Christian - Baptism

[Super Universe]

You highlight and underline the words of John, that he baptizes with water, to emphasize importance but you do not highlight nor underline the rest of the sentence that says Jesus will baptize with the Holy Ghost and fire. Are you suggesting that what John says or does supercedes Jesus?

I'm not out of context? Everything inside the first sentence with quotes is my words and my questions.

Baptism now is obedience to God? Really? When did God say that this is a practice that we must do? In all of His teachings, somehow He left that one out. Haven't you ever wondered who came up with the whole death (down in the water), burial (stay submerged for a second), and resurrection thing? Sounds like a human invention to me.

Why can't we just believe in God? Why do we have to prove it to others and do these rituals to prove it to ourself that we believe? This is proof of a lack of faith, this belief that the performance of rituals will win God's heart. Trust that you have His love regardless of whether you were submerged or not.

Ahh... It wouldn't be a true fire and brimstone sermon without a passage from Revelations.

Somewhere religious belief hangs precariously on a single nightmare of John as if his words supercede those of the Son.

Do not attempt to create fear here or anywhere. I know there is nothing to be afraid of. I am in no hurry. There is no set time table for me. I abide by no human rules because my own are superior, unwavering, and self enforced.

We violate His law? You mean that humans caused the flood that killed millions? Humans murdered the Pharoah's children and soldiers?

Truly the only real laws are the laws of physics. It is impossible to violate them.

We must? Your rules apply to you only. We must do what? Do all these things that some human says we must do? Then if it is a rule that you apply to yourself then go and follow this human who says this. It is your right to follow a man and depend on him to tell you what to do.

 

[sojourner]

Christ came to find the lost? Then why did He leave? Why did He not remain and continue to this day to preach from the mount?

The church mediates Christ to the world? The church mediates it's version of Him to the world. It elevates the Son to an equal level with God although The Son never said this or meant to imply it was so. Jesus preached about His Father a great deal but for some even the Son of God is not enough.

The church also mediates it's specific rituals to the world. Would any church that believes in submergence baptism accept a sprinkling baptism? Doubtful. You have to perform the rite of passage of that particular group, then pay your dues, and get a membership card, only then (they believe) will Christ know you exist.

Many church groups do great work providing for those in need, without a doubt.

Jimmy Swaggart the standard for ministers? I sure hope not. All ministers are not a bad idea, neither are all religions. Many people need their help to get through difficult times in their lives but if someone goes to a church for a few years and still needs them, well then they just haven't learned anything.

God is not going to break down the church door to help them, they need to open the door in their mind on their own. He is just on the other side, waiting there now.

So I am invited to join your group?

But I'm sure the invitation is only as long as I comply with your church tenets, right? I must become baptized in your specific way and do whatever else you have set as your rules for salvation because Christ will not accept me unless I have a current membership card.

Christ didn't leave. He sent his Spirit to be with us. The Church is the Body of Christ on earth.

Absolutely! What's wrong with that? In your interpretation.

Untrue. My church believes in believer's baptism by immersion, yet, we always accept prior baptism by any form, at any age. I know several people who have been accepted into the R.C. Church, by virtue of prior baptism, too...and the Episcopal Church recognizes other forms of baptism, as well.

But that doesn't mean that the office of clergy is to blame for being inherently faulty.

Absolutely!

Of course you are!!! In order to be a member (have your name entered in our membership rolls and have the privilege of voting in assemblies and be eligible to hold office) you must be baptized. However, our church accepts all prior baptisms, and we don't double-check what you tell us. We assume you're responsible for yourself. You may come in and worship, fellowship, work, play, participate fully without being a member. We don't follow specific tenets, other than that we believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. I would not baptize you if you had been previously baptized...unless you felt it necessary or desirable. We have no specific "rules for salvation." We believe that Christ accepts all. This part of the Church is not narrow and closed. You would be accepted fully here -- and all without a membership card.

 

[Super Universe]

Christ does not only choose those who pick a certain church of man. Jesus came for all and even though He was born to Jewish people He did not choose them over others, He did not assume the leadership over this one group. Christ, like His Father, does not put one group above another. He does not put one man above another.

What's wrong with a church mediating it's version of Christ to the world? Nothing as long as it does no harm.

