• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Christian - Baptism

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
While I don't think baptism is necessary, it is an act of obedience, a gift from God, and a sacrament, whereby God is revealed to us. My question is this: Putting aside the formulas and mechanics that many subscribe to for the moment, why even ask the question? Baptism is an act for believers to carry out before God, and a gift that God bestows upon believers. Why would a believer not desire to participate in that sacrament? Why would God not desire to bestow that gift upon a believer?

What's the point of asking if it's necessary? It's sort of putting the cart before the horse. Most believers view it as necessary, so most believers will desire to participate. I don't believe God looks to see if your head is wet. God looks into your heart to see where your desire draws you.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
For the Catholic, baptism is not just something decorative. God really does regenerate: "He saved us . . . by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit . . . so that we might be justified by his grace" (Titus 3:5–7).

The Catholic doctrine of baptism unites the symbol and the reality. It is because of the union of the symbol...water...with the reality....the Holy Spirit...that the apostle Peter can say, "baptism now saves you." It is the same idea as Jesus said in John 3:5, "Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." Being born of the water and the Spirit is an explanation of what he says in verse 3, "Unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
sojourner said:
While I don't think baptism is necessary, it is an act of obedience, a gift from God, and a sacrament, whereby God is revealed to us. My question is this: Putting aside the formulas and mechanics that many subscribe to for the moment, why even ask the question? Baptism is an act for believers to carry out before God, and a gift that God bestows upon believers. Why would a believer not desire to participate in that sacrament? Why would God not desire to bestow that gift upon a believer?

What's the point of asking if it's necessary? It's sort of putting the cart before the horse. Most believers view it as necessary, so most believers will desire to participate. I don't believe God looks to see if your head is wet. God looks into your heart to see where your desire draws you.

I believe absolutely, positively, 100%, without a doubt that God exists and that He created the universe but I will not be baptised.

Rather than perform rituals we can prove our faith by choosing to do good. This is far better than any ritual you can come up with.
 

Baerly

Active Member
sojourner said:
While I don't think baptism is necessary, it is an act of obedience, a gift from God, and a sacrament, whereby God is revealed to us. My question is this: Putting aside the formulas and mechanics that many subscribe to for the moment, why even ask the question? Baptism is an act for believers to carry out before God, and a gift that God bestows upon believers. Why would a believer not desire to participate in that sacrament? Why would God not desire to bestow that gift upon a believer?

What's the point of asking if it's necessary? It's sort of putting the cart before the horse. Most believers view it as necessary, so most believers will desire to participate. I don't believe God looks to see if your head is wet. God looks into your heart to see where your desire draws you.

My friend,How are you? Can a gift from God be an act of obedience on the part of man? I do not think so. Everything God does for mankind is called GRACE.
The world,God sending Jesus,forgivness of sins,even the N.T.LAW is a part of Grace according to (Titus 2:11,12). On the other hand What man does in responce to God is works or an act of faith (Heb.11). Everything from Belief (John 6:29) to baptism (Acts 22:16) to living a good moral life is a work.

The question is when does God take my sins away.That is the big question.When we answere that question we can tell exactly when we have a relationship with God. When we answere that question we will also be able to tell at which point we become a christians and here is why. God can have no part with man until his sins are forgiven according to (Isaiah 59:1,2). Does the bible tell us when sins are forgiven? Yes it does,We find that information in (Acts 22:16). This was the point the apostle Paul had his sins washed away. Anyone who will every answere the gospel call of (2Thess.2:14) will have their sins wahsed away the same way the apostle Paul did.The bible says to speak the same thing (1Cor.1:10). Speak as the oracles of God (1Peter 4:11). If we speak the same thing as the bible we will say sins are washed away at the point of water baptism (1Peter 3:21) (Titus 3:5) (Eph.5:26) (Acts 2:38). Once we understand when sins are washed away according to the bible,we can understand why water baptism in necessary for salvation. Only the good and honest heart will accept this bible principle (Luke 8:15) (Matt.7:7).

Believers can be lost just like ole Satan is lost,and he believed. In fact he is going to hell,but he believes in Jesus and so do the demons. Please notice (John 1:12) As many as received him,to them gave he POWER TO BECOME the sons of God even to them that believe on his name. This scripture only says the Lord gave people power to become the sons of God,He did not say they were sons of God at the point of belief. And the bible does not teach that either. One must take the sum total of Gods teachings on a particular subject and make an educated decision based on the word of God. Then and only then can the plan of salvation have any affect upon the individual (Gal.1:6-9).

