Christian Nation reaches the US Congress

[MaddLlama]

There is a big difference between the way the government is supposed to work, and the way the Christian fanatics want it to work. By advocating that the government work the Christian way, then yes, I would have to say that just in the matter of civics they are either unedcuated, or worse, selfish pricks. Unfotunately selfishness has become a great value in the US, and I don't see much of a way to stop people.

The politicans themselves are very smart. They know how to get what they want. However when I hear droves of Christians tell me that the US is a "Christian Nation" based on Biblical values, and that the countries founders were all fundamentalist Christians just like them who wanted everyone to be a Christian, I do think they're uneducated. These are the people who vote for religious politicians - if they actually were educated on these matters of government they would see clearly that this isn't the case.

So, if I'm not supposed to think these people are uneducated, what am I supposed to think?

 

[Booko]

And I thought we had problems in the UK.....

Oh no...you're country's general indifference to things religious is in many ways a great asset.

You have no idea... :cover:

 

[Booko]

In retrospect that was an illusion - not peace but an illusion of peace. The discontents that led up to 9/11 and our current situation were already long stewing. And some of the events that we hailed as peaceful victories led directly to the conflicts we face now... it seems like we got complacent, fell asleep and woke up with a bunch of crazy people running the world. Everyone... crazy people speaking for Muslims, crazy people speaking for the Jews, crazy people speaking for Christians, crazy people speaking for Hindus... insane people who think they can "anihilate their enemies" via force.

Fundamentalism is not restricted to Muslims or Christians -- it's a problem everywhere.

The brief peace we had, I think, didn't last because we ignored basic principles of justice for various peoples. And yes, complacency! How often do we write up a nice agreement, and then declare "Mission Accomplished!" and pretend there's no need for further engagement?

What the heck is Katherine Harris doing in the House of Representatives??! That ***** went through the FL voter lists and systematically disqualified people of color from voting, knowing that they would most likely vote Dem. How could FLoridians elect her after what she did??! The world is insane.

Have you read Greg Palast's work on the subject?

I found it especially interesting that PBS' Frontline comissioned him for a documentary, but when they viewed it they nixed airing it. They made no comments at all on it being incorrect or otherwise bad journalism. That action reeks of political decisions, esp. since under this Congress PBS fears for its life.

I saw it on FreeSpeechTV, though, and it was very enlightening.

I'm still trying to figure out why you would purge a voter from the rolls when 1) the name doesn't match, 2) the conviction for someone of another name is in another state, and 3) the real dude is a Christian minister who's always resided in FL and has no criminal record.

Or, how you can purge voter names from the rolls under the grounds they are felons when the person is *still* in jail in another state far away, and blah blah.

The details of how those 90,000 mostly *black* voters got scrubbed from the rolls should have the entire country up in arms.

But no one talks about it. Not here.

You have to go to the UK to find out what's going on under our very noses.

EDIT: Oh, and btw, lest anyone here try to claim I'm a partisan in this matter, guess again. I belong to no political party, never will on religious grounds, and didn't vote for either candidate in the first place. I have no dog in this fight other than basic principles like justice and democracy.


:149:

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to $userinfo[username] again.

 

[lilithu]

There is a big difference between the way the government is supposed to work, and the way the Christian fanatics want it to work. By advocating that the government work the Christian way, then yes, I would have to say that just in the matter of civics they are either unedcuated,

It's also in our constitution that the people can change it if they don't like it.

The politicans themselves are very smart. They know how to get what they want. However when I hear droves of Christians tell me that the US is a "Christian Nation" based on Biblical values, and that the countries founders were all fundamentalist Christians just like them who wanted everyone to be a Christian, I do think they're uneducated. These are the people who vote for religious politicians - if they actually were educated on these matters of government they would see clearly that this isn't the case.

You're not wrong. But they're not wrong either. It depends on what one means by "Founding Fathers." Certainly people like Paine, Jefferson, Madison, Mason and Franklin adovcated religious tolerance and saw secularism as the way to achieve that. But the religious right would be correct to point out that 9 of our original 13 colonies had established churches - that is, official govt sanctioned religions. Mass was Puritan/Congregationalist. Penn was Quaker. Virginia was Anglican. Maryland was Catholic, etc, etc. One of the major motivations for people coming to the "new world" was so that they could practice their religions as they saw fit. (In fact I sometimes think that the reason why the U.S. is so religious compared to Europe is because all the religious fanatics left Europe to come to the colonies.) And most of them were NOT tolerant of differences. This disagreement between the left and the right is not a lack of education. We choose to emphasize different parts of our history.

I cherish the legacy of Madison and Jefferson. But you have to understand, there was a moment in our history when it could have gone either way. That's what made those men so great, because it was NOT a given that the U.S. would be secular and religiously tolerant. A few visionary persons faught hard for that. And they knew that at any time their victories could be lost if people got lax and complacent, which is what we're doing now.

Did you also that our public schools used to start each day with bible readings. That stores were required to close on Sunday to take a day of rest? These things did not end until well into the 20th century. A lot of the things that the religious right is trying to instate into our civic life is stuff that used to be there and got taken out. From their perspective, they really are trying to defend "the American way of life."