My interpretation is that Jesus is the Son of God? True. Jesus came to teach us about His Father. You may believe He came to die upon the cross as salvation for our souls but our souls have always had salvation. This was a symbolic gesture.

The clergy is not to blame for being faulty? Who do we blame if not men? I blame those who make mistakes just as I am blamed for mine but my blame is not hatred, it is just an accounting for a wrong. Anyone who chooses to follow a single man will at some point be disappointed.

The church does have a job, to gather those who need the kind of structure that it can provide. Build people up, give them a foundation, and when they begin asking the tough questions, the ones you cannot answer, then they will move on.

Thank you for your invitation. I'm sure it is honest but in the future when I visit a church it will only be to drop off fresh fruit and vegetables for the homeless they provide for.

 

[sojourner]

Of course Christ has chosen all humanity. The Church is that body of people who have chosen him, as well. There is no special status afforded to these people, other than that they enjoy a greater and closer relationship than non-believers do. You, as a believer, are part of the Church -- the Body of Christ, even if you never darken the door of a congregation, or align yourself with any one group.

Your interpretation is non-trinitarian. You say that the Church is teaching something that is inaccurate. I say it is not. The Church's "version" of Christ is one that is historically and spiritually valid. And it mediates that perspective to the world. As it happens, I do not espouse substitutionary atonement. I believe that God became one of us in the person of Jesus in order to draw us to God's self. The sacrifice was symbolic...but it was real, too, because it was a physical act carried out in a physical world. It was a real part of the whole Christ-event that drew humanity to God.

I agree. One shouldn't follow the minister, but Christ. However, if one turns to a minister for guidance and teaching about how to do that, and fails to learn, why is that automatically the minister's fault? Does the seeker take no responsibility for his or her own seeking?

Or not! Many people find a lifelong relationship with the Church to be spiritually fulfilling. Of course the Church cannot answer all questions. That's not its job. The Church's job is to mediate Christ to the world -- and the world to Christ.

Just to show you that there are legitimate, Christian groups out there who do not discriminate or push agendas, and who respect personal points of view and one's location on the spiritual journey. BTW: All donations for relief are cheerfully accepted and given to the poor on the giver's behalf, as Christ instructed us to do.

 

[Baerly]

The comment was made that baptism has nothing to do with getting wet. Please look at (Acts 8:38,39),notice it says they went down both INTO THE WATER... AND WHEN THEY WERE COME UP OUT OF THE WATER........and thee euncih went on his way rejoicing. There is a reason he rejoiced after water baptism,that is because he was taught just what Paul was taught in (Acts 22:16). (Acts 22:16) Teaches us that our sins are not washed away till water baptism. That is why the bible says
Baptism saves (1Peter 3:21). It is at that point that the blood of Jesus washes sins away (Eph.1:7) (Titus 3:5) (Col.2:12) (Eph.5:26).

Please notice the Ethiopian eunich said what doth hinder me to be baptized? in
(Acts 8:36). I guess baptism does involve water after all. - in love Baerly

 

[Bishka]

I guess baptism does involve water after all. - in love Baerly

Contradicting yourself again?

 

[9harmony]

i hope it's okay if i post here...if not feel free to delete.

