean probation, and probation can never mean salvation. They are completely different things.
God is not in the business of rehab, He doesn't make your old nature better. Religion does that. We have two natures now that are in constant battle with each other. When we are saved, we are born AGAIN, we get a new nature, and we are babies in that new nature initially. We must now grow in that new nature by studying His Word.
"Inside of me there two dogs. One of the dogs is mean and
evil. The other dog is good. The mean dog fights the good dog all
the time." Which dog wins? "The one I feed the most."
TheGreaterGame
Active Member
From a Calvinist Perspective the issue is "Perseverance of the Saints" not so much osas . . . If you are truly born again then you will follow the commandments of Christ. John 14:15. Luke 6:46 . . . Once an individual is truly "Born Again" he is a new creation. People can make all the professions of faith, but the truth of the matter is that the proof is in the pudding. A genunine Christian will be faithful to Christ . . . a false beliver will prove him or herself to be a false beliver-- Case Closed!
blueman
God's Warrior
Judas was a radical and never accepted Christ for who He was, the Messiah and Son of God who came to minister, serve and save through His death and resurrection. Judas came from a group who evisioned the Messiah as someone who would come and overthrow the Roman government and sent up a kingdom. He was a doubter in the true deity of Jesus which made him vulnerable to Satan and subsequently, to betray Christ.t3gah said:
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Well, I believe in the doctrine of "once saved always saved," but with a significant qualification. The only thing is that the scriptures are quite explicit in telling us that "but he that shallendure unto the end, the same shall be saved." They never, to the best of my knowledge, speak of being saved in the present tense. Since salvation is something that comes only at "the end," once we have been saved (having endured to the end), we'll be saved forever more. Prior to "the end," all bets are off.
Katzpur, Christ wasn't talking about the "end" of a man's life there, he was talking about the end of the world. Check it out... i addressed it... hope it sheds some lightKatzpur said:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8154&page=23&pp=10