So, if I'm not supposed to think these people are uneducated, what am I supposed to think?

That there are different groups in the U.S. who have different visions of what the U.S. should be. But my main point is that they are currently winning, and we are letting them win because our only response has been to dismiss them. Even if what you say is true, even if they're uneducated, it still is the case that we ARE moving towards a fundamentalist theocracy. The Republican party is already there - we can't just dismiss them as "loony" anymore.

 

[MaddLlama]

What are you suggesting the solution is, then?

 

[Green Gaia]

We, the voters, must take our country back to a more moderate position. Those who don't like what is happening in regards to religion being forced in the government (and in return on the people) must stand up against it and vote those doing these things out of office. We must vote in people who will look out for the welfare of all people, not just their religion's agenda. Non-Christians should wake up and see what's coming down the road with leaders like the one quoted in the OP.

 

[Booko]

We, the voters, must take our country back to a more moderate position. Those who don't like what is happening in regards to religion being forced in the government (and in return on the people) must stand up against it and vote those doing these things out of office. We must vote in people who will look out for the welfare of all people, not just their religion's agenda. Non-Christians should wake up and see what's coming down the road with leaders like the one quoted in the OP.

Not just non-Christians. There are a lot of Christians I think would not fare so well if extremist Christianity took over the gov't.

 

[Green Gaia]

Not just non-Christians. There are a lot of Christians I think would not fare so well if extremist Christianity took over the gov't.

Yeah, but they're not real Christians either....

 

[Pah]

What are you suggesting the solution is, then?

Educating voters! Counter the political rhetoric coming from the pulpit. Get involved in Congressional races both state and national to elect candidates that truely see the promise of America without the religious bias.

 

[Green Gaia]

Counter the political rhetoric coming from the pulpit.

As one who's made political statements from the pulpit before, I'm not sure how to take that. :cover: Or are religious liberals part of the counter?

 

[Pah]

Counter the political rhetoric coming from the pulpit.

As one who's made political statements from the pulpit before, I'm not sure how to take that. :cover: Or are religious liberals part of the counter?

Didn't quite phrase that correctly, did I? The lies and distortion and the bigotry needs to be countered whether it is from pulpit, press release, or proposed law.

 

[lilithu]

What are you suggesting the solution is, then?

I don't see an easy "solution" as in something that we can do that will solve the problem once and for all.

The Religious Right has the right to advocate their point of view, just as the left has the right to advocate ours and the moderates have the right to advocate theirs, etc. What they don't have the right to do, as pah points out, is be deceptive about things. And they have been deceptive about things. Booko elaborated what Harris did in Florida. It was despicable. And yet, as booko said, no one talks about it here.

The only solution that I see requires hard work and diligence, to hold them accountable for the wrongs that they commit and to point out to the American public that this really is a choice between different worldviews - it's about who we want to be as Americans. The Dems have been trying to pass themselves off as "Republican-lite." If one is given the choice between Republican-lite and the real thing, why would anyone pick the lite version? Let's tell people what's at stake and give them a real choice. And then... well, we get the govt that we deserve, right?

 

[Sunstone]

We, the voters, must take our country back to a more moderate position. Those who don't like what is happening in regards to religion being forced in the government (and in return on the people) must stand up against it and vote those doing these things out of office. We must vote in people who will look out for the welfare of all people, not just their religion's agenda. Non-Christians should wake up and see what's coming down the road with leaders like the one quoted in the OP.

One of the things that's happening these days is people are increasingly seeking their news and opinions from folks who will only tell them exactly what they want to hear. To an "outsider" the propaganda of the Religious Right might appear so false that one can only assume it's just a matter of time before the house of cards collapses. But true believers isolate themselves from anything that disagrees with their own position, anything that would challenge them to have something other than a simplistic view of the world. I live in Colorado Springs, which is a conservative Christian community for the most part, and the local media is for the most part pretty deferential to the opinions of conservative Christians. Even the local "alternative" tabloid is deferential, although the locals consider it radically different from anything they hear elsewhere. The folks here are not going to rebell against the Republican Party in our life times.

 

[CaptainXeroid]

What are you suggesting the solution is, then?

The first and simplest answer is to stop telling people that America is a Constitutional Republic and NOT A democracy.:ignore: I don't know exactly how or why that lie got started, but until Americans are re-educated on this point, they will feel that the majority has a 'God given' right to run roughshod over any minority opinion.

Anyway...for many years, Christians felt like their values were being 'pushed' aside by the 'liberal' courts in favor of 'secular humanism' in many aspects of public life. Whether that perception is fair or even in the vicinity of being accurate, it has driven many of them to support candidates who claim to 'protect Conservative values'.

I don't think Harris is calling for an 'overthrow' more than she is just trying to 'fire up' the Conservative base. I'm currently on vacation in the Sunshine State:beach:, and with primaries coming up soon, every other ad on local TV is political. Just about all the Rebublicans down here are running on Jeb Bush's coattails, because not withstandings opinions on his brother, he seems to be enjoying increased popularity here.

Fortunately, when I go for a walk on the beach, I see no political ads or posters. Just people having fun in the sun.