In the Gospel according to St John, Christ has said: ‘Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.’ 1 The priests have interpreted this into meaning that baptism is necessary for salvation. In another Gospel it is said: ‘He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire’. 2 82
Thus the water of baptism and the fire are one! It cannot mean that the ‘water’ spoken of is physical water, for it is the direct opposite of ‘fire’, and one destroys the other. When in the Gospels, Christ speaks of ‘water’, He means that which causes life, for without water no worldly creature can live—mineral, vegetable, animal and man, one and all, depend upon water for their very being. Yes, the latest scientific discoveries prove to us that even mineral has some form of life, and that it also needs water for its existence.
Water is the cause of life, and when Christ speaks of water, He is symbolizing that which is the cause of Everlasting Life.
This life-giving water of which He speaks is like unto fire, for it is none other than the Love of God, and this love means life to our souls.
By the fire of the Love of God the veil is burnt which separates us from the Heavenly Realities, and with clear vision we are enabled to struggle onward and upward, ever progressing in the paths of virtue and holiness, and becoming the means of light to the world.
There is nothing greater or more blessed than the Love of God! It gives healing to the sick, balm to the wounded, joy and consolation to the whole world, and through it alone can man attain Life Everlasting. The essence of all religions is the Love of God, and it is the foundation of all the sacred teachings.
It was the Love of God that led Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, that strengthened Joseph in Egypt and gave to Moses courage and patience. 83
Through the Love of God, Christ was sent into the world with His inspiring example of a perfect life of self-sacrifice and devotion, bringing to men the message of Eternal Life. It was the Love of God that gave Muhammad power to bring the Arabs from a state of animal degradation to a loftier state of existence.
God’s Love it was that sustained the Báb and brought him to his supreme sacrifice, and made his bosom the willing target for a thousand bullets.
Finally, it was the Love of God that gave to the East Bahá’u’lláh, and is now sending the light of His teaching far into the West, and from Pole to Pole.
Thus I exhort each of you, realizing its power and beauty, to sacrifice all your thoughts, words and actions to bring the knowledge of the Love of God into every heart.

Paris Talks, Pages 81-83: gr3

 

[lunamoth]

i hope it's okay if i post here...if not feel free to delete.

Paris Talks, Pages 81-83: gr3

Very nice.

luna

 

[Baerly]

The BIBLE says baptism saves (1Peter 3:21).

The bible says sins are washed away at the point of water baptism (Acts 22:16).

The bible says one is not saved until he is baptized according to (Mark 16:16).
Believe + Baptism = saved


The bible says Repent + Be Converted (Baptized) = Blotting out sins (Acts 3:19)

Seems to me the bible puts alot of emphasis upon the point of baptism. Kinda like when Naaman was cleansed of his leprosy by being baptized in water (2Kings 5). (Rom.15:4) (1Cor.10:11) both tell us to learn from what happened in the O.T.

God used water on many occasions to save some and to destroy others,Israelites coming out of Egypt,Naaman,Noah and the ark. He just brought that same idea over into the new testament. Many mocked Noah while he was building the ark.This went on for many years,but when the flood came they realized his warnings were true and he was not crazy after all. But then it was too late. So it will be on the day of Judgment for us. Baerly

 

[sojourner]

The Bible says lots of other stuff, too.

What about Holy Tradition -- the tradition that has been handed down from those who knew Jesus? What does it say?

What is reasonable?

What does a person feel him or herself called to do?

Where is the person's heart?

The Biblical culture does put a lot of emphasis on Baptism. It's a paradigm that we need to be aware of in our spiritual journey. However, when we become too formulaic, we take the spiritual aspect out of the washing and make it just another "necessary" ritual.

 

[writer]

109 The BIBLE says baptism saves (1Peter 3:21).
Mark 16:16 of the Bible says it doesn't save from condemnation (eternal).
"He who doesn't believe'll be condemned"

The bible says sins are washed away at the point of water baptism (Acts 22:16).
1 Pet 3:21 of the Bible says baptism's "not a putting away of the filth [sin] of the flesh;" much less are sins only washed away at the point of water baptism

The bible says one is not saved until he is baptized according to (Mark 16:16).
Believe + Baptism = saved
Mark 16:16 of the Bible doesn't say that one's not saved in any sense of the word until he's baptized.
Mark 16:16 "he who believes and's baptized shall be saved, but he who doesn't believe shall be condemned"
resembles
John 3:18, 5
"he who believes into Him's not condemned, but he who doesn't believe's been condemned already, because he hasn't believed into the name of the only begotten Son of God/Unless one's born of water and the Spirit he can't enter into the kingdom of God."
Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21; and Rm 10:9; etc of the Bible say "everyone who calls audibly on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
"Confess with your mouth + believe in your heart = saved"

The bible says Repent + Be Converted (Baptized) = Blotting out sins (Acts 3:19)
Acts 3:19 says not baptism or baptized