Please notice the apostle Paul believed on the road to Damascus,but his sins were not washed away till the point of water baptism (Acts 22:16). Every person who is on this side of the crucifixion will be saved just like the apostle Paul. I did not say that,the word of God said it. That makes baptism essential to salvation.Not only that but the bible says baptism saves (1Peter 3:21). That seems to harmonize with (Acts 22:16). God used water as the line of demarkation all through the O.T. now he has done it in the N.T.-in love Baerly
 

Baerly

Active Member
Super Universe said:
I believe absolutely, positively, 100%, without a doubt that God exists and that He created the universe but I will not be baptised.

Rather than perform rituals we can prove our faith by choosing to do good. This is far better than any ritual you can come up with.

Hello,how are you? You know Naaman the lepor said just about what your saying at one point about baptism (2Kings 5). We are to learn from the O.T. (Rom 15:4). Maybe ole Naaman can help us to realize that our pride can cost us alot if we do not part with it. Also the Pharoah of Egypt had alot of pride.He would not submit to the will of God till it cost him much more than he wanted to lose. I pray people will humble themselves and accept the simple word of God (2Cronicles 7:14).--in love Baerly

It was good that Naaman had a friend who talked him into obeying God on his terms.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Can a gift from God be an act of obedience on the part of man?
Yes! It's about relationship -- interaction. God offers and we receive. We offer in return and God acknowledges. It's both.

Everything God does for mankind is called GRACE.
And everything humanity does is in response to that grace that is offered. Sometimes we respond in obedience, sometimes we don't.

When we answere that question we can tell exactly when we have a relationship with God.
We always have some kind of relationship with God. Sometimes, it's just not a very good one!

When we answere that question we will also be able to tell at which point we become a christians
We become Christians when we heed Christ's call to follow him.

God can have no part with man until his sins are forgiven according to (Isaiah 59:1,2).
And yet, God searches for his lost "sheep" until God finds them. God waits at the door for his lost sons to return...and runs to embrace them when he sees them coming. "Then your reward will be great, andyou will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked." (Lk 6)

This was the point the apostle Paul had his sins washed away.
That's too literalistic an interpretation for me. Jesus forgave the sins of many, for many reasons. He forgave the sins of the paralytic. He forgave the sins of the woman with the hemorrhage. He forgave the sins of the prostitute. He forgave the sins of the blind man. He forgave the sins of the thief on the cross. None of these folks were baptized. To place the point of forgiveness on baptism is to do two things: 1) It places the efficacy of grace sqaurely upon our action, 2) It makes baptism into a magic act instead of a sacrament.

Only the good and honest heart will accept this bible principle (Luke 8:15) (Matt.7:7).
I would respectfully caution you not to make a determination of the condition of another's heart -- especially one whom you don't know. I could just as easily turn "the good soil" and "ask, seek, knock" back upon you for not seeing things "my way."

I applaud you for your developing faith and spiritual walk, but please don't pick up pebbles on your way and throw them at others, just because they're not walking exactly the same path, or wearing the same hiking boots as you. Instead,I invite you to "walk in love as Christ has loved us, and gave himself for us, an offering and sacrifice to God."

One must take the sum total of Gods teachings on a particular subject and make an educated decision based on the word of God. Then and only then can the plan of salvation have any affect upon the individual (Gal.1:6-9).

Again, myopia is a debilitating disorder. Thanks for the condemnation and judgment, but I'm returning it. It doesn't fit. It's like trying to put pantyhose on an ostrich.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Baerly said:
Hello,how are you? You know Naaman the lepor said just about what your saying at one point about baptism (2Kings 5). We are to learn from the O.T. (Rom 15:4). Maybe ole Naaman can help us to realize that our pride can cost us alot if we do not part with it. Also the Pharoah of Egypt had alot of pride.He would not submit to the will of God till it cost him much more than he wanted to lose. I pray people will humble themselves and accept the simple word of God (2Cronicles 7:14).--in love Baerly

It was good that Naaman had a friend who talked him into obeying God on his terms.

I announce that I believe absolutely that God exists and that He created the universe but that I will not be baptized. You ignore the one thing that truly matters in my statement and attach your eyes to the thing that matters not.

My baptism came from heaven. Why would I now seek a blessing from a human?

You think baptism is a requirement from God? Why would He need us to do such a thing? You think God obeys human rituals? God puts no requirements on us other than the laws He set in the beginning.

What other human tradition will you invent to separate yourselves into groups that point their finger in unison at others and declare them to be unworthy?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Super Universe said:
I announce that I believe absolutely that God exists and that He created the universe but that I will not be baptized. You ignore the one thing that truly matters in my statement and attach your eyes to the thing that matters not.

My baptism came from heaven. Why would I now seek a blessing from a human?

You think baptism is a requirement from God? Why would He need us to do such a thing? You think God obeys human rituals? God puts no requirements on us other than the laws He set in the beginning.

What other human tradition will you invent to separate yourselves into groups that point their finger in unison at others and declare them to be unworthy?

While I agree with your post in general, I will address the part I've highlighted in red:

Of course baptism comes from heaven. But a sacrament is also an outward and visible sign. The water is the outward and visible sign. It is revelatory, both to yourself, in a physical way, and to the rest of the Body. It's not a human blessing you're seeking in baptism. In baptism, one seeks the blessing of God, which is mediated through the Church, which is made up of human beings. It's a wonderful way to integrate ourown rebirth with that of the rest of the human family of God. That sign of water allows us, symbolically, to die with Christ and to rise with him to newness of life. That's why we participate in baptism. It's not magic -- it's revelatory.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
And here lies our everlasting disagreement. You think God only gives His blessing to a specific kind of people, those that belong to a certain church or those that do this one ritual. You think a person must prove to other people that he/she believes. God already knows.

We all have God's blessing. It is given freely without an expectation of anything in return. Those without belief in Him still have it. Those in prison. Those who spend their lives in the forrests of Brazil.

But if you must do this harmless thing then do it. If you feel you must prove your faith to others then do it. But I am not you and my revelation does not come from human ritual.
 

Linus

Well-Known Member
Super Universe said:
We all have God's blessing. It is given freely without an expectation of anything in return. Those without belief in Him still have it. Those in prison. Those who spend their lives in the forrests of Brazil.
Sorry, but I don't buy that. According to the Bible (if you'll notice, this is a Christian/Bible-based thread. That doesn't mean you can't participate, but I wanted to see scripturally based arguments), God does expect love and obedience in return. He is not going to allow just anyone into heaven, but only those who who do what he requires. This notion of "everyone is going to heaven no matter what," seems to me a little ridiculous biblically speaking.

Super Universe said:
my revelation does not come from human ritual.
Most participating in this thread would say that baptism is not a human ritual, but a god-given ritual in which humans participate.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Then don't buy it. It's your choice. Do you think I can take away your true God given ability to decide what you must do?

Most would say that baptism is not a human ritual but a God given ritual? Most what? Most people? Doubtful since most of the world does not perform this practice. Where does God say that this practice must be performed?

Most Christians would say that baptism is a God given ritual? Perhaps, but then they argue over a sprinkling of water baptism and complete submergence baptism. These rituals separate people who are truly the same. There is no difference in God's eyes between you and the man who lives out his life in Madigascar.

If this is what you must have to cement your belief in God then go do it. It is a harmless thing until you place extreme importance on it.

Like it or not I am a Christian but I do not put rituals before God. God does not obey human sorcery such at this. You cannot force Him to accept you anymore than He already does.

He does not dance to the tune any of us chooses to play, things are the other way around.
 

Linus

Well-Known Member
Super Universe said:
Then don't buy it. It's your choice. Do you think I can take way your true God given ability to decide what you must do?
Not at all. I was merely expressing my belief and opinion about what you said. You made the claim that God gives his blessings to all regardless, so I then stated why I don't believe that.

Super Universe said:
Most would say that baptism is not a human ritual but a God given ritual? Most what? Most people? Doubtful since most of the world does not perform this practice.
I meant most people who practice the act of baptism in one form or another.

Super Universe said:
Where does God say that this practice must be performed?
This question is the reason I started this thread. I believe that the scriptures are clear in this area, but others do not believe as such. So, since so many disagree, I thought I would begin a discussion about it.

Super Universe said:
If this is what you must have to cement your belief in God then go do it. It is a harmless thing until you place extreme importance on it.
Unless you consider the possible effects it could have on your spiritual standing. If it is a matter of salvation, then there should be an extreme importance placed upon it.

Super Universe said:
Like it or not I am a Christian but I do not put rituals before God. God does not obey human sorcery such at this. You cannot force Him to accept you anymore than He already does.
It's not an issue of putting baptism before God. It's a matter of determining whether or not baptism really is what God wants for our salvation. It isn't about trying to get God to obey us because we did this or that, it's about doing what God wants us to do.