Seems to me the bible puts alot of emphasis upon the point of baptism. Kinda like when Naaman was cleansed of his leprosy by being baptized in water (2Kings 5). (Rom.15:4) (1Cor.10:11) both tell us to learn from what happened in the O.T.
Then learn that salvation's more complex than one simple aspect.
By faith alone one's justified (cleansed, forgiven, of sins; Romans 3:25, 28, 30; 4:10; Acts 10:43; 13:38-39; 8:37; 2:21; 9:5; Rm 10:9; Exodus 12).
By baptism one's separated from the world, saved from Satan's armies and Satan's destruction (Exodus 14:30; Mark 16:16; 1 Cor 10:1-5; Genesis 7:23; Acts 22:16; 2:38; 1 Pet 3:20-21). Baptism isn't involved with eternal salvation.
Thanks

 

[Baerly]

The Bible says lots of other stuff, too.

What about Holy Tradition -- the tradition that has been handed down from those who knew Jesus? What does it say?

If Holy Tradition tells us to do ANYTHING contrary to what the bible says,
it, (Holy Tradition) is wrong according to (Galations 1:6-9) (1Tim.1:3) (1Peter 4:11).

We must speak as the oracles of God (The Bible). (1Peter 4:11) (2Peter 1:20,21).

What is reasonable?

What ever God asks of us or commands us to do is reasonable (Rom.12:1,2) (1Thess.4:1,2) (Phil.3:16).

What does a person feel him or herself called to do?

We are called by the gospel? (2Thess: 2:14) (1Thess.4:1) (Phil.3:16) (1Cor.1:10).

Where is the person's heart?

I don't think I can answere this one for someone else. I think that would be judging motive.I cannot know anothers heart unless they tell me.

The Biblical culture does put a lot of emphasis on Baptism. It's a paradigm that we need to be aware of in our spiritual journey. However, when we become too formulaic, we take the spiritual aspect out of the washing and make it just another "necessary" ritual.

My friend it is not WE who demanded water baptism (or burial), it was the Lord in several passages like (Titus 3:5) (Col.2:12) (Rom.6:3-6) (Gal.3:27) (Acts 2:38) (Acts 3:19),Finally (1Peter 3:21) (1Cor.14:37) says baptism saves us. For baptism to save us we must have been lost before we were baptized. That is a formula Jesus Christ preached to the apostles and they wrote that formula down in the New Testament (John 17:8) (John 14:26 ; 16:13). We best not stray from the words (or commandments) of Jesus (John 12:48).

Please do not charge me with changing the word of God when I try to stand upon those very principles as they are in the bible. in love Baerly

missionprinting.us has many good lessons on all this info. just click on publications.

 

[Baerly]

109
1.) The BIBLE says baptism saves (1Peter 3:21).
Mark 16:16 of the Bible says it doesn't save from condemnation (eternal).
"He who doesn't believe'll be condemned"

The bible says sins are washed away at the point of water baptism (Acts 22:16).
2.) 1 Pet 3:21 of the Bible says baptism's "not a putting away of the filth [sin] of the flesh;" much less are sins only washed away at the point of water baptism

The bible says one is not saved until he is baptized according to (Mark 16:16).
Believe + Baptism = saved
3.) Mark 16:16 of the Bible doesn't say that one's not saved in any sense of the word until he's baptized.
Mark 16:16 "he who believes and's baptized shall be saved, but he who doesn't believe shall be condemned"
resembles
John 3:18, 5
"he who believes into Him's not condemned, but he who doesn't believe's been condemned already, because he hasn't believed into the name of the only begotten Son of God/Unless one's born of water and the Spirit he can't enter into the kingdom of God."
Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21; and Rm 10:9; etc of the Bible say "everyone who calls audibly on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
"Confess with your mouth + believe in your heart = saved"

The bible says Repent + Be Converted (Baptized) = Blotting out sins (Acts 3:19)
Acts 3:19 says not baptism or baptized

Seems to me the bible puts alot of emphasis upon the point of baptism. Kinda like when Naaman was cleansed of his leprosy by being baptized in water (2Kings 5). (Rom.15:4) (1Cor.10:11) both tell us to learn from what happened in the O.T.
4.)Then learn that salvation's more complex than one simple aspect.
By faith alone one's justified (cleansed, forgiven, of sins; Romans 3:25, 28, 30; 4:10; Acts 10:43; 13:38-39; 8:37; 2:21; 9:5; Rm 10:9; Exodus 12).
By baptism one's separated from the world, saved from Satan's armies and Satan's destruction (Exodus 14:30; Mark 16:16; 1 Cor 10:1-5; Genesis 7:23; Acts 22:16; 2:38; 1 Pet 3:20-21). Baptism isn't involved with eternal salvation.
Thanks