Super Universe said:
He does not dance to the tune any of us chooses to play, things are the other way around.
Amen. I don't think any of us in this discussion is trying to say the opposite. We are merely attempting to decipher what God wants for us.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Why would God want or need us to perform these rituals? Only if He was a truly shallow being like the one blamed for murdering millions in a great flood and sending fireballs from heaven to destroy an ancient city. One who sends plagues upon His Children. One who punishes them forever.

God does none of these terrible things. He never has. It is not possible.

How does someone believe that the Creator of the universe could become so angry at His best creation that He tempts them, tortures them, punishes them, and murders them when doing this violates His own laws?

Those who believe this do so because it makes them feel good about themselves. They don't want mercy for others, those committing sin, they want merciless fire torture.

Any adult who believes this does so of their own choice and only they are responsible for it. What a priest or the bible say is not an acceptable excuse because this is what you choose to believe.

You wish to know what God wants us to do? Become more than you were the day before. Do not stay the same. Learn. Explore. Study and examine every bit of this incredible universe He created. Think of a parent who takes their young child to a playground. Isn't it fun to watch them play?
 

Bruce A. Dagle

New Member
When Jesus was baptised the Holy Spirit came upon Him, seen as dove, Jesus demonstrated what he was opening to us and what He was going to go through. He demonstrated His death and resurrection by being baptised, God the Father demonstrated His giving of the Holy Spirit to those who do the same thing, following Jesus. In salvation you die to the world, you raise to a new thing, it is called being born again, God the Father gives you the Holy Spirit right at that time as He has shown that He would. This is fact, whether we actually do the water baptism or not, however to return the demonstration of what happened to you and what you believe by baptism is a most precious thing between you and God, and should be done, for your own resolve of commitment to the Love of God and the Lordship of His Son Jesus Christ.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Super Universe said:
And here lies our everlasting disagreement. You think God only gives His blessing to a specific kind of people, those that belong to a certain church or those that do this one ritual. You think a person must prove to other people that he/she believes. God already knows.

We all have God's blessing. It is given freely without an expectation of anything in return. Those without belief in Him still have it. Those in prison. Those who spend their lives in the forrests of Brazil.

But if you must do this harmless thing then do it. If you feel you must prove your faith to others then do it. But I am not you and my revelation does not come from human ritual.

No, I think God has blessed all humanity by becoming incarnate, by living among us as one of us, reconciling us to God's self.

I don't have to "prove my faith to others," nor do I have to prove it to myself. However, since I experience things through the physical world, baptism helps to cement and solidify what has been amorphous. By participating in baptism, we have an outward sign that connects us in a special way to other believers, as well as to Christ, by being symbolically buried and raised with him.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Most Christians would say that baptism is a God given ritual? Perhaps, but then they argue over a sprinkling of water baptism and complete submergence baptism. These rituals separate people who are truly the same. There is no difference in God's eyes between you and the man who lives out his life in Madigascar.
You're absolutely right!

You cannot force Him to accept you anymore than He already does.
That's not what baptism attempts to do. Baptism's purpose is to help us accept God more deeply.

He does not dance to the tune any of us chooses to play, things are the other way around.
Not sure I agree 100% with this statement. I think God uses the lemons we produce to make God's lemonade. BUT, God's respect of our freedom of choice does not give us sovereignty. That's the whole symbolic point of baptism -- that we die to self and become absorbed into the unity that is God.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
sojourner said:
No, I think God has blessed all humanity by becoming incarnate, by living among us as one of us, reconciling us to God's self.

I don't have to "prove my faith to others," nor do I have to prove it to myself. However, since I experience things through the physical world, baptism helps to cement and solidify what has been amorphous. By participating in baptism, we have an outward sign that connects us in a special way to other believers, as well as to Christ, by being symbolically buried and raised with him.

If you do not feel the need to prove your faith to others then would you approve of a man going out alone, finding a river, and baptizing himself?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Super Universe said:
If you do not feel the need to prove your faith to others then would you approve of a man going out alone, finding a river, and baptizing himself?

No, because we are baptized into relationship. When one is baptized, one is baptized into the body of Christ (the Church -- not denomination, or congregation, or organization, but the whole body of the faithful). Our faith can be private, but it can never be individual, for our faith entails that we be in relationship (love) with one another. Therefore, baptism cannot be an individual act. It is the act, rather of all those who choose to be in right relationship (the Church). therefore, baptism needs to be an act of the people, not of an individual.
 
Top