1.Jesus will save all those who OBEY HIM (Heb.5:8,9).In every nation he that feareth him and worketh righteousness,is acceptable with him (Acts 10:35). Many who believe will be lost according to (Mt.7:22). The devils also believe and they will not go to heaven. I wonder what it is that makes the difference in these two parties? Could it be people doing what the Lord commands,or as the bible calls it doing righteousness,or truth (John 3:21) (1John 3;7) (John 14:15,21 ; 15:10,14) (1John 5:3) (1John 2:3-5)?

Who does (Titus 2:14) say the Lord will redeem? a people zealous of GOOD WORKS.

2. My Friend if we could insert words as you did in (1Peter 3:21) we could make the bible say anything we wish. You see you make a severe mistake when you equate filth of the flesh to (SIN). That is incorrect in this verse.

This verse is saying: (1Peter 3:21).
A.) water baptism SAVES.

B.) it is not just taking a bath to get dirt off of us,but baptism is in effect doing what (COl.2:12) is telling us. If PART (B) is saying baptism does not wash away our sin, WHY DOES Part (A) say baptism saves? If infact baptism does save, it all makes sense.One must be lost to be saved.One must have their sins to be lost according to (Isaiah 59:1,2).

3.) Please tell me what word is between Believeth and is (-----) Saved in (Mk 16:16)?
The word AND in this verse connects two things together which must be done, (believeth and is baptized) to end up with the result of being SAVED. That is a formula God planned and delivered to man. I did not make this up. Read it for yourself.

(Mark 16:16)-------> Believe + Baptism = Saved

4.) Can you show me anywhere in the bible where it says FAITH ALONE or
GRACE ALONE . Please do not use a PARAPHASED bible. That is dangerous spiritually.

If one is justified, cleansed, forgiven, at the point of belief (or faith alone),WHY oh WHY, does the apostle Paul (SAUL then) still have his sins THREE DAYS LATER after he met the Lord, called on his name, was struck BLIND by the LORD, on the road to Damascus, (Acts 9) (Acts 22:16) ? Pauls sins was not forgiven till he was baptized according to (Acts 22:16) some three days after meeting the Lord on the road.

(Acts 22:16) 1. ARISE, 2. Be Baptized , 3. Wash Away Your Sins, 4. Calling on the Lord.---->That would harmonize with what happen to those on the day of Pentecost,when Peter told them to Repent and be Baptized for the REMISSION of their sins (Acts 2:38).Which would also harmonize with (1Peter 3:21) when it says BAPTISM SAVES. It also harmonizes with Naaman in (2Kings 5). It just all makes sense to me.Just a thought. Baerly

 

[writer]

113 Jesus will save all those who OBEY HIM (Heb.5:8,9).
do u suggest, Baerly, that someone disagrees w/ u on that here?

In every nation he that feareth him and worketh righteousness,is acceptable with him (Acts 10:35).
This was before Cornelius was saved! Before he was baptized. This was spoken in view of Christ's redemption and God's pick of him

Many who believe will be lost according to (Mt.7:22).
To the contrary; none who believe will perish eternally, Jn 6:37; 10:28-29.
Mt 7:21-23 says not "lost."
It refers to the discipline of a thousand years (cf Rv 2:7, 11, 17, 26; 3:5, 12, 21; 20:4)

The devils also believe and they will not go to heaven.
Christ's coming from heaven to earth.
No "devils" will rule with Him. In heaven or on earth.
Demons in James 2, do not believe into Christ. They, perhaps like Mohammed, believe that God's one

My Friend if we could insert words as you did in (1Peter 3:21) we could make the bible say anything we wish.
To the contrary, dear B: you're "inserting words" in 1 P 3:21 if your teaching claims Peter there's speaks of bathtub dirt

You see you make a severe mistake when you equate filth of the flesh to (SIN). That is incorrect in this verse.
To the contrary: it's neither severe mistake nor mistake period. Peter's not so stupid as to be telling folks baptism's not bath for hygiene

This verse is saying: (1Peter 3:21).
A.) water baptism SAVES.
Do u suggest that i dispute that?

B.) it is not just taking a bath to get dirt off of us,
Is that what u think people thot, B, or what u thot: that baptism was hygiene?
In the total letter of 1 P up to, after, and including 3:21 Peter addresses sin with words like "undefiled," "lusts," "ignorance," "Lamb without blemish and without spot," "guileless," "fleshly lusts," "manner of life," "evildoers," "evil," "guile," "bore up our sins," "filth," "licentiousness, lusts, debaucheries, carousings, drinking bouts, lawless idolatries," "flood of dissoluteness," etc.
Just as in the rest of the NT.
Hence to suggest that Peter means physical dirt of a bathtub in 1 P 3:21 is incorrect, to say the least.

If PART (B) is saying baptism does not wash away our sin, WHY DOES Part (A) say baptism saves?
Good question. Becuz baptism saves in different ways. Just like Mk 16:16 and Exo 14 indicates. Noah's sins weren't washed away by the flood. The flood washed away the world to Noah

One must be lost to be saved.
To the contrary: it depends on the context. For instance, the Israelites were saved from death by their passover. But they weren't yet saved from Egypt and Pharaoh. Those were 2 discrete salvations, of course part of God's full salvation. Which even then wasn't fulfilled for all til they got to God's good land.

One must have their sins to be lost according to (Isaiah 59:1,2).
You're correct if you're pointin out that different passages may have different contexts, B

Please tell me what word is between Believeth and is (-----) Saved in (Mk 16:16)?
The word AND in this verse connects two things together which must be done,
If, dear B, you're gonna answer your own q, why ask me?

(believeth and is baptized) to end up with the result of being SAVED. That is a formula God planned and delivered to man. I did not make this up. Read it for yourself.
R u suggestin i disagree w/ that?

(Mark 16:16)-------> Believe + Baptism = Saved
amen.
But Mark 16:16 has more than one clause.
It haz 2.
2 clauses.
Since you've kindly supplied the first, i'll do the 2nd. Again.
"but he who doesn't believe shall be condemned."
The second clause, deliberately, and properly, says nothing about baptism.
It duzn't contradict the first clause ("he who believes and's baptized shall be saved").
The 1st clause duzn't contradict it.
Rather they're two separate thoughts.
Grammatically. Spiritually. Actually. Literally. Properly. And truly. Like u said:
Read it for yourself.

Can you show me anywhere in the bible where it says FAITH ALONE or
GRACE ALONE . Please do not use a PARAPHASED bible. That is dangerous spiritually.
I alreadly have to you. Several times. Perhaps this time too you'll fail to comment.
"For we account that a man's justified by faith APART FROM THE WORKS OF THE LAW," Rm 3:28. "Apart from the works of the law" = "alone," if i understand your request. Abraham's faith was even "alone," before, without, his circumcision, firstly, Rm 4

If one is justified, cleansed, forgiven, at the point of belief (or faith alone),WHY oh WHY, does the apostle Paul (SAUL then) still have his sins THREE DAYS LATER after he met the Lord, called on his name, was struck BLIND by the LORD, on the road to Damascus, (Acts 9) (Acts 22:16) ?
Cuz faith's often invisible to human eyes. And Saul sinned against believers too. Not only God

Pauls sins was not forgiven till he was baptized according to (Acts 22:16) some three days after meeting the Lord on the road.
To the contrary of CoC's false teaching as to Saul's sins against God:
"In this One everyone who believes is justified/Believe on the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved/Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption which's in Christ Jesus; whom God set forth as a propitiation place through faith in His blood, for the demonstrating of His righteousness," Acts 13:39; 16:31; Rm 3:24-25; Acts 9:5, 11; Rm 10:9-13 (cf 1 Jn 1:9);
as Paul said, wrote, and experienced.
Thanks

 

[PHOTOTAKER]

john 3:3-7
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

these things are very clear in the scriptors; one that every person who beleves on Jesus Christ will have eternal life and two in order to see the kindom of God you must be baptized of water and of sprit... the water reprasents the death and reserition of the body and the sprit is the baptisom by the holy ghost, the combenation of the two is how sins are forgiven.

athough some might say that grace is how we are saved or by works alone, each alone is false docren this evadance can be found in any early christion writings. works and grace works to geather as a pear; you wouldn't say to a pear of sessors this single blade of the sessors is better? no you would use the whole pear for they are both nessary to fullfill its function.

i thank this is a good early christion quote on the subjest:
Clement of Rome, who was a companion of the apostle Paul,... wrote,"It is nessary, therefore, that we be prompt in the practice of good works. For He forewarns us, "Behold, the Lord comes and His reward is before his face, to render to every man according to his works.""

and this one:

Hermas, who wrote sometime between the years 100 and 140, stated,"Only those who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God....But I implore you to obey His comanments, and you will have a cure for your former sins."

 

[sojourner]

What about Holy Tradition -- the tradition that has been handed down from those who knew Jesus? What does it say?

If Holy Tradition tells us to do ANYTHING contrary to what the bible says,
it, (Holy Tradition) is wrong according to (Galations 1:6-9) (1Tim.1:3) (1Peter 4:11).

We must speak as the oracles of God (The Bible). (1Peter 4:11) (2Peter 1:20,21).

What is reasonable?

What ever God asks of us or commands us to do is reasonable (Rom.12:1,2) (1Thess.4:1,2) (Phil.3:16).

What does a person feel him or herself called to do?

We are called by the gospel? (2Thess: 2:14) (1Thess.4:1) (Phil.3:16) (1Cor.1:10).

Where is the person's heart?

I don't think I can answere this one for someone else. I think that would be judging motive.I cannot know anothers heart unless they tell me.

The Biblical culture does put a lot of emphasis on Baptism. It's a paradigm that we need to be aware of in our spiritual journey. However, when we become too formulaic, we take the spiritual aspect out of the washing and make it just another "necessary" ritual.

My friend it is not WE who demanded water baptism (or burial), it was the Lord in several passages like (Titus 3:5) (Col.2:12) (Rom.6:3-6) (Gal.3:27) (Acts 2:38) (Acts 3:19),Finally (1Peter 3:21) (1Cor.14:37) says baptism saves us. For baptism to save us we must have been lost before we were baptized. That is a formula Jesus Christ preached to the apostles and they wrote that formula down in the New Testament (John 17:8) (John 14:26 ; 16:13). We best not stray from the words (or commandments) of Jesus (John 12:48).

Please do not charge me with changing the word of God when I try to stand upon those very principles as they are in the bible. in love Baerly

I don't find an instance where Holy Tradition "tells us to do anything contrary to what the Bible says." I do find that Holy Tradition has done its best to keep us relevant to the message of Christ and the apostles.

I'ts also reasonable to reevaluate the Bibical messaage in light of our own culture, and our own time.

But it is we who interpret what the Bible is telling us to do.

I'm not charging you with changing the word of God. I'm charging you with presenting your interpretation as God's very word.

 

[PHOTOTAKER]

I'ts also reasonable to reevaluate the Bibical messaage in light of our own culture, and our own time.

would you say that it would help that we recive new messages from God instead of trying to interpet the old?

But it is we who interpret what the Bible is telling us to do.

IN your mind is if better for man to interpit or the Holy Ghost?

I'm not charging you with changing the word of God. I'm charging you with presenting your interpretation as God's very word.

i know this is directed with some one else; but, how do you view the evangelest that convect people of there sins?

 

[Baerly]

john 3:3-7
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

these things are very clear in the scriptors; one that every person who beleves on Jesus Christ will have eternal life and two in order to see the kindom of God you must be baptized of water and of sprit... the water reprasents the death and reserition of the body and the sprit is the baptisom by the holy ghost, the combenation of the two is how sins are forgiven.

athough some might say that grace is how we are saved or by works alone, each alone is false docren this evadance can be found in any early christion writings. works and grace works to geather as a pear; you wouldn't say to a pear of sessors this single blade of the sessors is better? no you would use the whole pear for they are both nessary to fullfill its function.

i thank this is a good early christion quote on the subjest:
Clement of Rome, who was a companion of the apostle Paul,... wrote,"It is nessary, therefore, that we be prompt in the practice of good works. For He forewarns us, "Behold, the Lord comes and His reward is before his face, to render to every man according to his works.""

and this one:

Hermas, who wrote sometime between the years 100 and 140, stated,"Only those who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God....But I implore you to obey His comanments, and you will have a cure for your former sins."

I find an interesting passage in the bible old and new. The scriptures talks about holding up holy hands (1Tim.2:8) (Psalms 28:2) (Lev.9:22) (Ex.17:10-14). In my mind this is talking about encouraging those of us who are like minded with God to continue the fight. Sometimes some one comes from what seems to be out of nowhere to encourage us. Oh how blessed we are when such a thing happens. It is good to know people still contend for THE FAITH which was ONCE DELIVERED (Jude 3). Thank You ,Baerly

 

[PHOTOTAKER]

I find an interesting passage in the bible old and new. The scriptures talks about holding up holy hands (1Tim.2:8) (Psalms 28:2) (Lev.9:22) (Ex.17:10-14). In my mind this is talking about encouraging those of us who are like minded with God to continue the fight. Sometimes some one comes from what seems to be out of nowhere to encourage us. Oh how blessed we are when such a thing happens. It is good to know people still contend for THE FAITH which was ONCE DELIVERED (Jude 3). Thank You ,Baerly

it is not my doctrine nor my interpretation... its Jesus Christ's Gospel and is Jesus Christ's interpretation though the Holy Ghost...

how ever in Mark 16:16 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

it is interesting to me that baptism can only accrue if a person "believeth." i would imagine that every Christian would agree with what i just said. but how can a babe "believeth" if the only thing a babe can do is suck and have no knowledge of the world. i have read most baptisms for babes and found that the wording is for the parents and not for the child. than how can a babe believeth in anything if he or she cannot talk. further more how is that infant to know whether or not he or she has been baptized if there is no one to tell he or she. and the scriptures also tell that we must also repent of our sins. what sins have a babe commented? Jesus said "suffer the little children...for theres is the kingdom of heaven" (Matt 19:14; Mark 10:14; Luke 18:16) that doesn't sound like God will condemn little children to go the depths of hell if they are not baptized. this doctrine is lacking the love of a father in heaven to me; that a babe is sinful from birth, its more of a Greek philosophy than any Christian one that i know of... so the real question is can a babe "believe?"

 

[sojourner]

would you say that it would help that we recive new messages from God instead of trying to interpet the old?

I would say that the Biblical message is the Biblical message, and that each successive generation and each different culture approaches that message from a slightly different perspective. Therefore, each will interpret the message differently, and in a manner that is most reasonable to them and most readily relates the scriptural message to the moral and spiritual mind set of that generation. It is not unreasonable to view the Biblical message as broad enough to encompass all times and cultures, but it is unreasonable to narrow the Biblical message such that it either ostracizes some cultures, or forces every culture into the world view, morals and social expression of an ancient, Middle-East culture.

New messages build upon, but do not replace the message, as we find it interpreted in scripture.

IN your mind is if better for man to interpit or the Holy Ghost?

It is always humanity that interprets, for interpretation is a human activity. We do that (hopefully) with the help of the HS. Using the HS as a "trump card," in which our reasoned ideas and perspectives are disguised (or mistaken) as the pure thoughts of the HS translated directly into our brains, is irresponsible. God gave us minds to think and hearts to interpret. We Christians do so with the help of the HS -- but they are still our interpretations.

i know this is directed with some one else; but, how do you view the evangelest that convect people of there sins?

What does this have to do with my argument that Baerly's interpretation was presented as God's very word?

It is not unreasonable for different people of different traditions to hold different views of what constitutes a "proper" baptism, and what that means. The fact that we all hold baptism in high esteem -- as a work of grace -- should be celebrated as one of the "essentials" of the Faith that we hold in common. To debate the picayune details and assert that our own viewpoint is the only "correct" one, that God ordained, only serves to diminish the sacrament and drag it through the mire of human hubris. That the Faithful (of whatever ilk) should approach God in baptism, whatever the form or method, should always be cause for unity, not an instrument of division.